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How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur?
How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front
Derailleur? Spirt seems like a superior design concept, given one has the extra cable stop/housing. And front derailleurs seem primitive any way, so is there significantly different better materials that would make the newer Tiagra a superior choice over the Spirt? It doesn not look like many older cast materials, so its hard to visually note material differences from pictures, like with the rear derailleur differences. Thanks!! |
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How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur?
And working with a 53-39t dual DA crank may present constraints size
wise. Thanks Again :-) |
#3
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How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur?
On Feb 19, 8:30 am, "ddog" wrote:
How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur? Spirt seems like a superior design concept, given one has the extra cable stop/housing. And front derailleurs seem primitive any way, so is there significantly different better materials that would make the newer Tiagra a superior choice over the Spirt? It doesn not look like many older cast materials, so its hard to visually note material differences from pictures, like with the rear derailleur differences. I'd call the extra housing a weakness - more housing means more friction. Especially down in that area, where water off the front wheel showers the Bottom Bracket and one end of the housing, and the other end of the housing is pointing straight up, so it's prone to collecting water and rusting. Nonetheless, the biggest difference you'd notice is that the Spirt is reverse-action; i.e. Big ring normal. The Tiagra also has a wider cage to accommodate front indexing. That means more lever throw to make your shift, but also less trimming Otherwise, on a double crank, FDs are about as simple as things get. If you were running a triple, I'd say modern is definitely better, with ramps on the cage matched to a range of ring sizes to push the chain off with less overshifting needed. I had a Spirt on my first 10-speed and I really liked the reverse action. Pull either lever towards you, get an easier gear. It seems to make more sense to have it on the front than on the rear (Rapid-rise) so that it's cable, rather than spring, giving you you lower gears. |
#4
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How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur?
On Feb 19, 11:55 am, "Hank Wirtz" wrote:
I'd call the extra housing a weakness - more housing means more friction. Especially down in that area, where water off the front wheel showers the Bottom Bracket and one end of the housing, and the other end of the housing is pointing straight up, so it's prone to collecting water and rusting. Nonetheless, the biggest difference you'd notice is that the Spirt is reverse-action; i.e. Big ring normal. The Tiagra also has a wider cage to accommodate front indexing. That means more lever throw to make your shift, but also less trimming Otherwise, on a double crank, FDs are about as simple as things get. If you were running a triple, I'd say modern is definitely better, with ramps on the cage matched to a range of ring sizes to push the chain off with less overshifting needed. I had a Spirt on my first 10-speed and I really liked the reverse action. Pull either lever towards you, get an easier gear. It seems to make more sense to have it on the front than on the rear (Rapid-rise) so that it's cable, rather than spring, giving you you lower gears. Hank, Thanks! I appreciate that valuable information. Just 2 more questions please. 1. Is there any 53t constraints like I've noticed on later front derauilleurs to 50t max? 2. Is this the only or latest model of Suntour with cable vs. spring action from big sprocket? Since I rarely if ever (now in flatlands) use my granny gear, it also seems better to have it aligned to larger sprocket vs the one I never or rarely use. And I think there are sealed cable ferrules so that may be a solution for the rain entry in housing - ? Thanks, Phil Bailey |
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How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur?
On Feb 19, 9:11 am, "ddog" wrote:
1. Is there any 53t constraints like I've noticed on later front derauilleurs to 50t max? I used mine with a 52/42 double. I can't imagine that 53 would be a problem. 2. Is this the only or latest model of Suntour with cable vs. spring action from big sprocket? There was a Suntour XC (not XC Pro, not XC Comp, not XC9000, just XC) that was reverse-action, too, designed for triples with a 48-ish big ring, and it didn't require the housing. Very popular among the touring crowd. Since I rarely if ever (now in flatlands) use my granny gear, it also seems better to have it aligned to larger sprocket vs the one I never or rarely use. Braggart. And the small ring on the double isn't called a Granny. A Granny is the smallest ring on a triple. On a double, it's just a small ring. And I think there are sealed cable ferrules so that may be a solution for the rain entry in housing - ? There are now, but there weren't when the derailleur was made thirty years ago. Nor was there plastic housing liner back then. |
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How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur?
On Feb 19, 1:27 pm, "Hank Wirtz" wrote:
On Feb 19, 9:11 am, "ddog" wrote: 1. Is there any 53t constraints like I've noticed on later front derauilleurs to 50t max? I used mine with a 52/42 double. I can't imagine that 53 would be a problem. 2. Is this the only or latest model of Suntour with cable vs. spring action from big sprocket? There was a Suntour XC (not XC Pro, not XC Comp, not XC9000, just XC) that was reverse-action, too, designed for triples with a 48-ish big ring, and it didn't require the housing. Very popular among the touring crowd. Since I rarely if ever (now in flatlands) use my granny gear, it also seems better to have it aligned to larger sprocket vs the one I never or rarely use. Braggart. And the small ring on the double isn't called a Granny. A Granny is the smallest ring on a triple. On a double, it's just a small ring. And I think there are sealed cable ferrules so that may be a solution for the rain entry in housing - ? There are now, but there weren't when the derailleur was made thirty years ago. Nor was there plastic housing liner back then. Fantastic information Hank. And I'm getting full fenders in mail now. After reading Sheldon's site several times, it helped give me guidlines to achieve and fenders was one he stressed to prevent rain damage to drive components. So that will help lower housing corrosion problem as well. And when LBS did change out my front der cable when my plastic Simplex rotted, the cable was rusty after 35 years. So now I know why! Thank You Sir, Phil Bailey |
#7
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How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur?
Someone asked:
How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur? Spirt seems like a superior design concept, given one has the extra cable stop/housing. And front derailleurs seem primitive any way, so is there significantly different better materials that would make the newer Tiagra a superior choice over the Spirt? It doesn not look like many older cast materials, so its hard to visually note material differences from pictures, like with the rear derailleur differences. There's no important difference in materials, but the shape of the front derailer cages on modern front derailers is much more sophisticated, probably thanks to computer analysis of the shifting process. Hank Wirtz wrote: I'd call the extra housing a weakness - more housing means more friction. Especially down in that area, where water off the front wheel showers the Bottom Bracket and one end of the housing, and the other end of the housing is pointing straight up, so it's prone to collecting water and rusting. Yes, but that type of routing was pretty much universal when the Spirt was a current model. Nonetheless, the biggest difference you'd notice is that the Spirt is reverse-action; i.e. Big ring normal. The Tiagra also has a wider cage to accommodate front indexing. That means more lever throw to make your shift, but also less trimming I'm not convinced that's true, since the Spirt was made back in the days of wiiiiide chains with protruding rivets, made for 5-speed clusters. Otherwise, on a double crank, FDs are about as simple as things get. If you were running a triple, I'd say modern is definitely better, with ramps on the cage matched to a range of ring sizes to push the chain off with less overshifting needed. I had a Spirt on my first 10-speed and I really liked the reverse action. Pull either lever towards you, get an easier gear. It seems to make more sense to have it on the front than on the rear (Rapid-rise) so that it's cable, rather than spring, giving you you lower gears. That's true on the front, but low-normal rears are actually superior in downshift reliability/performance. The thing with having both shifters operate in the same direction (high/low) is a mixed blessing. Back in the day, with down-tube shifters, the traditional configuration made for easier double shifting, since you would move both levers in the same direction to do a double shift. Sheldon "Spirt" Brown |
#8
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How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur?
On Feb 19, 5:47 pm, "Sheldon Brown" wrote:
Someone asked: How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur? Spirt seems like a superior design concept, given one has the extra cable stop/housing. And front derailleurs seem primitive any way, so is there significantly different better materials that would make the newer Tiagra a superior choice over the Spirt? It doesn not look like many older cast materials, so its hard to visually note material differences from pictures, like with the rear derailleur differences. There's no important difference in materials, but the shape of the front derailer cages on modern front derailers is much more sophisticated, probably thanks to computer analysis of the shifting process. Hank Wirtz wrote: I'd call the extra housing a weakness - more housing means more friction. Especially down in that area, where water off the front wheel showers the Bottom Bracket and one end of the housing, and the other end of the housing is pointing straight up, so it's prone to collecting water and rusting. Yes, but that type of routing was pretty much universal when the Spirt was a current model. Nonetheless, the biggest difference you'd notice is that the Spirt is reverse-action; i.e. Big ring normal. The Tiagra also has a wider cage to accommodate front indexing. That means more lever throw to make your shift, but also less trimming I'm not convinced that's true, since the Spirt was made back in the days of wiiiiide chains with protruding rivets, made for 5-speed clusters. Otherwise, on a double crank, FDs are about as simple as things get. If you were running a triple, I'd say modern is definitely better, with ramps on the cage matched to a range of ring sizes to push the chain off with less overshifting needed. I had a Spirt on my first 10-speed and I really liked the reverse action. Pull either lever towards you, get an easier gear. It seems to make more sense to have it on the front than on the rear (Rapid-rise) so that it's cable, rather than spring, giving you you lower gears. That's true on the front, but low-normal rears are actually superior in downshift reliability/performance. The thing with having both shifters operate in the same direction (high/low) is a mixed blessing. Back in the day, with down-tube shifters, the traditional configuration made for easier double shifting, since you would move both levers in the same direction to do a double shift. Sheldon "Spirt" Brown Thanks Sheldon! It looks like you are indicating features should average out about the same, giving benefit of the doubt to newer designs. Well I'll compare them when it arrives with my computer aided bifocals, lol. I won't throw my Tiagra away for sure, but Spirt seemed like a good likely combo for my Suntour Power ratchet shifter which will always be on crank der forever even 'if' get ergo8 for rear der and both brake levers. What I'm looking for is the height of crank friction shifting technology to work with my ratchet shifters and DA crank. I did look at XC front der, but 'looked like' were for 3 crank gears, 31.8mm frames, and may have had limit of 50t max crank. Spirts seem fine enough and safer at this point. It will be an education anyway. Several people have said they still use Spirts so it has benefits for some educated users anyway. It really is hard to jump 36 years in technology without experiencing some of the fruits of the industry, especially when others have done the research and all I have to do it try them out. This board has offered invaluable guidance in parts selection, which is quite a task. Thanks, Phil Bailey |
#9
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How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur?
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:47:05 -0800, Sheldon Brown wrote:
That's true on the front, but low-normal rears are actually superior in downshift reliability/performance. The thing with having both shifters operate in the same direction (high/low) is a mixed blessing. Back in the day, with down-tube shifters, the traditional configuration made for easier double shifting, since you would move both levers in the same direction to do a double shift. Do you think this is the reason for it? I'm curious -- after all, either direction works well enough at either end, so the founding fathers of bikedom could have chosen any configuration. I've ridden old Suntour bikes and Rapid Rise Shimano gear -- it all works. Matt O. |
#10
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How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur?
Phil Bailey wrote:
It looks like you are indicating features should average out about the same, giving benefit of the doubt to newer designs. Back in the day, the Spirt was something of a pain because of its narrow cage, which required a fair amount of trimming as you shift the rear. My good friend John Allen even made a special gadget that connected the front and rear cables under the down tube, so that his Spirt would trim automatically as the rear cable moved up and down. I recall noticing this the first time I met him, when he came into the old Bicycle Repair Collective in Cambridge, sometime in the early '70s. The narrow cage was a liability back in the 5-speed era, with wide chains that had protruding pins. However this becomes a virtue with modern narrow chains, so it will probably work just fine for you as long as you keep that bight of cable housing clean and free running. Sheldon "Spirtualist" Brown +--------------------------------+ | Atheists do not believe in | | "I before E except after C." | +--------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com |
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