Cycling benefits 'outweigh deaths'

On 2004-12-09, wrote:
I don't see how you can take issue with that statement. Of the cyclists
I see on my daily commute to and from the city I reckon about half show
no regard for traffic lights. I remember one afternoon where a guy
following me was doing the right thing stopping at reds whilst just
about everyone else sailed through them. "I reckon it's just you and me
today," is what he said to me. Unfortunately it's all too common an
experience.

I know what you mean. As a cyclist, I understand the temptation: you can
see the road; you know it's safe; you want to keep moving, not stay
stuck at a red light that stays for what seems an interminable period.
As a motorist, though, I also understand the reason for the rule: if you
miss something when checking, run the red, and have an accident ...

There's only one place I can think of where cyclists can justifiably
argue that the light shouldn't apply, and that's on St Kilda Road,
heading south, just north of Melbourne Grammar. You have the road
heading south, and there's another road that curves around to join it in
a sort of curved T intersection. Because of the design of the
intersection, there is virtually no risk for a cyclist (in the bike
lane, anyway) if he (or she) chooses to run the red.

Mind you, I also have issues with a number of speed limits on the road
:-) (Three lanes, each way, divided road ... and it's a 60 kph limit?!
What the fsck are Vicroads smoking?)

--
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On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 at 09:10 GMT, Stuart Lamble (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
On 2004-12-09, wrote:
I don't see how you can take issue with that statement. Of the cyclists
I see on my daily commute to and from the city I reckon about half show
no regard for traffic lights. I remember one afternoon where a guy
following me was doing the right thing stopping at reds whilst just
about everyone else sailed through them. "I reckon it's just you and me
today," is what he said to me. Unfortunately it's all too common an
experience.

I know what you mean. As a cyclist, I understand the temptation: you can
see the road; you know it's safe; you want to keep moving, not stay
stuck at a red light that stays for what seems an interminable period.
As a motorist, though, I also understand the reason for the rule: if you
miss something when checking, run the red, and have an accident ...

And you think that the Camberwell Junction is bad. Just wait until
they take out the lights (they were digging up one of the lights when
I was there this morning), and have police directing the traffic. I
could have sworn I was there for 10 minutes. And you can't simply skip
over to Burke Rd side of things, and get a 2 minute headstart, because
the police are watching

--
TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
vi is [[13~^[[15~^[[15~^[[19~^[[18~^ a
muk[^[[29~^[[34~^[[26~^[[32~^ch better editor than this emacs. I know
I^[[14~'ll get flamed for this but the truth has to be
said. ^[[D^[[D^[[D^[[D ^[[D^[^[[D^[[D^[[B^
exit ^X^C quit :x :wq dang it :w:w:w :x ^C^C^Z^D
-- Jesper Lauridsen from alt.religion.emacs

ritcho wrote:

Bull-**** as in "not right", or Bull-**** as in "nothing new here"?

Motorist copout? Evidently, you read a different report than I...

You must be new around here.

Those two paragraphs always appear together like lamb and mint sauce,
turkey and cranberry sauce, peanut butter and jelly (for the septic
lurkers), or whatever your favourite combination is.

"Terry" == Terry Collins writes:

Terry ritcho wrote:
Bull-**** as in "not right", or Bull-**** as in "nothing new
here"?

Motorist copout? Evidently, you read a different report than I...

Terry You must be new around here.

Terry Those two paragraphs always appear together like lamb and
Terry mint sauce, turkey and cranberry sauce, peanut butter and
Terry jelly (for the septic lurkers), or whatever your favourite
Terry combination is.

Help me out here please because it seems I'm missing something.

How does stating:

"It is important that motorists recognize the rights of cyclists to use
the road and be considerate."

and

"It is equally important for cyclists to know their responsibilities on
the road and follow the rules."

equate to giving the motorist a cop out? Seems to me it's far from bull
**** and more akin to common sense, so what am I missing that's so
obviously raised your hackles?
--
Cheers
Euan

wrote:

"It is important that motorists recognize the rights of cyclists to use
the road and be considerate."

and

"It is equally important for cyclists to know their responsibilities on
the road and follow the rules."

equate to giving the motorist a cop out? Seems to me it's far from bull
**** and more akin to common sense, so what am I missing that's so
obviously raised your hackles?

As I said.

In 30 years, I've never seen a bicycle related media release that
doesn't use something similar to the first paragraph, then immediately
follow up with the second.

If a bicyclist breaks the law and gets injured, it is far greater the
chance that they will pay the consequence. If a motorist breaks the law,
the almost certainty is that someone else will pay the consequences.

And have you ever posted anything other than "but bicyclist deserve it
because they are always breaking the law. Why just last week I
saw....."? You should get a new neighbourhood.

We need more Critical Mass, not arse kissing. 30+ years in this country
has produced bugger all.

"Terry" == Terry Collins writes:



Terry As I said.

Terry In 30 years, I've never seen a bicycle related media release
Terry that doesn't use something similar to the first paragraph,
Terry then immediately follow up with the second.

So what? It's a perfectly reasonable and balanced statement. What
would you prefer? "Motorists must treat cyclists with the utmost
respect and courtesy, but if cyclists want to be law breaking arse holes
then more power to them?" Just what would satisfy you?

Terry If a bicyclist breaks the law and gets injured, it is far
Terry greater the chance that they will pay the consequence. If a
Terry motorist breaks the law, the almost certainty is that someone
Terry else will pay the consequences.

What's that got to do anything? Does that change the validity of the
statement that motorists and cyclists should both respect the law and
use the roads with courtesy? I'd suggest it doesn't.

Terry And have you ever posted anything other than "but bicyclist
Terry deserve it because they are always breaking the law. Why just
Terry last week I saw....."? You should get a new neighbourhood.

Don't recall every saying that cyclists are always breaking the law.
I've said that many cyclists *do*. I'm a cyclist, I don't so QED not
all cyclists break the law.

I like my neighborhood just fine. I ride to work every day, Highett to
the CBD or Highett to East Burwood depending and have ZERO motorist
problems. I put that down to riding with courtesy and obeying the law.

And yes, I do post on other topics. Like stacking on the tram tracks at
the end of Fitzroy Street. Some stuff about panniers and other stuff.

Terry We need more Critical Mass, not arse kissing. 30+ years in
Terry this country has produced bugger all.

I don't class obeying the law as arse kissing, I call it being a
responsible resident. One day I'll be able to say responsible citizen,
but I'm not quite there yet.

I'll reserve comment on Critical Mass, I haven't attended so I don't
know if they're being mis-represented in the press or not.
--
Cheers
Euan

"TimC"
And you think that the Camberwell Junction is bad. Just wait until
they take out the lights (they were digging up one of the lights when
I was there this morning), and have police directing the traffic. I
could have sworn I was there for 10 minutes. And you can't simply skip
over to Burke Rd side of things, and get a 2 minute headstart, because
the police are watching

You'll be right.. they are slow and don't give a
rats about cyclists anyway! It's not like they can
leave the intersection.. :-)

hippy

"suzyj"
cfsmtb wrote:
Here's some breaking news from the world of politix
that maybe of interest to you. Same old message or
important media release?

But... But... Cycling is _dangerous_! Otherwise we wouldn't be
subjected to all that helmet propaganda that tells us if we leave the
house without a helmet then we'l surely be struck down with scabies...
Or was it thrush? Never can remember which. Indeed, I've been having
trouble with remembering stuff ever since that shark bit my head while
I was cycling outside the flags. Or was that without sunscreen?

I hope it was lack of sunscreen.. I have heaps of that..
be buggered if I know where the flags are though!

hippy

Terry Collins Wrote:
ritcho wrote:

Bull-**** as in "not right", or Bull-**** as in "nothing new here"?

Motorist copout? Evidently, you read a different report than I...

You must be new around here.

Those two paragraphs always appear together like lamb and mint sauce,
turkey and cranberry sauce, peanut butter and jelly (for the septic
lurkers), or whatever your favourite combination is.

Hmm, new around here... okay, I haven't been reading ATSB reports fo
30 years. However, the two paragraphs that always appear together ar
perfectly reasonable advice for all road users. They do not give
cop-out to motorists.

Motorcyclists have similar issues regarding the imbalance of risk
posed by accidents with cars and they are issued with similar advice
the use of safety equipment and obeying the law reduce the risk o
being injured on the roads (compared with _not_ using safety equipmen
and disobeying the road rules).

There was no cop-out when the 18yo girl failed right of way at
roundabout and collided with my nice shiny ZX6R. I ended up on th
floor, she ended up with a ticket and an insurance claim (and
bollocking from her frustrated father...)

Ritc

--
ritcho

In article , ritcho
wrote:

Those two paragraphs always appear together like lamb and mint sauce,
turkey and cranberry sauce, peanut butter and jelly (for the septic
lurkers), or whatever your favourite combination is.

ahhhh gin & tonic