Yikes! Di2

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 8:00:26 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 4:36:28 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
I was talking to the man in the bike shop yesterday about how to wire up the Di2. He said to being in everything and let him look at it so I did..

He said that the lever only used a single connector and that was prone to some sort of troubles that I don't think he was knowledgeable about. That all of the new levers had three connectors each.

As an engineer none of that makes sense to me but I'll believe him. This set was only $600 and that's less than the cost of the levers alone on eBay.

Does anyone know what the problems with the levers is and how a couple of switches need "upgraded" software that won't work in these levers?

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector push-on-style connector. That would make sense so that nothing could get into the connector in rain etc. But I cannot find any reference to a connector like that and the local shops really don't know much about it. I would think - one wire each to the levers, one wire to the battery supply and one wire each to the front and rear derailleur. I'm sure that the bottom bracket junction block gives you the ability to have reasonable length wires from the stem unit and then you can buy the correct length wires to the front and rear derailleurs.

Tom connect each shifter to the 'stem' connection box, connect 'stem' connection box to 'bottom' bracket connection box, connect FD to 'bottom' bracket connection box, connect RD to 'bottom' bracket connection box and connect the battery to the 'bottom' bracket connection box. All with the same cables only different in length. This leaves you with two unused ports in the 'stem' connection box. Stub those. It is pretty straight forward.

Lou

Well, that isn't the problem.

1. What is the power line that goes into the stem unit? The middle connector of the three connector row?

2. I assume that the connector faces forward. So I also assume that the left of the two connector row goes to the front derailleur shifter (left) and the right goes to the rear derailleur shifter (right).

3. This would suggest that the power cable goes down to the (long) battery mount. Is this connector any different than the others? I have been unable to obtain any picture of the back of these battery holder to ascertain that.. And this stuff is really too expensive to guess at.

4. Also, looking at the length of wires being sold it appears that the bottom bracket junction block isn't particularly necessary since you could run a single wire all the way back to the rear derailleur and directly to the front derailleur using the wire covers and probably some zip ties at each end to make sure there are no forces that might tear the wire covers off.

5. It appears that you could buy a battery charger that plugs in to the stem unit or one in which you unplug the battery and push it into the charger. I'm not sue which would be a better choice.

Contrary to Frank's ideas, it appears that once you know this stuff it is petty easy - easier than running cables and attempting to get the tension correct and having to readjust it a dozen times to get everything shifting properly.

Judging from the way they advertise the components no one knows how to use this stuff. I don't loke the idea of having to have a battery so I certainly am pretty sue I won't have another Di2 set-up but the truth is that the Ultegra and Dura Ace cable and brake levers work all hell and gone better than Campy. Even the 105 levers I put on my Ridley cross bike work more cleanly and don't jump gears like the Campy. My Campy stuff on the Colnago simply cannot be adjusted to not jump in at least one gear. That isn't engineering - it's art.

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 7:49:16 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
I was talking to the man in the bike shop yesterday about how to wire up the Di2. He said to being in everything and let him look at it so I did.

He said that the lever only used a single connector and that was prone to some sort of troubles that I don't think he was knowledgeable about. That all of the new levers had three connectors each.

As an engineer none of that makes sense to me but I'll believe him. This set was only $600 and that's less than the cost of the levers alone on eBay.

Does anyone know what the problems with the levers is and how a couple of switches need "upgraded" software that won't work in these levers?

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector push-on-style connector. That would make sense so that nothing could get into the connector in rain etc. But I cannot find any reference to a connector like that and the local shops really don't know much about it. I would think - one wire each to the levers, one wire to the battery supply and one wire each to the front and rear derailleur. I'm sure that the bottom bracket junction block gives you the ability to have reasonable length wires from the stem unit and then you can buy the correct length wires to the front and rear derailleurs.

And on the "shift cable vs. electronics" debate: it's vanishingly rare
for anyone to say "I can't figure out how this shift cable is supposed
to to connect from the lever to the derailleur."

Ah, the price of "progress"!

Not true. If you have installed a modern Shimano cable FD with adjustable "converter," routing to the anchor point is not really intuitive. https://si..shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-FD0002-05-ENG.pdf It takes some investigation and measuring to determine the routing. Even old RDs had alternative anchor points for different speed systems. People would strip the aluminum threads on old FD cable anchors, which is not a problem with plug-and-play eTubes.

The benefit of progress is a really smooth shifting. Running/connecting Di2 eTube is not difficult. Ikea furniture is harder. Most phone apps are harder.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 5:48:58 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 8:00:26 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 4:36:28 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
I was talking to the man in the bike shop yesterday about how to wire up the Di2. He said to being in everything and let him look at it so I did.

He said that the lever only used a single connector and that was prone to some sort of troubles that I don't think he was knowledgeable about. That all of the new levers had three connectors each.

As an engineer none of that makes sense to me but I'll believe him. This set was only $600 and that's less than the cost of the levers alone on eBay.

Does anyone know what the problems with the levers is and how a couple of switches need "upgraded" software that won't work in these levers?

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector push-on-style connector. That would make sense so that nothing could get into the connector in rain etc. But I cannot find any reference to a connector like that and the local shops really don't know much about it. I would think - one wire each to the levers, one wire to the battery supply and one wire each to the front and rear derailleur. I'm sure that the bottom bracket junction block gives you the ability to have reasonable length wires from the stem unit and then you can buy the correct length wires to the front and rear derailleurs.

Tom connect each shifter to the 'stem' connection box, connect 'stem' connection box to 'bottom' bracket connection box, connect FD to 'bottom' bracket connection box, connect RD to 'bottom' bracket connection box and connect the battery to the 'bottom' bracket connection box. All with the same cables only different in length. This leaves you with two unused ports in the 'stem' connection box. Stub those. It is pretty straight forward.

Lou

Well, that isn't the problem.

1. What is the power line that goes into the stem unit? The middle connector of the three connector row?

It doesn't matter.


2. I assume that the connector faces forward. So I also assume that the left of the two connector row goes to the front derailleur shifter (left) and the right goes to the rear derailleur shifter (right).

It doesn't matter but it makes the nicest routing though.


3. This would suggest that the power cable goes down to the (long) battery mount. Is this connector any different than the others? I have been unable to obtain any picture of the back of these battery holder to ascertain that. And this stuff is really too expensive to guess at.

I suggest that you go to the Shimano website and look at the documentation :
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-0001A-006-ENG.pdf


4. Also, looking at the length of wires being sold it appears that the bottom bracket junction block isn't particularly necessary since you could run a single wire all the way back to the rear derailleur and directly to the front derailleur using the wire covers and probably some zip ties at each end to make sure there are no forces that might tear the wire covers off.

I think it is necessary but I can't explain why.


5. It appears that you could buy a battery charger that plugs in to the stem unit or one in which you unplug the battery and push it into the charger. I'm not sue which would be a better choice.

The first option is for when you have an internal battery the second for an external battery..


Contrary to Frank's ideas, it appears that once you know this stuff it is petty easy - easier than running cables and attempting to get the tension correct and having to readjust it a dozen times to get everything shifting properly.

Don't pay attention to Frank. The wiring scheme is pretty simple and if Frank can't understand that well.....


Judging from the way they advertise the components no one knows how to use this stuff. I don't loke the idea of having to have a battery so I certainly am pretty sue I won't have another Di2 set-up but the truth is that the Ultegra and Dura Ace cable and brake levers work all hell and gone better than Campy. Even the 105 levers I put on my Ridley cross bike work more cleanly and don't jump gears like the Campy. My Campy stuff on the Colnago simply cannot be adjusted to not jump in at least one gear. That isn't engineering - it's art.


I can't comment on that. Both my Campy and Shimano setups work flawless.

Lou

On 12/19/2019 9:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
I was talking to the man in the bike shop yesterday about how to wire up the Di2. He said to being in everything and let him look at it so I did.

He said that the lever only used a single connector and that was prone to some sort of troubles that I don't think he was knowledgeable about. That all of the new levers had three connectors each.

As an engineer none of that makes sense to me but I'll believe him. This set was only $600 and that's less than the cost of the levers alone on eBay.

Does anyone know what the problems with the levers is and how a couple of switches need "upgraded" software that won't work in these levers?

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector push-on-style connector. That would make sense so that nothing could get into the connector in rain etc. But I cannot find any reference to a connector like that and the local shops really don't know much about it. I would think - one wire each to the levers, one wire to the battery supply and one wire each to the front and rear derailleur. I'm sure that the bottom bracket junction block gives you the ability to have reasonable length wires from the stem unit and then you can buy the correct length wires to the front and rear derailleurs.


Shimano products are child proof. You have the actual part
number because it's actually (Hey Valentino! Get with the
program!) on the actual part:

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ...SM-EW90-B.html

Documentation is also nicely done, very accessible.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/19/2019 9:49 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-8, Tom
Kunich wrote:
I was talking to the man in the bike shop yesterday about
how to wire up the Di2. He said to being in everything
and let him look at it so I did.

He said that the lever only used a single connector and
that was prone to some sort of troubles that I don't
think he was knowledgeable about. That all of the new
levers had three connectors each.

As an engineer none of that makes sense to me but I'll
believe him. This set was only $600 and that's less than
the cost of the levers alone on eBay.

Does anyone know what the problems with the levers is and
how a couple of switches need "upgraded" software that
won't work in these levers?

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector
push-on-style connector. That would make sense so that
nothing could get into the connector in rain etc. But I
cannot find any reference to a connector like that and the
local shops really don't know much about it. I would think
- one wire each to the levers, one wire to the battery
supply and one wire each to the front and rear derailleur.
I'm sure that the bottom bracket junction block gives you
the ability to have reasonable length wires from the stem
unit and then you can buy the correct length wires to the
front and rear derailleurs.

And on the "shift cable vs. electronics" debate: it's
vanishingly rare for anyone to say "I can't figure out how
this shift cable is supposed to to connect from the lever to
the derailleur."

Ah, the price of "progress"!


You would be wrong about that. A significant number of
riders clamp gear wires on the wrong side of the anchor
bolt. Consistent problem for many years.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 6:30:07 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 7:49:16 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
I was talking to the man in the bike shop yesterday about how to wire up the Di2. He said to being in everything and let him look at it so I did.

He said that the lever only used a single connector and that was prone to some sort of troubles that I don't think he was knowledgeable about. That all of the new levers had three connectors each.

As an engineer none of that makes sense to me but I'll believe him. This set was only $600 and that's less than the cost of the levers alone on eBay.

Does anyone know what the problems with the levers is and how a couple of switches need "upgraded" software that won't work in these levers?

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector push-on-style connector. That would make sense so that nothing could get into the connector in rain etc. But I cannot find any reference to a connector like that and the local shops really don't know much about it. I would think - one wire each to the levers, one wire to the battery supply and one wire each to the front and rear derailleur. I'm sure that the bottom bracket junction block gives you the ability to have reasonable length wires from the stem unit and then you can buy the correct length wires to the front and rear derailleurs.

And on the "shift cable vs. electronics" debate: it's vanishingly rare
for anyone to say "I can't figure out how this shift cable is supposed
to to connect from the lever to the derailleur."

Ah, the price of "progress"!

Not true. If you have installed a modern Shimano cable FD with adjustable "converter," routing to the anchor point is not really intuitive. https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-FD0002-05-ENG.pdf It takes some investigation and measuring to determine the routing. Even old RDs had alternative anchor points for different speed systems. People would strip the aluminum threads on old FD cable anchors, which is not a problem with plug-and-play eTubes.

The benefit of progress is a really smooth shifting. Running/connecting Di2 eTube is not difficult. Ikea furniture is harder. Most phone apps are harder.

It starts with the willingness to learn something new/different ..and once installed you are done. In my case for 6 years already.

Lou

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 6:59:00 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/19/2019 9:49 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-8, Tom
Kunich wrote:
I was talking to the man in the bike shop yesterday about
how to wire up the Di2. He said to being in everything
and let him look at it so I did.

He said that the lever only used a single connector and
that was prone to some sort of troubles that I don't
think he was knowledgeable about. That all of the new
levers had three connectors each.

As an engineer none of that makes sense to me but I'll
believe him. This set was only $600 and that's less than
the cost of the levers alone on eBay.

Does anyone know what the problems with the levers is and
how a couple of switches need "upgraded" software that
won't work in these levers?

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector
push-on-style connector. That would make sense so that
nothing could get into the connector in rain etc. But I
cannot find any reference to a connector like that and the
local shops really don't know much about it. I would think
- one wire each to the levers, one wire to the battery
supply and one wire each to the front and rear derailleur.
I'm sure that the bottom bracket junction block gives you
the ability to have reasonable length wires from the stem
unit and then you can buy the correct length wires to the
front and rear derailleurs.

And on the "shift cable vs. electronics" debate: it's
vanishingly rare for anyone to say "I can't figure out how
this shift cable is supposed to to connect from the lever to
the derailleur."

Ah, the price of "progress"!


You would be wrong about that. A significant number of
riders clamp gear wires on the wrong side of the anchor
bolt. Consistent problem for many years.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Everybody knows that but Frank conveniently forgets all this in his arguments.

Lou

On 12/19/2019 11:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Contrary to Frank's ideas, it appears that once you know this stuff it is petty easy - easier than running cables and attempting to get the tension correct and having to readjust it a dozen times to get everything shifting properly.

Once you know this stuff, it will be pretty easy - until they come out
with the next "improvement." Then you'll have to learn it all over
again. Meanwhile, the software will have gone through three updates,
each with a different user interface. The next version of the software
won't even run on whatever computer you had; it may require you to move
everything to your cell phone.

And if and when part of the mechanism breaks, the generation of
equipment you own will no longer be available. Newer generations will
not be compatible. You may be able, theoretically, to hack something
into compatibility, but it will involve hours of internet searching to
find the hack.

All of this will be fine with most of the system's buyers, because they
won't want anything sold more than ten years ago. And after all, why
waste all muscular work pushing a button? Only a retrogrouch would
refuse to use voice command shifting.

"Alexa, check Google Maps to see the gradient of the next hill, and
check Google Weather to see the speed of the headwind. Check my blood
sugar level and refer to my sleep record from last night, an choose a
good gear for me. Alexa? Got that? Alexa? Are you there?? Alexa???
Hurry!! ****!!!"

And your shifting system responds:

"I'm sorry, I'm not capable of ****ting. I don't have that bodily function."


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 12/19/2019 12:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 7:49:16 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And on the "shift cable vs. electronics" debate: it's vanishingly rare
for anyone to say "I can't figure out how this shift cable is supposed
to to connect from the lever to the derailleur."

Ah, the price of "progress"!

Not true. If you have installed a modern Shimano cable FD with adjustable "converter," routing to the anchor point is not really intuitive. https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-FD0002-05-ENG.pdf It takes some investigation and measuring to determine the routing.

I still think it's vanishingly rare. Yes, it's possible to make a
mechanical system so complex that one dare not work on it without a ten
page manual - or one dare not work on it at all. (See "STI.") But it's
far from the norm, and in my view it's inappropriate for bike hardware.
It's an embarrassment to the machine.

Even old RDs had alternative anchor points for different speed systems.

True, I made that mistake once. But it was a binary choice - either
clamp it here or clamp it there. No wiring diagram needed.

People would strip the aluminum threads on old FD cable anchors, which is not a problem with plug-and-play eTubes.

I'm not saying mechanical devices are immune to problems. Even
electronic shifting can and will have mechanical problems. But
mechanical problems are usually diagnosed by visible inspection.

Electronic problems? "Plug diagnostic tool FMB-2900 into the maintenance
interface port, then power up your system. If the system does not power
up, hold CTRL-ALT-DEL until the red LED flashes three times, then..."

The benefit of progress is a really smooth shifting.

Wowee!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 12/19/2019 1:08 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 6:59:00 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/19/2019 9:49 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And on the "shift cable vs. electronics" debate: it's
vanishingly rare for anyone to say "I can't figure out how
this shift cable is supposed to to connect from the lever to
the derailleur."

Ah, the price of "progress"!


You would be wrong about that. A significant number of
riders clamp gear wires on the wrong side of the anchor
bolt. Consistent problem for many years.


Everybody knows that but Frank conveniently forgets all this in his arguments.

As I said, I made that mistake once. But it was a binary choice, and I
should have been able to see it. Compare the answer to my problem -
"Clamp it on the other side of the screw" - with the answers to Tom's
questions. Which has the simpler solution?

--
- Frank Krygowski