Tricks for keeping cadence?

I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping cadence high
going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a tune, or count reps
when the going gets tough and I start to sink below 65 or 70 (or lower).

I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less forceful
breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it again.

Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the way to go?
I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to energy conservation,
but we still see low cadence riding a lot in the pros during climbs. I'm
thinking maybe it's something that's just very hard to change once you've
developed your riding, and climbing style.

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems like
that's next.

-B

Badger_South wrote:
:: I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping
:: cadence high going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a
:: tune, or count reps when the going gets tough and I start to sink
:: below 65 or 70 (or lower).

why not just look at your cadence computer?

::
:: I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less
:: forceful breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it
:: again.

you count while riding? that must be painful. someone might run into you
while you're concentrating on counting reps.

::
:: Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the way
:: to go?

Well, if it's good enough for Lance.....

I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to energy
:: conservation, but we still see low cadence riding a lot in the pros
:: during climbs. I'm thinking maybe it's something that's just very
:: hard to change once you've developed your riding, and climbing style.

Bad habits are hard to change....

::
:: I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems like
:: that's next.
::
:: -B

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:10:56 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
wrote:

Badger_South wrote:
:: I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping
:: cadence high going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a
:: tune, or count reps when the going gets tough and I start to sink
:: below 65 or 70 (or lower).

why not just look at your cadence computer?

::
:: I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less
:: forceful breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it
:: again.

you count while riding? that must be painful. someone might run into you
while you're concentrating on counting reps.

Ok, Mr Advanced Rider, lol. I'm talking about keeping up cadence on
sections where you're breathing quite forcefully and about to rep out in
38x15 at 55rpm, seated. Don't you ride near current max sections where
you're about to see stars until you reach the flats or more gentle slope?

I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to energy
:: conservation, but we still see low cadence riding a lot in the pros
:: during climbs. I'm thinking maybe it's something that's just very
:: hard to change once you've developed your riding, and climbing style.

Bad habits are hard to change....

It's not so much that it's a habit, but perhaps similar to
changing/improving something fundamental in your form, such as stride
length in jogging. (something that may not even be adviseable).

IOW, it seems like -such- a good idea, yet are many pros trying to train
that way? If not, why not?

-B

Badger South writes:

I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping
cadence high going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a
tune, or count reps when the going gets tough and I start to sink
below 65 or 70 (or lower).

I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less
forceful breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it
again.

Why do you care? From what you write, it seems you don't have any
real mountains to climb. In that case it isn't cadence that counts
but speed. Here you have a great opportunity to determine in which
gear you climb faster by clocking the same run repeatedly in a lower
and higher gear with statistical sampling. Just measure the ET.

Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the way
to go? I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to energy
conservation, but we still see low cadence riding a lot in the pros
during climbs. I'm thinking maybe it's something that's just very
hard to change once you've developed your riding, and climbing
style.

I don't know that we have heard from any experts, although some have
claimed such skills. You can't tell what the credentials of posters
to this newsgroup are, only whether they make sense. Don't take oft
repeated "facts" as valid. They just get repeated here enough to
become absolute among the faithful.

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems
like that's next.

That's called the "nothing moves but my legs" syndrome, a fetish among
beginners and only on short grades. I have ridden many long climbs in
the Alps and never seen anyone ride like that near the top although
some riders start out that way.

Get out and ride and don't worry about form. That will come naturally
if you hurry when riding. This is especially true if you ride with
someone who's a bit faster.

Jobst Brandt

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:22:12 GMT, wrote:

Badger South writes:

I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping
cadence high going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum a
tune, or count reps when the going gets tough and I start to sink
below 65 or 70 (or lower).

I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less
forceful breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it
again.

Why do you care? From what you write, it seems you don't have any
real mountains to climb. In that case it isn't cadence that counts
but speed. Here you have a great opportunity to determine in which
gear you climb faster by clocking the same run repeatedly in a lower
and higher gear with statistical sampling. Just measure the ET.

OK, boss. I'll try that. Sometimes the 'obvious' isn't that apparent.

Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the way
to go? I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to energy
conservation, but we still see low cadence riding a lot in the pros
during climbs. I'm thinking maybe it's something that's just very
hard to change once you've developed your riding, and climbing
style.

I don't know that we have heard from any experts, although some have
claimed such skills. You can't tell what the credentials of posters
to this newsgroup are, only whether they make sense. Don't take oft
repeated "facts" as valid. They just get repeated here enough to
become absolute among the faithful.

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems
like that's next.

That's called the "nothing moves but my legs" syndrome, a fetish among
beginners and only on short grades.

Hmm. Is it a syndrome or a phase? Carmichael talks about it...

I have ridden many long climbs in
the Alps and never seen anyone ride like that near the top although
some riders start out that way.

So you're a fan of the side-to-side full on body english method?

Get out and ride and don't worry about form. That will come naturally
if you hurry when riding. This is especially true if you ride with
someone who's a bit faster.

I worry about form b/c as a beginner, I'm looking for all the 'edge' I can
get, and anyway it's something to do while suffering.

Thx.

-B


Jobst Brandt

Badger South writes:

I'm wondering if there are any good tips out there for keeping
cadence high going up moderate hills. I find I really have to hum
a tune, or count reps when the going gets tough and I start to
sink below 65 or 70 (or lower).

I count to 50 and then try and take a deep sigh (more or less
forceful breathe out), and think 'sink/get centered', then do it
again.

Why do you care? From what you write, it seems you don't have any
real mountains to climb. In that case it isn't cadence that counts
but speed. Here you have a great opportunity to determine in which
gear you climb faster by clocking the same run repeatedly in a
lower and higher gear with statistical sampling. Just measure the
ET.

OK, boss. I'll try that. Sometimes the 'obvious' isn't that apparent.

The obvious often gets clouded by hearing too much from people that
believe bicycling is all about technique rather than strength and
endurance. We see endless discussions on style that increases speed.
I've never seen any of this in use by folks who get more than 50 miles
from home. It's mostly practiced on the local "look at me" routes,
aka Foothill Expressway (Los Altos) around here.

Have the experts pretty much decided that higher cadence is the
way to go? I realize we just discussed this here, in relation to
energy conservation, but we still see low cadence riding a lot in
the pros during climbs. I'm thinking maybe it's something that's
just very hard to change once you've developed your riding, and
climbing style.

I don't know that we have heard from any experts, although some
have claimed such skills. You can't tell what the credentials of
posters to this newsgroup are, only whether they make sense. Don't
take oft repeated "facts" as valid. They just get repeated here
enough to become absolute among the faithful.

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems
like that's next.

That's called the "nothing moves but my legs" syndrome, a fetish
among beginners and only on short grades.

Hmm. Is it a syndrome or a phase? Carmichael talks about it...

I have ridden many long climbs in the Alps and never seen anyone
ride like that near the top although some riders start out that
way.

So you're a fan of the side-to-side full on body english method?

I didn't say that. That style was best don by Roger Millar on hill
climbs. Ride what works for you, not what "they" do.

Get out and ride and don't worry about form. That will come
naturally if you hurry when riding. This is especially true if you
ride with someone who's a bit faster.

I worry about form b/c as a beginner, I'm looking for all the 'edge'
I can get, and anyway it's something to do while suffering.

There is not edge in form, only in fitness and endurance. Don't
suffer. You won't get any merit badges for it and it isn't any fun.
Fun is going places and seeing things:

http://tinyurl.com/adls

also see Tour of the Alps 2004:

rec.bicycles.rides

Jobst Brandt

Badger_South wrote:
(snip)

So you're a fan of the side-to-side full on body english method?

LOL. I lived on a bike when I was a kid (45 years ago), and *loved* to
do the body english thing, especially on hills, while standing ... see
how far I could throw that bike side-to-side without losing it. 44
years later (last year ... heh!) I began riding again, and on the very
first hill I encountered I became aware that, without thinking about it
and not having done it for ages, I was encouraging the bike to snap from
side to side.

wrote in part:

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems
like that's next.

That's called the "nothing moves but my legs" syndrome, a fetish among
beginners and only on short grades. I have ridden many long climbs in
the Alps and never seen anyone ride like that near the top although
some riders start out that way.

As it relates to climbing, I'll bow to your much greater experience but when
you call it a "fetish" it seems like you are saying that it's a mistake to
consciously work toward a "quiet upper body" on the flats. Do you mean that?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Bob Hubt writes:

I haven't learned the 'quiet upper body' phase yet, but it seems
like that's next.

That's called the "nothing moves but my legs" syndrome, a fetish
among beginners and only on short grades. I have ridden many long
climbs in the Alps and never seen anyone ride like that near the
top although some riders start out that way.

As it relates to climbing, I'll bow to your much greater experience
but when you call it a "fetish" it seems like you are saying that
it's a mistake to consciously work toward a "quiet upper body" on
the flats. Do you mean that?

The "quiet upper body" riding is a development in the pursuit of
excessive spinning, where saddle bounce becomes a problem. If you
observe anyone racing you'll notice that riders lunge onto the
downward stroke if working anywhere near top performance. This is not
an option but a necessity. Riding with no upper body motion is
possible only when riding at a less than maximum effort where an
optional style is drawn from extra effort, something riders cannot do
for long when working hard. That goes for flats or on hills sitting
or standing where the equivalent is not leaning the bicycle, an even
more contrived style that is possible when riding lower gears than
optimal.

I sense that we are getting close to discussing "ankling", forbid.

Jobst Brandt

wrote:


The "quiet upper body" riding is a development in the pursuit of
excessive spinning, where saddle bounce becomes a problem. If you
observe anyone racing you'll notice that riders lunge onto the
downward stroke if working anywhere near top performance. This is not
an option but a necessity. Riding with no upper body motion is
possible only when riding at a less than maximum effort where an
optional style is drawn from extra effort, something riders cannot do
for long when working hard. That goes for flats or on hills sitting
or standing where the equivalent is not leaning the bicycle, an even
more contrived style that is possible when riding lower gears than
optimal.

I sense that we are getting close to discussing "ankling", forbid.



You can relax Jobst, we aren't even approaching any "ankling" discussion. My
question was based, not on riding at or near maximum effort, on riding
comfortably in the 20 to 24 mph range. Personally, in those circumstances I've
found a "quiet upper body" approach works well in reducing fatigue. It felt
unnatural when I first started to consciously try to achieve that about 8 or 9
years ago but the longer I worked at it, the more relaxed it felt. I'd compare
it to the military posture of "standing attention". That is an extremely
uncomfortable body position at first but once one's muscles "learn" the pose it
actually seems easier on muscles, especially back muscles, than a casual
slouching posture.

Regards,
Bob Hunt