Yikes! Di2

On 12/19/2019 12:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 11:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Contrary to Frank's ideas, it appears that once you know
this stuff it is petty easy - easier than running cables
and attempting to get the tension correct and having to
readjust it a dozen times to get everything shifting
properly.

Once you know this stuff, it will be pretty easy - until
they come out with the next "improvement." Then you'll have
to learn it all over again. Meanwhile, the software will
have gone through three updates, each with a different user
interface. The next version of the software won't even run
on whatever computer you had; it may require you to move
everything to your cell phone.

And if and when part of the mechanism breaks, the generation
of equipment you own will no longer be available. Newer
generations will not be compatible. You may be able,
theoretically, to hack something into compatibility, but it
will involve hours of internet searching to find the hack.

All of this will be fine with most of the system's buyers,
because they won't want anything sold more than ten years
ago. And after all, why waste all muscular work pushing a
button? Only a retrogrouch would refuse to use voice command
shifting.

"Alexa, check Google Maps to see the gradient of the next
hill, and check Google Weather to see the speed of the
headwind. Check my blood sugar level and refer to my sleep
record from last night, an choose a good gear for me. Alexa?
Got that? Alexa? Are you there?? Alexa??? Hurry!! ****!!!"

And your shifting system responds:

"I'm sorry, I'm not capable of ****ting. I don't have that
bodily function."



Sorta.
And yet we survived CP/M, C-Basic, Lotus macro language.
BASICA, C and beyond, each because they offered some benefit
we valued more than the learning time.

No one twists elbows to force sales of new equipment and as
long as fixed gear (since 1885!) remains a viable and
popular option, you can't say 'everyone's buying this new
system'. Some are, some aren't, which is fine by me.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 7:40:28 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 1:08 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 6:59:00 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/19/2019 9:49 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And on the "shift cable vs. electronics" debate: it's
vanishingly rare for anyone to say "I can't figure out how
this shift cable is supposed to to connect from the lever to
the derailleur."

Ah, the price of "progress"!


You would be wrong about that. A significant number of
riders clamp gear wires on the wrong side of the anchor
bolt. Consistent problem for many years.


Everybody knows that but Frank conveniently forgets all this in his arguments.

As I said, I made that mistake once. But it was a binary choice, and I
should have been able to see it. Compare the answer to my problem -
"Clamp it on the other side of the screw" - with the answers to Tom's
questions. Which has the simpler solution?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Tom is stubborn and took some hits on his head in the past so it takes some more time but at least he is trying. How simple a mechanical system may look like 80% of the non geek people don't know anything how it works even if it is binary or visible. Riding buddy of mine thought he had a loose headset. When I moved his bike back and forth with applied fron brake I saw his wheel moving. 'Is it a through axle'? I asked. 'Yes' he said. 'Tighten it' I said.

Lou

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 07:36:25 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector push-on-style connector.

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95782
Durace Di2 basically ran 'hard wire' connections point to point.
Whereas Ultegra Di2 relies on a CanBUS communications protocol
for its signals. Which is why it can use a 2-wire harness
instead of 5.

No, the 2 are not interchangeable. It will be much more
difficult to hot wire your own buttons as well as "homebrew"
harnesses and batteries to the new Ultegra Di2.

There are some other comments in the above thread worth reading.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 10:49:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

And on the "shift cable vs. electronics" debate: it's vanishingly rare
for anyone to say "I can't figure out how this shift cable is supposed
to to connect from the lever to the derailleur."

Ah, the price of "progress"!

Once a technology is converted from mechanical to electronic, there's
no going back. The camera, automobile, kitchen appliances, SSD
drives, and such should offer a clue as to how it works. I can't
think of any product that was upgraded from electronic to mechanical.
It's always the other direction. However, I may have missed
something.

It's difficult to stop progress. You will eventually be assimilated,
probably kicking and screaming, into the wonderful world of electric
cycling. Resistance is futile.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thursday, 19 December 2019 10:49:16 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
I was talking to the man in the bike shop yesterday about how to wire up the Di2. He said to being in everything and let him look at it so I did.

He said that the lever only used a single connector and that was prone to some sort of troubles that I don't think he was knowledgeable about. That all of the new levers had three connectors each.

As an engineer none of that makes sense to me but I'll believe him. This set was only $600 and that's less than the cost of the levers alone on eBay.

Does anyone know what the problems with the levers is and how a couple of switches need "upgraded" software that won't work in these levers?

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector push-on-style connector. That would make sense so that nothing could get into the connector in rain etc. But I cannot find any reference to a connector like that and the local shops really don't know much about it. I would think - one wire each to the levers, one wire to the battery supply and one wire each to the front and rear derailleur. I'm sure that the bottom bracket junction block gives you the ability to have reasonable length wires from the stem unit and then you can buy the correct length wires to the front and rear derailleurs.

And on the "shift cable vs. electronics" debate: it's vanishingly rare
for anyone to say "I can't figure out how this shift cable is supposed
to to connect from the lever to the derailleur."

Ah, the price of "progress"!

--
- Frank Krygowski

Ah, I've seen people come into a bicycle shop or bicycle co-op after putting on a derailleur cable and not having the shifting work right because they had attached the cable the wrong way at the cable anchor bolt.

I can't tell you how many times I and others have fiddled with a cable operated front derailleur and indexed shifter for some time before we could get it to shift properly and consistently.

Cheers

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 9:57:02 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 5:48:58 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 8:00:26 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 4:36:28 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
I was talking to the man in the bike shop yesterday about how to wire up the Di2. He said to being in everything and let him look at it so I did.

He said that the lever only used a single connector and that was prone to some sort of troubles that I don't think he was knowledgeable about. That all of the new levers had three connectors each.

As an engineer none of that makes sense to me but I'll believe him. This set was only $600 and that's less than the cost of the levers alone on eBay.

Does anyone know what the problems with the levers is and how a couple of switches need "upgraded" software that won't work in these levers?

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector push-on-style connector. That would make sense so that nothing could get into the connector in rain etc. But I cannot find any reference to a connector like that and the local shops really don't know much about it. I would think - one wire each to the levers, one wire to the battery supply and one wire each to the front and rear derailleur. I'm sure that the bottom bracket junction block gives you the ability to have reasonable length wires from the stem unit and then you can buy the correct length wires to the front and rear derailleurs.

Tom connect each shifter to the 'stem' connection box, connect 'stem' connection box to 'bottom' bracket connection box, connect FD to 'bottom' bracket connection box, connect RD to 'bottom' bracket connection box and connect the battery to the 'bottom' bracket connection box. All with the same cables only different in length. This leaves you with two unused ports in the 'stem' connection box. Stub those. It is pretty straight forward.

Lou

Well, that isn't the problem.

1. What is the power line that goes into the stem unit? The middle connector of the three connector row?

It doesn't matter.


2. I assume that the connector faces forward. So I also assume that the left of the two connector row goes to the front derailleur shifter (left) and the right goes to the rear derailleur shifter (right).

It doesn't matter but it makes the nicest routing though.


3. This would suggest that the power cable goes down to the (long) battery mount. Is this connector any different than the others? I have been unable to obtain any picture of the back of these battery holder to ascertain that. And this stuff is really too expensive to guess at.

I suggest that you go to the Shimano website and look at the documentation :
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-0001A-006-ENG.pdf


4. Also, looking at the length of wires being sold it appears that the bottom bracket junction block isn't particularly necessary since you could run a single wire all the way back to the rear derailleur and directly to the front derailleur using the wire covers and probably some zip ties at each end to make sure there are no forces that might tear the wire covers off.

I think it is necessary but I can't explain why.


5. It appears that you could buy a battery charger that plugs in to the stem unit or one in which you unplug the battery and push it into the charger. I'm not sue which would be a better choice.

The first option is for when you have an internal battery the second for an external battery..


Contrary to Frank's ideas, it appears that once you know this stuff it is petty easy - easier than running cables and attempting to get the tension correct and having to readjust it a dozen times to get everything shifting properly.

Don't pay attention to Frank. The wiring scheme is pretty simple and if Frank can't understand that well.....


Judging from the way they advertise the components no one knows how to use this stuff. I don't loke the idea of having to have a battery so I certainly am pretty sue I won't have another Di2 set-up but the truth is that the Ultegra and Dura Ace cable and brake levers work all hell and gone better than Campy. Even the 105 levers I put on my Ridley cross bike work more cleanly and don't jump gears like the Campy. My Campy stuff on the Colnago simply cannot be adjusted to not jump in at least one gear. That isn't engineering - it's art.


I can't comment on that. Both my Campy and Shimano setups work flawless.

Lou

The heart of the system is that stem unit which contains a microprocessor. The left and right levers absolutely make a difference. One of the drawings in that manual show the orientation of the stem unit and the routing of the wires left and right. Those are the only important routings.

I think I figured it out. Only a single wire runs from the stem unit to the junction block under the bottom bracket. This carries the power to the power to the stem unit and encoded signals to the derailleurs.

The junction block then splits off a wire to the power supply, one to the front derailleur and another to the rear derailleur. They ALL have the same power and signal on them and hence the same connector powers the derailleurs and sends an encoded signal which the individual derailleur decodes as to whether it is for the front or rear.

I suppose that is pretty clever but I would also be a little curious as to the electrical noise sensitivity. They are using tiny amounts of power and riding under AC power lines is pretty noisy.

The battery is only good for a half watt/hour and one of the guys I know claims that the battery is supposed to be good for some absolutely preposterous period of time.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 12:46:40 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 10:49:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

And on the "shift cable vs. electronics" debate: it's vanishingly rare
for anyone to say "I can't figure out how this shift cable is supposed
to to connect from the lever to the derailleur."

Ah, the price of "progress"!

Once a technology is converted from mechanical to electronic, there's
no going back. The camera, automobile, kitchen appliances, SSD
drives, and such should offer a clue as to how it works. I can't
think of any product that was upgraded from electronic to mechanical.
It's always the other direction. However, I may have missed
something.

It's difficult to stop progress. You will eventually be assimilated,
probably kicking and screaming, into the wonderful world of electric
cycling. Resistance is futile.

But, some systems have not been converted to electrical/electronic
operation even after more than a thousand years. The first hand gun
seems to have been developed in China in about 1200 A.D. Manually
operated then and still manually operated today.

True the Gatling gun, the first rapid fire gun, developed in 1861, was
originally operated by a manual crank and has been "updated" to an
electrical motor to rotate the mechanism.

Will this be the future of the bicycle? Conversion from manual crank
to an electric motor to rotate the mechanism?
--
cheers,

John B.

On 12/19/2019 3:52 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 19 December 2019 10:49:16 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
I was talking to the man in the bike shop yesterday about how to wire up the Di2. He said to being in everything and let him look at it so I did.

He said that the lever only used a single connector and that was prone to some sort of troubles that I don't think he was knowledgeable about. That all of the new levers had three connectors each.

As an engineer none of that makes sense to me but I'll believe him. This set was only $600 and that's less than the cost of the levers alone on eBay.

Does anyone know what the problems with the levers is and how a couple of switches need "upgraded" software that won't work in these levers?

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector push-on-style connector. That would make sense so that nothing could get into the connector in rain etc. But I cannot find any reference to a connector like that and the local shops really don't know much about it. I would think - one wire each to the levers, one wire to the battery supply and one wire each to the front and rear derailleur. I'm sure that the bottom bracket junction block gives you the ability to have reasonable length wires from the stem unit and then you can buy the correct length wires to the front and rear derailleurs.

And on the "shift cable vs. electronics" debate: it's vanishingly rare
for anyone to say "I can't figure out how this shift cable is supposed
to to connect from the lever to the derailleur."

Ah, the price of "progress"!

--
- Frank Krygowski

Ah, I've seen people come into a bicycle shop or bicycle co-op after putting on a derailleur cable and not having the shifting work right because they had attached the cable the wrong way at the cable anchor bolt.

I can't tell you how many times I and others have fiddled with a cable operated front derailleur and indexed shifter for some time before we could get it to shift properly and consistently.

Indexed front shifter problems? I've never had a lick of trouble with an
indexed front shifter!

But that's because I've never had one on any of my bikes.
:-)

Index front shifting is a good example of unnecessary complication and
diminishing returns. Do you have two chainrings? They're already
indexed, even if they're friction! Push it all the way forward for one
ring, all the way back for the other! Why does it need to click?

It's very, very slightly more complicated if you have three chainrings.
For the middle ring, put the lever somewhere in the middle. Almost
anywhere will do, although if you hear scraping, you may need to fine
tune it.

(Complete disclosu My wife's mountain bike has an indexed front
triple. But it's given zero trouble, probably because she hasn't ridden
the bike more than 100 miles in its lifetime.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 4:13:22 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 3:52 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 19 December 2019 10:49:16 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
I was talking to the man in the bike shop yesterday about how to wire up the Di2. He said to being in everything and let him look at it so I did.

He said that the lever only used a single connector and that was prone to some sort of troubles that I don't think he was knowledgeable about. That all of the new levers had three connectors each.

As an engineer none of that makes sense to me but I'll believe him. This set was only $600 and that's less than the cost of the levers alone on eBay.

Does anyone know what the problems with the levers is and how a couple of switches need "upgraded" software that won't work in these levers?

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector push-on-style connector. That would make sense so that nothing could get into the connector in rain etc. But I cannot find any reference to a connector like that and the local shops really don't know much about it. I would think - one wire each to the levers, one wire to the battery supply and one wire each to the front and rear derailleur. I'm sure that the bottom bracket junction block gives you the ability to have reasonable length wires from the stem unit and then you can buy the correct length wires to the front and rear derailleurs.

And on the "shift cable vs. electronics" debate: it's vanishingly rare
for anyone to say "I can't figure out how this shift cable is supposed
to to connect from the lever to the derailleur."

Ah, the price of "progress"!

--
- Frank Krygowski

Ah, I've seen people come into a bicycle shop or bicycle co-op after putting on a derailleur cable and not having the shifting work right because they had attached the cable the wrong way at the cable anchor bolt.

I can't tell you how many times I and others have fiddled with a cable operated front derailleur and indexed shifter for some time before we could get it to shift properly and consistently.

Indexed front shifter problems? I've never had a lick of trouble with an
indexed front shifter!

But that's because I've never had one on any of my bikes.
:-)

Index front shifting is a good example of unnecessary complication and
diminishing returns. Do you have two chainrings? They're already
indexed, even if they're friction! Push it all the way forward for one
ring, all the way back for the other! Why does it need to click?

It's very, very slightly more complicated if you have three chainrings.
For the middle ring, put the lever somewhere in the middle. Almost
anywhere will do, although if you hear scraping, you may need to fine
tune it.

(Complete disclosu My wife's mountain bike has an indexed front
triple. But it's given zero trouble, probably because she hasn't ridden
the bike more than 100 miles in its lifetime.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, How many people do you suppose there are left in the world that use downtube shifters?

On 12/19/2019 3:28 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 07:36:25 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector push-on-style connector.

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95782
Durace Di2 basically ran 'hard wire' connections point to point.
Whereas Ultegra Di2 relies on a CanBUS communications protocol
for its signals. Which is why it can use a 2-wire harness
instead of 5.

No, the 2 are not interchangeable. It will be much more
difficult to hot wire your own buttons as well as "homebrew"
harnesses and batteries to the new Ultegra Di2.

There are some other comments in the above thread worth reading.

And following links from the
"Updateyour firmware!"
https://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/ne...ease_ipad.html

I hope I never have a bicycle with firmware.

--
- Frank Krygowski