Power meter news

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 11:59:05 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/4/2020 12:06 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 2:52:09 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 10:39:31 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/3/2020 2:58 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 11:00:05 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
Hey Tom, maybe those craigslist sellers are just ready to
upgrade to Campagnolo:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/12/30/pat...gauge-patents/


I kind of think that they are worried that the industry is leaving them behind. Shimano Ultegra is killing them in the marketplace at the moment.

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 12:34:45 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 10:16:03 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 3:05:06 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 2:52:09 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 10:39:31 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/3/2020 2:58 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 11:00:05 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
Hey Tom, maybe those craigslist sellers are just ready to
upgrade to Campagnolo:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/12/30/pat...gauge-patents/


I kind of think that they are worried that the industry is leaving them behind. Shimano Ultegra is killing them in the marketplace at the moment.


SRAM beats both for 2019 pro group volume worldwide.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Really? More Force gruppos than Ultegra? Hard to believe if I look around here.

Hard to believe having used Ultegra and SRAM Red. I don't like double tap. ETap is interesting without the wires, but I know nothing about it otherwise. The hydro levers are ugly, and I prefer dealing with mineral oil over DOT fluid anyway.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think I was just discussing this - Mineral oil has a rather high viscosity which makes it difficult to bleed properly. Dot brake fluid has a viscosity something like 80 times lower hence making it easier to bleed free of air. Rear brakes with the long tubing and fairly flat run are especially liable for spongy rear brakes.

Since Shimano supplies mineral oil that is what I would use since seals can be sensitive to different types of fluid.

DOT fluid would kill the seals in a Shimano system, so its not even an option. Mineral oil is not difficult to bleed or fill, at least for me -- and the problem most people have with Shimano rear discs is that they are too responsive, at least compared to cable actuated rim brakes or cable discs.

The benefit of DOT fluid is that it is cheap, but I don't like using paint-eating solvents, and I use a Shimano group, so I'm tied to mineral oil anyway. I have road discs and ride in a moderate climate, so fluid boiling points aren't that important to me -- to the extent that mineral oil and DOT fluid really differ that much. Compressibility of mineral oil versus DOT fluid also makes no difference because my current system is so responsive that any more braking would not be a good thing. If I'm sloppy with mineral oil, the only bad result is that I waste money. I don't lose paint or skin. That's the main reason I like mineral oil.


-- Jay Beattie.

Errr... be a bit shy about identifying a brake fluid simply as a "DOT
fluid" as there are 4 major types of "DOT" brake fluid. DOT 2 is a
caster oil based fluid, DOT 3 and 4 are glycol based while DOT 5 is
Silicone based. There is also a DOT 5.1 that is basically a glycol
based fluid for high temperature use,
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 04 Jan 2020 13:58:54 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 1/4/2020 12:06 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 2:52:09 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 10:39:31 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/3/2020 2:58 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 11:00:05 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
Hey Tom, maybe those craigslist sellers are just ready to
upgrade to Campagnolo:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/12/30/pat...gauge-patents/


I kind of think that they are worried that the industry is leaving them behind. Shimano Ultegra is killing them in the marketplace at the moment.


SRAM beats both for 2019 pro group volume worldwide.


Really? More Force gruppos than Ultegra? Hard to believe if I look around here.

Lou

I agree with you and Hambini has said that the workmanship on the SRAM components is pure ****. He showed Force cranks with 2 mm of free play in the cranks around the bearings. I don't like the idea of the "double tap" shifting since on hard climbs my hands will get numb and I can't tell how hard I'm pushing the levers. I still am quite doubtful of SRAM wireless shifting around high voltage power lines since there is a hell of a lot of magnetic and electro-static fields. You can cure that problem in the design easily enough but it requires stronger signals which in turn means shorter battery life and wireless has batteries in each component.


Clarification- I may have misunderstood my SRAM management
source last week. SRAM sold more _electronic shift control_
groups than Shimano and way more than Campagnolo EPS.

Simply curious. Is there a difference in price? Or is there a
difference in perceived quality or functionability?
--
cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 5:16:13 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 12:34:45 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 10:16:03 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 3:05:06 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 2:52:09 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 10:39:31 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/3/2020 2:58 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 11:00:05 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
Hey Tom, maybe those craigslist sellers are just ready to
upgrade to Campagnolo:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/12/30/pat...gauge-patents/


I kind of think that they are worried that the industry is leaving them behind. Shimano Ultegra is killing them in the marketplace at the moment.


SRAM beats both for 2019 pro group volume worldwide.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Really? More Force gruppos than Ultegra? Hard to believe if I look around here.

Hard to believe having used Ultegra and SRAM Red. I don't like double tap. ETap is interesting without the wires, but I know nothing about it otherwise. The hydro levers are ugly, and I prefer dealing with mineral oil over DOT fluid anyway.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think I was just discussing this - Mineral oil has a rather high viscosity which makes it difficult to bleed properly. Dot brake fluid has a viscosity something like 80 times lower hence making it easier to bleed free of air. Rear brakes with the long tubing and fairly flat run are especially liable for spongy rear brakes.

Since Shimano supplies mineral oil that is what I would use since seals can be sensitive to different types of fluid.

DOT fluid would kill the seals in a Shimano system, so its not even an option. Mineral oil is not difficult to bleed or fill, at least for me -- and the problem most people have with Shimano rear discs is that they are too responsive, at least compared to cable actuated rim brakes or cable discs..

The benefit of DOT fluid is that it is cheap, but I don't like using paint-eating solvents, and I use a Shimano group, so I'm tied to mineral oil anyway. I have road discs and ride in a moderate climate, so fluid boiling points aren't that important to me -- to the extent that mineral oil and DOT fluid really differ that much. Compressibility of mineral oil versus DOT fluid also makes no difference because my current system is so responsive that any more braking would not be a good thing. If I'm sloppy with mineral oil, the only bad result is that I waste money. I don't lose paint or skin. That's the main reason I like mineral oil.


-- Jay Beattie.

Errr... be a bit shy about identifying a brake fluid simply as a "DOT
fluid" as there are 4 major types of "DOT" brake fluid. DOT 2 is a
caster oil based fluid, DOT 3 and 4 are glycol based while DOT 5 is
Silicone based. There is also a DOT 5.1 that is basically a glycol
based fluid for high temperature use,
--
cheers,

John B.

SRAM uses DOT 5.1

-- Jay Beattie

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:22:21 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 5:16:13 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 12:34:45 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 10:16:03 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 3:05:06 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 2:52:09 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 10:39:31 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/3/2020 2:58 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 11:00:05 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
Hey Tom, maybe those craigslist sellers are just ready to
upgrade to Campagnolo:

https://bikerumor.com/2019/12/30/pat...gauge-patents/


I kind of think that they are worried that the industry is leaving them behind. Shimano Ultegra is killing them in the marketplace at the moment.


SRAM beats both for 2019 pro group volume worldwide.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Really? More Force gruppos than Ultegra? Hard to believe if I look around here.

Hard to believe having used Ultegra and SRAM Red. I don't like double tap. ETap is interesting without the wires, but I know nothing about it otherwise. The hydro levers are ugly, and I prefer dealing with mineral oil over DOT fluid anyway.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think I was just discussing this - Mineral oil has a rather high viscosity which makes it difficult to bleed properly. Dot brake fluid has a viscosity something like 80 times lower hence making it easier to bleed free of air. Rear brakes with the long tubing and fairly flat run are especially liable for spongy rear brakes.

Since Shimano supplies mineral oil that is what I would use since seals can be sensitive to different types of fluid.

DOT fluid would kill the seals in a Shimano system, so its not even an option. Mineral oil is not difficult to bleed or fill, at least for me -- and the problem most people have with Shimano rear discs is that they are too responsive, at least compared to cable actuated rim brakes or cable discs.

The benefit of DOT fluid is that it is cheap, but I don't like using paint-eating solvents, and I use a Shimano group, so I'm tied to mineral oil anyway. I have road discs and ride in a moderate climate, so fluid boiling points aren't that important to me -- to the extent that mineral oil and DOT fluid really differ that much. Compressibility of mineral oil versus DOT fluid also makes no difference because my current system is so responsive that any more braking would not be a good thing. If I'm sloppy with mineral oil, the only bad result is that I waste money. I don't lose paint or skin. That's the main reason I like mineral oil.


-- Jay Beattie.

Errr... be a bit shy about identifying a brake fluid simply as a "DOT
fluid" as there are 4 major types of "DOT" brake fluid. DOT 2 is a
caster oil based fluid, DOT 3 and 4 are glycol based while DOT 5 is
Silicone based. There is also a DOT 5.1 that is basically a glycol
based fluid for high temperature use,
--
cheers,

John B.

SRAM uses DOT 5.1

-- Jay Beattie

Interesting. The implication would seem to be that for some reason
SRAM brakes generate a lot of heat as the major difference in 5.1
fluid and DOT 4 is that it is designed for higher temperatures.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 1:59:05 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:

SRAM beats both for 2019 pro group volume worldwide.


Really? More Force gruppos than Ultegra? Hard to believe if I look around here.

Lou

Clarification- I may have misunderstood my SRAM management
source last week. SRAM sold more _electronic shift control_
groups than Shimano and way more than Campagnolo EPS.
--
Andrew Muzi


Campagnolo being in third place and not even in sight of the others is more than believable. But with electronic only, I find it hard to believe SRAM outsells Shimano. I have not looked at the recent or current catalogs, but does Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Giant even offer a SRAM electronic bike direct from the factory? I think those brands are the biggest bike sellers in the USA. Do any of them offer SRAM electronic? I am positive all of them offer Shimano electronic bikes.

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:17:23 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 1:59:05 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:

SRAM beats both for 2019 pro group volume worldwide.


Really? More Force gruppos than Ultegra? Hard to believe if I look around here.

Lou

Clarification- I may have misunderstood my SRAM management
source last week. SRAM sold more _electronic shift control_
groups than Shimano and way more than Campagnolo EPS.
--
Andrew Muzi


Campagnolo being in third place and not even in sight of the others is more than believable. But with electronic only, I find it hard to believe SRAM outsells Shimano. I have not looked at the recent or current catalogs, but does Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Giant even offer a SRAM electronic bike direct from the factory? I think those brands are the biggest bike sellers in the USA. Do any of them offer SRAM electronic? I am positive all of them offer Shimano electronic bikes.


Probably Andrews SRAM management source meant 'sold more wireless electronic shift control groups than Shimano and Campagnolo'. That I can agree with. I must say that more and more ready to go road bikes her in Europe are offered with SRAM eTap groups. First the reason for existence for SRAM was that their RED group was the lightest despite the clunky shifting in front and the idiot double tap thing (probably because of patents) now it is the wireless what is appealing for a lot of people for whatever reason.
My colleague got himself a Specialized Venge with Force eTap (hmm for that kind of money only a Force group?) and I asked him if he is not afraid that those little derailleurs batteries get stolen. He never thought of that but he doesn't let that expensive bike out of sight. I can understand that.

Lou

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 1:35:24 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:17:23 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 1:59:05 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:

SRAM beats both for 2019 pro group volume worldwide.


Really? More Force gruppos than Ultegra? Hard to believe if I look around here.

Lou

Clarification- I may have misunderstood my SRAM management
source last week. SRAM sold more _electronic shift control_
groups than Shimano and way more than Campagnolo EPS.
--
Andrew Muzi


Campagnolo being in third place and not even in sight of the others is more than believable. But with electronic only, I find it hard to believe SRAM outsells Shimano. I have not looked at the recent or current catalogs, but does Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Giant even offer a SRAM electronic bike direct from the factory? I think those brands are the biggest bike sellers in the USA. Do any of them offer SRAM electronic? I am positive all of them offer Shimano electronic bikes.


Probably Andrews SRAM management source meant 'sold more wireless electronic shift control groups than Shimano and Campagnolo'. That I can agree with. I must say that more and more ready to go road bikes her in Europe are offered with SRAM eTap groups. First the reason for existence for SRAM was that their RED group was the lightest despite the clunky shifting in front and the idiot double tap thing (probably because of patents) now it is the wireless what is appealing for a lot of people for whatever reason.
My colleague got himself a Specialized Venge with Force eTap (hmm for that kind of money only a Force group?) and I asked him if he is not afraid that those little derailleurs batteries get stolen. He never thought of that but he doesn't let that expensive bike out of sight. I can understand that.

Lou

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...47&FORM=V IRE

wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:17:23 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 1:59:05 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:

SRAM beats both for 2019 pro group volume worldwide.


Really? More Force gruppos than Ultegra? Hard to believe if I look around here.

Lou

Clarification- I may have misunderstood my SRAM management
source last week. SRAM sold more _electronic shift control_
groups than Shimano and way more than Campagnolo EPS.
--
Andrew Muzi


Campagnolo being in third place and not even in sight of the others is
more than believable. But with electronic only, I find it hard to
believe SRAM outsells Shimano. I have not looked at the recent or
current catalogs, but does Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Giant even
offer a SRAM electronic bike direct from the factory? I think those
brands are the biggest bike sellers in the USA. Do any of them offer
SRAM electronic? I am positive all of them offer Shimano electronic bikes.


Probably Andrews SRAM management source meant 'sold more wireless
electronic shift control groups than Shimano and Campagnolo'. That I can
agree with. I must say that more and more ready to go road bikes her in
Europe are offered with SRAM eTap groups. First the reason for existence
for SRAM was that their RED group was the lightest despite the clunky
shifting in front and the idiot double tap thing (probably because of
patents) now it is the wireless what is appealing for a lot of people for whatever reason.
My colleague got himself a Specialized Venge with Force eTap (hmm for
that kind of money only a Force group?) and I asked him if he is not
afraid that those little derailleurs batteries get stolen. He never
thought of that but he doesn't let that expensive bike out of sight. I can understand that.

Lou



My spec Tarmac Pro came with SRAM Force. I was surprised it wasn’t Red
since the Shimano versions have Dura Ace.

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 10:47:01 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 1:35:24 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:17:23 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 1:59:05 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:

SRAM beats both for 2019 pro group volume worldwide.


Really? More Force gruppos than Ultegra? Hard to believe if I look around here.

Lou

Clarification- I may have misunderstood my SRAM management
source last week. SRAM sold more _electronic shift control_
groups than Shimano and way more than Campagnolo EPS.
--
Andrew Muzi


Campagnolo being in third place and not even in sight of the others is more than believable. But with electronic only, I find it hard to believe SRAM outsells Shimano. I have not looked at the recent or current catalogs, but does Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Giant even offer a SRAM electronic bike direct from the factory? I think those brands are the biggest bike sellers in the USA. Do any of them offer SRAM electronic? I am positive all of them offer Shimano electronic bikes.


Probably Andrews SRAM management source meant 'sold more wireless electronic shift control groups than Shimano and Campagnolo'. That I can agree with. I must say that more and more ready to go road bikes her in Europe are offered with SRAM eTap groups. First the reason for existence for SRAM was that their RED group was the lightest despite the clunky shifting in front and the idiot double tap thing (probably because of patents) now it is the wireless what is appealing for a lot of people for whatever reason.
My colleague got himself a Specialized Venge with Force eTap (hmm for that kind of money only a Force group?) and I asked him if he is not afraid that those little derailleurs batteries get stolen. He never thought of that but he doesn't let that expensive bike out of sight. I can understand that.