bar-end shifters

"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...
John Forrest Tomlinson writes:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:13:27 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

John Forrest Tomlinson writes:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:01:52 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

I don't think that "what most people buy" is valid because it's a
forced choice. Your options at the bike shop are STI or Ergo (and
often STI or STI, Campagnolo having a limited OEM presence), not
brifters or some other shifting system like bar-ends or DT
shifters.

Those availability issues may be be true now, but not when the
transition from to integrated shifting being popular was made.

True. I was happy to buy my first STI bike in 1992 and found STI
top be a definite advantage in races. Being able to shift without
moving my hands had a strategic as well as ergonomic advantage, and
being able to shift while standing was handy sometimes. In 1995 I
switched to Ergo and preferred that, and in 1999 upgraded to a new
bike which included the newer shaped levers which was a improvement
in comfort. I still have that bike, a fillet-brazed Ritchey that is
the best handling bike I've ever ridden. I'd probably like it even
better with bar-ends, but it's too much hassle to switch and there's
nothing really wrongwith the bike now.

Some of that transition to popularity was driven by hype, by the
"newer = better" mentality of Buycycling and VeloSnooze et al. It was
"you gotta have this or be left in the dust." Even non-racers fell
for that.

It's not falling for something when the product works better. If it
works just the same, or worse, then it's falling for something.

And *that* is where the individual calculus I keep referring to comes
in, and which you and JJ seem to find incomprehensible. When I was
racing, brifters worked better. I'm no longer racing and brifters are
no longer better for my needs. What I don't accept is the implication
from you and JJ that people who prefer shifting methods other than
brifters are somehow stick-in-the-muds, nor to I accept the
implication that that brifters are better for everyone. I am puzzled
as to why you and JJ seem to be so threatened by someone thinking
differently about this stuff.

So I do think that much of the popularity was due to marketing and
hype, form over substance as it were.

The way you are describing the role of marketing, it seems that
unless the product is not advertised or seen in any way by the
buying public, it's acceptance is suspect.

Not at all, and in fact you are just putting a spin on my statement
that is unwarranted. There's a difference between marketing and
hype. Hype is what sold brifters far more than marketing.

As a racer I recall seeing some STI in an article and thinking --
interesting, I should take a look at that at some point. And then a
guy in my club actually had a set and I saw him using it in a
criterium. From seeing him up close I realized almost everyone
racing would use the things in a few years. Is that marketing? If
I'd only seen one with no ads, nothing, I still would have thought
they were super-useful. Because they are.

For racers, they are. Yup. No argument. As I have pointed out time
and time again, *I* used brifters when racing because I thought they
were better for that purpose. Now that I don't race any more,
brifters are not "super-useful." I don't like 'em as much as
bar-ends, so I use bar-ends. You and JJ seem to be thinking that
"well, if brifters are better for raccing then obviously they are
better for everything." And brifters aren't, as multiple people have
told you in this thread.

Broken record, repetitive twisting of posts.

"Benjamin Lewis" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Then there's Cole's argument; "You don't like bar cons, must be something
wrong with you or your technique."

I don't remember him saying this. I thought he said something along the
lines of "you find bar cons difficult to use, there must either be
something wrong with your technique or you're a novice", which I'd agree
with, whereas I disagree with the quote above.

I didn't "find the bar cons difficult to use," that's just Cole's
revisionist method of argument.



--
Benjamin Lewis

Now is the time for all good men to come to.
-- Walt Kelly

"John Forrest Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:46:02 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:


nor to I accept the
implication that that brifters are better for everyone.

I have repeatedly said that they are better overall (looking at the
whole cycling population). I have repeatedly said that they are not
the best choice for certain situations -- like people who can't afford
them or people who have certain very demanding situations on their
bikes -- like leaving the bike outside in the rain a lot or touring in
remote areas.

Tim, please stop trying to "win" this discussion by putting words in
my mouth.

I guess if he writes his spin enough he thinks it will be believed.

I am puzzled
as to why you and JJ seem to be so
threatened by someone thinking
differently about this stuff.

I am puzzled why you feel the need to ascribe to marketing what seems
to be a simple fact based on the functionality of the product. Is is
perhaps that this allows you to feel somehow superior in resisting
marketing. If that's it, you should try to get around that problem --
it's actually allowing you to be "influenced" by marketing in another
way. Just choose what you want based on your own needs.

JT

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Quoting JJ :
"David Damerell" wrote in message
Quoting JJ :
mention the bike, rider and panniers weighed in at near 300 lbs? Or do you
think the normal bike tourer expects zero crashes on 300-600 mile runs?
In particular I did a 1,000 mile run in 2004 with a bike and riders that
weighed quite a bit more than 300 lbs and we didn't hit anything - in fact
we've never crashed the tandem at all.
I think it depends where you are.

Free hint; a British touring cyclist making a thousand mile run is
probably going everywhere in the country, or at any rate everywhere on a
line between the SW and NE corners.

If you expect to crash every 300-600 miles frankly it sounds like you're
just terminally undextrous.
--
David Damerell Kill the tomato!
Today is Monday, January.

Quoting JJ :
"David Damerell" wrote in message
Quoting John Forrest Tomlinson :
Yes, most bikes come with them. But take a new rider, who has never
really thought about bar-ends and integrated shifters, and see what
they pick. It's clear.
Obviously that could not possibly be a result of the advantage of ready
access from the brakes being more obvious than the disadvantage of
fragility and unmaintainability.
Maybe they'll come out with a very cheap disposable field replaceable
brifter, because at present, apparently, they have a lifespan of only a week
or so (in perfect weather only).

If you can't argue with what I wrote, it's much easier to make something
up and argue with that, isn't it?

I notice you don't actually dispute that brifters are more fragile and
less maintainable.
--
David Damerell Kill the tomato!
Today is Monday, January.

Quoting JJ :
"David Damerell" wrote in message
Quoting JJ :
I predict that at least 90% of the road bikers out there who have
experience using bar ends prefer integrated shifters.
I'd feel ashamed about a tiny sample size except you don't actually have
any sample size at all; we'd need a doctor with a flashlight to see where
that "90%" came from.
When I go out with the Reading CTC, more than 10% of the riders have
bar-ends. Manifestly your assertion is not true of this group.
Well, since you are quantifying that and you were there to observe, what is
"more than 10%?" 10.1%? 99.99%?

Why does that matter? You're wrong either way. Of course, if you'd said
"most" rather than pulling an exaggerated figure out of thin air, it
wouldn't be completely trivial to disprove it.
--
David Damerell Kill the tomato!
Today is Monday, January.

Egads! I would never have thought that this subject could get as ugly
as the helmet threads.
I was wrong!

gds wrote:
Egads! I would never have thought that this subject could get as ugly
as the helmet threads.
I was wrong!

Next week: internal cable routing!

Bill "provocateur" S.

"David Damerell" wrote in message
...
Quoting JJ :
"David Damerell" wrote in message
Quoting John Forrest Tomlinson :
Yes, most bikes come with them. But take a new rider, who has never
really thought about bar-ends and integrated shifters, and see what
they pick. It's clear.
Obviously that could not possibly be a result of the advantage of ready
access from the brakes being more obvious than the disadvantage of
fragility and unmaintainability.
Maybe they'll come out with a very cheap disposable field replaceable
brifter, because at present, apparently, they have a lifespan of only a
week
or so (in perfect weather only).

If you can't argue with what I wrote, it's much easier to make something
up and argue with that, isn't it?

I notice you don't actually dispute that brifters are more fragile and
less maintainable.

I did, actually.

--
David Damerell Kill the tomato!
Today is Monday, January.

"David Damerell" wrote in message
...
Quoting JJ :
"David Damerell" wrote in message
Quoting JJ :
I predict that at least 90% of the road bikers out there who have
experience using bar ends prefer integrated shifters.
I'd feel ashamed about a tiny sample size except you don't actually have
any sample size at all; we'd need a doctor with a flashlight to see where
that "90%" came from.
When I go out with the Reading CTC, more than 10% of the riders have
bar-ends. Manifestly your assertion is not true of this group.
Well, since you are quantifying that and you were there to observe, what
is
"more than 10%?" 10.1%? 99.99%?

Why does that matter? You're wrong either way. Of course, if you'd said
"most" rather than pulling an exaggerated figure out of thin air, it
wouldn't be completely trivial to disprove it.

That's not the question I asked. Further, my "figure" was a prediction, not
a statement of fact like your figure which, one would imagine, is based on
an actual number because you were there to witness the "more than 10%."


--
David Damerell Kill the tomato!
Today is Monday, January.