IDIOTS ON BIKES ARE NOT AS DANGEROUS

"Miles Bader" wrote
The U.S. is a pretty messed-up place...

Because Americans like to go where and when they want instead of when and
where der fuhrer decides they should??

On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:17:08 -0500, John Thompson
wrote:
On 2009-03-22, Vito wrote:

Public transport can be great provided it goes to, from and when one needs
it - which is seldom the case in the US.

Mostly due to a lack of funding for public transit and generous
subsidies to support private automobile infrastructure.

More than 30 years ago, CalTrans (the California Department of
Transportation) did a study on mass transit in Los Angeles. They spent
a lot of money and time trying to figure out how to solve the problem,
considering L.A. was increasing in population at a ridiculous rate,
with more vehicles every day. The result was there is no solution.
Since the days of Levittown, Americans have been moving into isolated
bedroom communities and working in some other place and shopping in
some other place. When Dad goes downtown to work from 8-4:30, Mom goes
5 miles one way to her salon and 10 miles the other way for groceries,
and the kids go 5 miles another way to school, there is no network of
rail, bus or any other mass transit system that will accomodate
getting all the people from where they are to where they need to go in
Los Angeles. It's strictly a matter of urban planning and how we live
our lives, NOT whatever transportation system we have.

The same is true for San Diego and numerous other metropolitan areas
in the US. It is _not_ true for New York City and a handful of other
US cities. (FWIW, San Diego is 23% larger than NYC's 5 boroughs.)

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

Pat::
::: I, too, wondered why he would say such a thing. There are some
::: factors he has left out; the most important being the difference in
::: the way that European cities "grew up" and the way that American
::: cities did. It's comparing apples to oranges and does not mean that
::: we "bad" Americans simply love cars or love to pollute. It's much,
::: much more complex that just "US=bad, Europe=good."
::
::: I used to live in Frankfurt am Main, and it had plenty of car
::: traffic in town.
::
:: Once awhile ago, back when I served in the US military near there but
:: today cities like Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Milano, Zurich,... have
:: converted their formerly car clogged main streets pedestrian malls,
:: and some moved street cars under ground with a big blue [u] sign at
:: the escalator. I always like to tell how in the days of yore I rode
:: a secret lap on the Vigorelli on my road bike and pedaled through the
:: famed pedestrian mall, Galleria, to La Scala opera house, passing il
:: Duomo. That was many years ago and it was pedestrans, mopeds,
:: bicycles and delivery trucks.

Of course Frankfurt has a small area in the center of town like that, but it
isn't the entire city as your post seems to suggest.

:: More an more cities are following this trend. Locally Palo Alto is
:: studying such a plan for University Avenue while CalTrain is going to
:: be electrified along with more bus service. It's happening.
:: Stanford has finally put studies into reality after years of
:: students solving the problem of what public transit costs a city.
:: They always found that not charging fares in the metropolitan area
:: is cheaper than policing car traffic that scares people from going
:: there in the first place.
::
:: We have a fee "Marguerite" bus service that runs both clockwise and
:: counterclockwise through Palo Alto and Stanford. Stanford is a
:: pedestrian mall, the whole campus around lecture and laboratory
:: halls.
::
:: Jobst Brandt

I am glad to hear of this. But, try connecting Dallas and Fort Worth with
the cities in between (and to the north and south) without a car. I can take
the T to downtown Dallas, but that doesn't help to take me where I might
want to go in, say, Plano or Farmers' Branch. Our cities "grew up" in a
sprawl for many reasons that Europe didn't have. It's kind of like trying to
put a cat back into a bag. I also wonder about your statement that "more
and more cities are following this trend." I am afraid Palo Alto is not
exactly a good example. What can you do in Dallas?

Pat

Schiffner wrote:
::
: All you said is I'm right. Public transport can't work, cars are for
: idiots and motorcycles are likely the cure. Well that and from what
: I've seen sheep don't ride. You start riding and the wool comes off
: your eyes and out of your ears.

Look here, the "local" REI store is 55 miles away from my house. No public
transportation goes there and if I did have a motorcycle to ride there, how
would I carry my tent or boots or sleeping bag back home with me? Just
driving there takes me an hour and 15 minutes! Cars are not for idiots even
though you assert that.

Pat

"Vito" writes:
The U.S. is a pretty messed-up place...

Because Americans like to go where and when they want instead of when and
where der fuhrer decides they should??

Silly statements like that don't exactly help your argument...

-Miles

--
Accordion, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin.

Schiffner writes:
the real answer for moving individuals over 2 miles is a motorcycle.
For anything over three people a car is needed. Only an idiot thinks
that PT is the cure...

The problem is thinking that a single mode of transport suffices.
That's the real problem with the way american society (and others, but
the U.S. seems one of the worst) has handled cars -- certainly they have
a place, and probably always will, but like anything else, they have
their proper niche. Walking, bicycles, motorcycles, cars, buses, trains
(of all sorts), and airplanes (etc) can all play a useful part.

Motorcycles are good for many uses; besides the obvious size and
resource advantages over cars, they also have less of an isolating
effect. But obviously they're not a one-size-fits-all solution any more
than cars are.

-Miles

--
Infancy, n. The period of our lives when, according to Wordsworth, 'Heaven
lies about us.' The world begins lying about us pretty soon afterward.

On Mar 22, 6:07*pm, "Vito" wrote:
"Miles Bader" wrote The U.S. is a pretty messed-up place....

Because Americans like to go where and when they want instead of when and
where der fuhrer decides they should??

Exactly! Damnit man we aren't supposed to agree...not even a little
damnitall. 8^)
--
Keith

On Mar 22, 6:57*pm, Miles Bader wrote:
"Vito" writes:
The U.S. is a pretty messed-up place...

Because Americans like to go where and when they want instead of when and
where der fuhrer decides they should??

Silly statements like that don't exactly help your argument...

No BUT they do prove point you are to blind to understand. If you
don't understand the minds of sheep you'll never understand WHY PT
can't work in america.

--
Keith

On Mar 22, 6:57*pm, Miles Bader wrote:


Accordion, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin..


HA! It's an instrument designed to bring forth the sweet dulcet notes
to make women's clothes fall off.
For that matter banjo's are so gentle and soothing women will bring
you fine whiskey.

Now tuba's are the devil's tool and lead to thinking PT will solve the
worlds problems...it wont.
--
Keith

In article ,
writes:
Tom Keats wrote:

But a good start would be moving freight off of our highways and
back onto our rail roads.

Oh, that old chestnut. Dream on. If it was that easy and
cost-effective it would have been done.

It actually was done, once upon a time.

if done again, car drivers would raise such a big stink about
abundant trains stopping them at RR crossings, we'd be back to
where we are now.

Boo-hoo, I can't drive my single-occupant car anywhere 'cuz
there's this big goddamned train in my way, taking goods to a
place where I won't benefit. Life sux. All I can do is whine &
gripe and bellyache. So I will. /That/ should evoke some
political action in my favour. Screw everybody else. Me, me, me!

Heh.

I just stole Jack May's thunder. Well, he might have an
insignificant fart left in him. But we all know how to deal with
other people's farts.

As for Vito's statement that: "People seek comfort and
convenience," well, people are willing to pay for convenience, up
to a point. Especially in North America, where convenience is de
rigeur. But there comes a point where cost becomes a
consideration.

Earth to Keats--42 percent of US intercity freight is moved by
rail, 13 percent by water, 17 percent by pipeline, and the
remaining 28 percent by truck. The percentage in the US is
increasing.

In the poster child of the railfans, the EU, only _8_ (yes, a
single digit) percent of intercity freight is carried by rail and
that percentage is declining.

So your notion that the US "used" to move freight by rail and doesn't
anymore is just plain _wrong_.

I never made such an assertion; upthread, Vito
wrote: "But a good start would be moving freight off of our highways
and back onto our rail roads."

And he's right: there is a lot of freight rolling on the highways,
and not just LTLs. I live in a port city and work in a logistics
operations warehouse, receiving marine containers offloaded from
overseas ships and transported to our warehouse by trucks. Those
goods are then loaded into rail containers and taken away from our
warehouse by trucks.

Your assertion that there are no freight-hauling semi's on on the
US's (or Canada's) roads is just plain _wrong_.

You could see what crosses I-80 (Donner Pass) on truck and reail. If
you are fortunate, you will see 100+ car freight trains with 100 or so
100+ ton cars crossing by rail while a paltry but visible stram of
highway trucks that hold 30 tons pass by:

http://video.dot.ca.gov/asx/d3-floriston-80.asx

map:

http://tinyurl.com/cldaqq

A California Highway Department (CalTrans) 24hr production from a set
of cameras showing this and the truckee weighing station.

The freight those rail cars contain didn't get to them
by human-powered wheelbarrows. And gone are the days
when warehouses were built atop or adjacent to RR
spur lines. When people think of urban sprawl, we
generally think in residential terms. But Commerce
also moves out into the boondocks in order to save money.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca