Electra Amsterdam Royal8 - dynamo front hub?

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:28:20 -0600, "Jay" wrote:

My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going this
route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design, they
would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.

BEcause the Axa HR is a traditional Dutch Bike design and the hub dynamos
aren't, I actually suspect.

Jasper

On Feb 11, 3:26*am, "Clive George" wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message

...

The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
enough for really adverse circumstances.

Um, have you actually tried a decent set of dynamo lights?

You haven't read what I've written, have you?

I've used 3W halogen lamps as the sole source of front lighting for many
years, in all conditions. Others on this group have too - though I know you
have personal problems with them (the people, not the lights).

Policies, not personalities, Clive. If someone with whom I have a
difference of opinion on another matter has good information on this
one and wants to share it with me, we start afresh.

SMS claims
they're unusable, but that's his theory, not real world experience.

Steven Scharf is a benefactor of cyclists just like the late Sheldon
Brown and Jobst Brandt and the late Ken Kifer. He has good information
and shares it generously. That doesn't mean that every one of his
conclusions or prejudices are valid for everyone else or should be
accepted by everyone.

I didn't say dynamo lights are unusable. Those are your words. As it
happens, I like modern dynamo lights for the purposes for which they
are suited. I also like hi-watt front lights and high intensity rear
blinkers for the purposes for which they are suited. Since my life is
clearly more valuable than those of the dynamo light fanatics, I
simply use both.

More recently, LED lamps such as the B+M IQ fly have really raised the
game - the 3W halogen was good enough, the 2.4W LED in the IQ fly or is
stunning.

I agree, they are so much better than the old filamentary lamps, than
earlier generations of halogen lights, than even the earlier
generations of LED lights. So what? That they are better doesn't
automatically make them good enough, except for fashion victims. See
what I said above about the value of my life.

Of course one of the advantages of the LED lamps is their incredibly low
starting speed - the halogen lamps require that you be going a bit faster,
which might make them less suitable for people like you who ride at a less
'enthusiastic' speed (no offence intended by this remark - it's just that I
know in normal life you're riding quite a lot slower than many of the
historic proponents of dynamo lighting on this NG, and 6-8mph is getting
close to the starting speed for halogen lamps).

I have no idea where you get your "knowledge" from, Clive. Yesterday I
went for a ride. On my return along the same road my speed from the
turning point to my front door never fell below 30kph. So what is the
lowest possible average speed? Go on, it is simple arithmetic, you
should be able to manage.

So, in summary, Dutch and German sidewall generator or hub dynamo
front lights, and battery rear lights (or dynamo rear lights for that
matter) are good enough for backup and an added layer of visibility.
Both should be viewed as permanent emergency installations and
supplemented with hi-watt battery lights at the front and a flashing
LED (the Cateye LD1100 is the best unless you want to lash out for a
Dinotte rear light) at the back.

That's SMS talk.

So Steven is your bogeyman. So what?

See above - dynamo lights are entirely good enough for
primary lighting on their own, and with the new generation of LED lamps, are
even better.

It is a matter of opinion, Clive. I see three purposes for lighting:
being seen, seeing, earning respect that makes cars give you space.
Dynamo lights are marginal to adequate for the first two and useless
for the third. So I back them up with hi-watt battery lights and make
sure.

(for rear, the choice of something like a D-toplight with standlight or a
battery light on its own is less clear-cut - I'd go for the former, because
I want something which is genuinely fit-and-forget, but battery ones aren't
too bad)

Don't give yourself a hernia bending over backwards to be reasonable,
Clive; it doesn't suit.

In any event, the D-Toplight isn't waterproof, a problem with many of
the BUMM lights. I didn't replace mine after it clocked out,
preferring the Spanninga Ultra on my Trek. But either one just gets
lost in light clutter in towns, and well short of cars' braking
distance on dark roads. A high intensity blinky is an essential
addition.

clive

Andre Jute
Are you merely a consumer or are you a contributor?

On Feb 11, 7:48*am, Hank wrote:
On Feb 10, 5:49 pm, Andre Jute wrote:

It will probably cost 100-150 bucks to get a front wheel with a dynamo
hub and rollerbrake built in to match the style and rear wheel of an
Amsterdam.

FWIW, the least expensive dynohub I've seen is the Sturmey-Archer X-
FDD, which contains both a dynamo and a drum brake. I paid about $60
for the hub. I built the wheel for a shade under $100.

The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
enough for really adverse circumstances.

The BUMM IQ Fly is as bright as any battery-powered light that was
made prior to about three or four years ago.

I agree, it is better. The question is whether it is good enough or if
there is something better still. For some people only the best is good
enough. It doesn't usually cost all that much more.

Spit out the Scharf Kool-
Aid

Steven has good information and shares it generously. That doesn't
mean one has to take sides. Both sorts of lights (modern dynamo lights
and high-watt battery lights) have advantages, so I just use both. If
you consider your life less valuable than mine, go ahead, use only one
kind of light.

Andre Jute
Calm, considered, rational.

On Feb 11, 3:52*pm, Jasper Janssen wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:28:20 -0600, "Jay" wrote:
My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going this
route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design, they
would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.

BEcause the Axa HR is a traditional Dutch Bike design and the hub dynamos
aren't, I actually suspect.

Jasper

Nah, hub dynamos have been used on Dutch bikes of the most traditional
design for a good many years now; they have become standard, expected
by consumers. Check out the Gazelle site www.gazelle.nl and count the
number of bikes left with rim dynamos.

Andre Jute
Tomorrow's bicyclist -- kevlar armour-cladding, nanny-foam, monster
insurance

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
On Feb 11, 3:26 am, "Clive George" wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message

...

The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
enough for really adverse circumstances.

Um, have you actually tried a decent set of dynamo lights?

You haven't read what I've written, have you?

sigh

Given your incredibly low signal to noise ratio, it wouldn't be surprising
if I hadn't. But in this case, I have.

You're claiming a 3W halogen light isn't good enough. It is.

I've used 3W halogen lamps as the sole source of front lighting for many
years, in all conditions. Others on this group have too - though I know
you
have personal problems with them (the people, not the lights).

Policies, not personalities, Clive. If someone with whom I have a
difference of opinion on another matter has good information on this
one and wants to share it with me, we start afresh.

Good.

SMS claims
they're unusable, but that's his theory, not real world experience.

Steven Scharf is a benefactor of cyclists just like the late Sheldon
Brown and Jobst Brandt and the late Ken Kifer. He has good information
and shares it generously. That doesn't mean that every one of his
conclusions or prejudices are valid for everyone else or should be
accepted by everyone.

That's, erm, quite funny. Actually, it's a bit insulting to the people you
mention too. SMS talks a lot of crap.

I didn't say dynamo lights are unusable. Those are your words.

"just aren't good enough". Means the same thing.

As it happens, I like modern dynamo lights for the purposes for which they
are suited.

You mean, as the primary light source, no need for backup? Good, so do I.

I also like hi-watt front lights and high intensity rear
blinkers for the purposes for which they are suited. Since my life is
clearly more valuable than those of the dynamo light fanatics, I
simply use both.

Experience says your worries are misplaced.

More recently, LED lamps such as the B+M IQ fly have really raised the
game - the 3W halogen was good enough, the 2.4W LED in the IQ fly or is
stunning.

I agree, they are so much better than the old filamentary lamps, than
earlier generations of halogen lights, than even the earlier
generations of LED lights. So what? That they are better doesn't
automatically make them good enough, except for fashion victims. See
what I said above about the value of my life.

Experience says your worries are misplaced. And have you actually tried an
IQ fly or similar? Coz what you're writing doesn't make sense for anybody
who's tried one.

Of course one of the advantages of the LED lamps is their incredibly low
starting speed - the halogen lamps require that you be going a bit
faster,
which might make them less suitable for people like you who ride at a
less
'enthusiastic' speed (no offence intended by this remark - it's just that
I
know in normal life you're riding quite a lot slower than many of the
historic proponents of dynamo lighting on this NG, and 6-8mph is getting
close to the starting speed for halogen lamps).

I have no idea where you get your "knowledge" from, Clive. Yesterday I
went for a ride. On my return along the same road my speed from the
turning point to my front door never fell below 30kph. So what is the
lowest possible average speed? Go on, it is simple arithmetic, you
should be able to manage.

Let's assume a 11.5km ride, which is what you said elsewhere was a decent
ride for you. If it's an out and back in a day, the lowest possible average
speed is about 0.3mph. So what's your point?

So, in summary, Dutch and German sidewall generator or hub dynamo
front lights, and battery rear lights (or dynamo rear lights for that
matter) are good enough for backup and an added layer of visibility.
Both should be viewed as permanent emergency installations and
supplemented with hi-watt battery lights at the front and a flashing
LED (the Cateye LD1100 is the best unless you want to lash out for a
Dinotte rear light) at the back.

That's SMS talk.

So Steven is your bogeyman. So what?

So he talks crap.

See above - dynamo lights are entirely good enough for
primary lighting on their own, and with the new generation of LED lamps,
are
even better.

It is a matter of opinion, Clive. I see three purposes for lighting:
being seen, seeing, earning respect that makes cars give you space.
Dynamo lights are marginal to adequate for the first two and useless
for the third. So I back them up with hi-watt battery lights and make
sure.

Experience says otherwise.

Don't give yourself a hernia bending over backwards to be reasonable,
Clive; it doesn't suit.

Try not to pretend to be a reasonable human being, it doesn't suit. You're a
loser. And you're giving bad advice.

clive

Jay explained on 11-2-2008 :
OK, guys, this is really it. I need to spend my tax return this week, even
before I get it.

My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there any
advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going this
route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design, they
would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.

http://www.mikesbike.com/pages/amsterdam.htm

Confused as usual - J.

AXA is a very common dynamo in the Netherlands, as I speak.

If you don't ride too many times in snowy conditions it is a good
dynamo.

If you do ride often in snowy conditions or like the luxury of a hub
gen, please do buy one.

I fully concur with the recommendations on dynamo powered LED lighting,
front and rear.

Batteries always seem to be empty just when you need them most or when
a police officer is nearby....

Martin
Netherlands (190 km from Amsterdam)

You want to pick a fight, Clive, go pick it with someone else. I see
no reason to choose between dynamo lights and high-wattage battery
lights. My life is valuable; it demands the functionality of both. If
the choice of one or the other is a matter of religion to you, that's
your overreaction, nothing to do with me.

Andre Jute
Officially certified as a national treasure

On Feb 11, 6:45 pm, "Clive George" wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message

...
On Feb 11, 3:26 am, "Clive George" wrote:

"Andre Jute" wrote in message

...

The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
enough for really adverse circumstances.

Um, have you actually tried a decent set of dynamo lights?

You haven't read what I've written, have you?

sigh

Given your incredibly low signal to noise ratio, it wouldn't be surprising
if I hadn't. But in this case, I have.

You're claiming a 3W halogen light isn't good enough. It is.

I've used 3W halogen lamps as the sole source of front lighting for many
years, in all conditions. Others on this group have too - though I know
you
have personal problems with them (the people, not the lights).

Policies, not personalities, Clive. If someone with whom I have a
difference of opinion on another matter has good information on this
one and wants to share it with me, we start afresh.

Good.

SMS claims
they're unusable, but that's his theory, not real world experience.

Steven Scharf is a benefactor of cyclists just like the late Sheldon
Brown and Jobst Brandt and the late Ken Kifer. He has good information
and shares it generously. That doesn't mean that every one of his
conclusions or prejudices are valid for everyone else or should be
accepted by everyone.

That's, erm, quite funny. Actually, it's a bit insulting to the people you
mention too. SMS talks a lot of crap.

I didn't say dynamo lights are unusable. Those are your words.

"just aren't good enough". Means the same thing.

As it happens, I like modern dynamo lights for the purposes for which they
are suited.

You mean, as the primary light source, no need for backup? Good, so do I.

I also like hi-watt front lights and high intensity rear
blinkers for the purposes for which they are suited. Since my life is
clearly more valuable than those of the dynamo light fanatics, I
simply use both.

Experience says your worries are misplaced.

More recently, LED lamps such as the B+M IQ fly have really raised the
game - the 3W halogen was good enough, the 2.4W LED in the IQ fly or is
stunning.

I agree, they are so much better than the old filamentary lamps, than
earlier generations of halogen lights, than even the earlier
generations of LED lights. So what? That they are better doesn't
automatically make them good enough, except for fashion victims. See
what I said above about the value of my life.

Experience says your worries are misplaced. And have you actually tried an
IQ fly or similar? Coz what you're writing doesn't make sense for anybody
who's tried one.



Of course one of the advantages of the LED lamps is their incredibly low
starting speed - the halogen lamps require that you be going a bit
faster,
which might make them less suitable for people like you who ride at a
less
'enthusiastic' speed (no offence intended by this remark - it's just that
I
know in normal life you're riding quite a lot slower than many of the
historic proponents of dynamo lighting on this NG, and 6-8mph is getting
close to the starting speed for halogen lamps).

I have no idea where you get your "knowledge" from, Clive. Yesterday I
went for a ride. On my return along the same road my speed from the
turning point to my front door never fell below 30kph. So what is the
lowest possible average speed? Go on, it is simple arithmetic, you
should be able to manage.

Let's assume a 11.5km ride, which is what you said elsewhere was a decent
ride for you. If it's an out and back in a day, the lowest possible average
speed is about 0.3mph. So what's your point?

So, in summary, Dutch and German sidewall generator or hub dynamo
front lights, and battery rear lights (or dynamo rear lights for that
matter) are good enough for backup and an added layer of visibility.
Both should be viewed as permanent emergency installations and
supplemented with hi-watt battery lights at the front and a flashing
LED (the Cateye LD1100 is the best unless you want to lash out for a
Dinotte rear light) at the back.

That's SMS talk.

So Steven is your bogeyman. So what?

So he talks crap.

See above - dynamo lights are entirely good enough for
primary lighting on their own, and with the new generation of LED lamps,
are
even better.

It is a matter of opinion, Clive. I see three purposes for lighting:
being seen, seeing, earning respect that makes cars give you space.
Dynamo lights are marginal to adequate for the first two and useless
for the third. So I back them up with hi-watt battery lights and make
sure.

Experience says otherwise.

Don't give yourself a hernia bending over backwards to be reasonable,
Clive; it doesn't suit.

Try not to pretend to be a reasonable human being, it doesn't suit. You're a
loser. And you're giving bad advice.

clive

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...

Here's some descriptive comparisons from my use of similar bikes:

I have an AXA generator on my Gazelle Toulouse, with the disc brake.
The Toulouse was same as the Chamonix but with the disc/sidewall
generator replacing the Chamonix's hub dynamo/rollerbrake combo.
Perhaps Gazelle did it to keep the weight low, or perhaps to keep the
Toulouse price the same as the Chamonix. Electra may have similarly
confused motives with the Amsterdam.

The AXA sidewall generator on my Gazelle Toulouse does not make a
weaker light than the hub dynamo on my Trek L700 Navigator. You can
use either light as an only light to ride by on lit streets streets;
they also help you be seen. Neither light is strong enough to use as
an only light on strange unlit roads; they will just about do on
familiar unlit roads. On both the sidewall generator and the hub
dynamo you have very substantial part of their available light already
at only 6 or 7 mph; however, the light dies altogether when you stop
(you can get socalled standlights; the only useful ones have
capacitors and light up the main light at full power). I use 5W flood
and 10W spot battery lights in addition to the generator/dynamo
lights. I would strongly suggest that you transfer whatever battery
lights you have on your current bike, or buy good battery lights for
your new bike.

The choice between the sidewall generator/hub dynamo therefore has to
be made on another consideration.

It will probably cost 100-150 bucks to get a front wheel with a dynamo
hub and rollerbrake built in to match the style and rear wheel of an
Amsterdam.

The point of a hub dynamo light is that it is always there, that it
gets you home when your batteries suddenly clock out, that it adds to
your visibility. The generator light ditto. But the hub dynamo has the
advantage that it works under all conditions. The question is, if you
will have hi-watt battery lights anyway, will the conditions in which
you ride (slush? ice?) so often make the sidewall generator unusable
as to justify spending extra money? (I have no experience of cycling
in such conditions, so I have no advice.)

A word about the lights that will come on your Amsterdam:

The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
enough for really adverse circumstances.

The rear light is probably either a Basta or a Spanninga. These are
good lights in their Dutch environment, where a car driver who hits a
cyclist is automatically held to be in the wrong unless there are
mitigating circumstances, but in Chicago (or anywhere outside the
Benelux) they are not bright and obvious enough. On my Trek I have the
best of that lot, the Spaninga Ultra. It's greatest feature is that
after a 50 hours it is almost as brightly visible as in the first
hour, and it has space for a pair of spare batteries inside. (The
Toulouse has a custom Gazelle light, made for them by Basta; it too is
automatic, it too is very economical, it too is not bright enough by
itself to make me feel secure.) I kept the Spanninga rear light on the
Trek because it is very lightweight and very economical and because it
switches itself on at dusk, but I promply backed it up with a Cateye
LD-1100 which is totally illegal in the Benelux and Germany...

****

So, in summary, Dutch and German sidewall generator or hub dynamo
front lights, and battery rear lights (or dynamo rear lights for that
matter) are good enough for backup and an added layer of visibility.
Both should be viewed as permanent emergency installations and
supplemented with hi-watt battery lights at the front and a flashing
LED (the Cateye LD1100 is the best unless you want to lash out for a
Dinotte rear light) at the back.

Thus, whether you should accept the sidewall generator or spend extra
on a hub dynamo/rollerbrake/wheel depends on your view of how many
days in the year riding conditions will make the sidewall generator
work unacceptably and thereby compromise a secondary system.

HTH.

Andre Jute
If you aren't paranoid, why are you a cyclist?

It sounds like I will just go with the Electra stock AXA sidewall generator
on this bike. I will see how it goes. I like DiNotte lights, and their
after-sale support. So I might buy another set for this new bike, if
necessary. I will still be riding my folder, but only in good weather. So
those lights are going to stay on the folder.

J.

"bob prohaska's usenet account" wrote in message
...
Jay wrote:
OK, guys, this is really it. I need to spend my tax return this week,
even
before I get it.

My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going
this
route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design,
they
would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.

Hub dynamos are expensive, heavy and troublefree. If you're
hillclimbing or poor, I'd avoid them. Otherwise, they're fine.

Having said that, friction-drive dynamos aren't all that troublesome,
weigh and cost a bunch less and are easily replaced if they quit.
Just take care they're mounted correctly.

bob prohaska


I was mainly wondering if, with my riding conditions, this friction-drive
dynamo would be a bad choice. Sounds like most people think it will be OK.
If Electa offered a hub dynamo as an option, I would go with it.

J.

"Tosspot" wrote in message
...

For my tuppence worth, a hub dynamo outperform a bottle dynamo all the
time. It doesn't slip in the wet or ice, it doesn't wear out tyre walls,
it doesn't need switching on and off, it doesn't need keeping straight, it
doesn't need rubbers, it has less drag, it's quieter...

So, if you are intent on a dynamo system, a Shimano Nexus hub dynamo with
B+M Senso+Standlight front and rear. Fit and forget. Tried and tested
over two winters, I will never go back.

However, as others have pointed out, unless you plan on a fair bit of
night mileage, an LED light system must surely be the way forward for
simplicity and effectiveness.

I was certainly looking for comparisons between hub and bottle dynamos. But
I guess, I would need to have another wheel built. I might eventually do
that, but not right now.

J.