Shimano Hollowtech lateral play

On 04/01/2020 22.51, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 1:27:23 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 4/1/20 11:09 pm, wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 3:04:21 AM UTC+1, jbeattie
wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 5:27:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On a ride today on my gravel bike that came with Shimano
gears, I noticed movement in the BB area when I rode in much
higher than normal gears up a 10% grade. When I got home I
investigated and found that I can move the BB axle
approximately 1 millimetre laterally. Having just watched a
video where a fellow removes the cranks and BB axle from a
bike, I am left wondering what controls lateral play?

Now having watched another video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3-c8tS12Ko I wonder, do I
have to buy some special shims and another special tool to
adjust the bearing preload?

(I've not had any prior experience with this Shimano BB, and
a similar problem doesn't exist for me with Campagnolo UT BBs
that also employ outboard bearings.)

You adjust preload by tighten the retaining cap ("fixing
bolt"). Loosen the pinch bolts and tighten down the retaining
cap. You can look up the torque setting, but I just do it by
feel, avoiding end loading and binding the BB bearings. Lou
just uses a full beer can as a counter weight, IIRC. If you
tighten it down all the way, and there is still play -- then
you need some shims, which are readily available. FYI, be
diligent with the torque setting on the pinch bolts, and
tighten them alternately. It is possible for them to (1) strip
if over-tightened, and (2) come loose if under-tightened.

How are the koalas doing? Any left? Save the koalas!



+1. The preload cap should not be bottoming out on the axle but
on the left crank arm. You can easily see this if you remove the
preload cap (first loosen the pinch bolts). The axle should not
be flush with the surface of the crank arm. I had a photo of it
but I couldn't find it. Somewhere in my digital black hole. The
torque spec is 2 Nm which is very low for a torque wrench hence
my use of a filled 650 ml waterbottle as a counter weight. Make
sure al threads are clean and lubed before torquing otherwise you
just overcoming friction. Strange that you didn't notice this
earlier.


Thanks Lou. Strange that I didn't notice the movement? I think
there was enough friction (maybe oxidation?) to hold it in a
position for normal riding. It requires some effort to push the
axle left and right.

-- JS

My $.02 USD: On a new crank, you can have a very tight fit between
the spindle and bearings, which is even worse if the BB shell faces
are not parallel.
https://www.parktool.com/assets/img/...igure_7-15.jpg
During the original install, the crank may have been popped into the
bearings but not completely seated on the right side because of the
tight fit. Getting the preload cap tight would not exert enough force
to seat the crank, and the crank would not rock if tested. Then you
ride on that for a while, and the spindle wears and play develops --
and the crank can seat against the right bearing. The only other
explanation is loose pinch bolts and the crank arm walking out, but
that would also push out the preload cap, which can happen. A
Hollowtech crank arm can fall off.

Did I mention why I don't like Hollowtech?

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 8:20:36 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 1/4/2020 2:51 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 1:27:23 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 4/1/20 11:09 pm, wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 3:04:21 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 5:27:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On a ride today on my gravel bike that came with Shimano gears,
I noticed movement in the BB area when I rode in much higher than
normal gears up a 10% grade. When I got home I investigated and
found that I can move the BB axle approximately 1 millimetre
laterally. Having just watched a video where a fellow removes
the cranks and BB axle from a bike, I am left wondering what
controls lateral play?

Now having watched another video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3-c8tS12Ko I wonder, do I have
to buy some special shims and another special tool to adjust the
bearing preload?

(I've not had any prior experience with this Shimano BB, and a
similar problem doesn't exist for me with Campagnolo UT BBs that
also employ outboard bearings.)

You adjust preload by tighten the retaining cap ("fixing bolt").
Loosen the pinch bolts and tighten down the retaining cap. You can
look up the torque setting, but I just do it by feel, avoiding end
loading and binding the BB bearings. Lou just uses a full beer can
as a counter weight, IIRC. If you tighten it down all the way, and
there is still play -- then you need some shims, which are readily
available. FYI, be diligent with the torque setting on the pinch
bolts, and tighten them alternately. It is possible for them to
(1) strip if over-tightened, and (2) come loose if
under-tightened.

How are the koalas doing? Any left? Save the koalas!



+1. The preload cap should not be bottoming out on the axle but on
the left crank arm. You can easily see this if you remove the preload
cap (first loosen the pinch bolts). The axle should not be flush with
the surface of the crank arm. I had a photo of it but I couldn't find
it. Somewhere in my digital black hole. The torque spec is 2 Nm which
is very low for a torque wrench hence my use of a filled 650 ml
waterbottle as a counter weight. Make sure al threads are clean and
lubed before torquing otherwise you just overcoming friction. Strange
that you didn't notice this earlier.


Thanks Lou. Strange that I didn't notice the movement? I think there
was enough friction (maybe oxidation?) to hold it in a position for
normal riding. It requires some effort to push the axle left and right.

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:13:12 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 04/01/2020 22.51, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 1:27:23 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 4/1/20 11:09 pm, wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 3:04:21 AM UTC+1, jbeattie
wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 5:27:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On a ride today on my gravel bike that came with Shimano
gears, I noticed movement in the BB area when I rode in much
higher than normal gears up a 10% grade. When I got home I
investigated and found that I can move the BB axle
approximately 1 millimetre laterally. Having just watched a
video where a fellow removes the cranks and BB axle from a
bike, I am left wondering what controls lateral play?

Now having watched another video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3-c8tS12Ko I wonder, do I
have to buy some special shims and another special tool to
adjust the bearing preload?

(I've not had any prior experience with this Shimano BB, and
a similar problem doesn't exist for me with Campagnolo UT BBs
that also employ outboard bearings.)

You adjust preload by tighten the retaining cap ("fixing
bolt"). Loosen the pinch bolts and tighten down the retaining
cap. You can look up the torque setting, but I just do it by
feel, avoiding end loading and binding the BB bearings. Lou
just uses a full beer can as a counter weight, IIRC. If you
tighten it down all the way, and there is still play -- then
you need some shims, which are readily available. FYI, be
diligent with the torque setting on the pinch bolts, and
tighten them alternately. It is possible for them to (1) strip
if over-tightened, and (2) come loose if under-tightened.

How are the koalas doing? Any left? Save the koalas!



+1. The preload cap should not be bottoming out on the axle but
on the left crank arm. You can easily see this if you remove the
preload cap (first loosen the pinch bolts). The axle should not
be flush with the surface of the crank arm. I had a photo of it
but I couldn't find it. Somewhere in my digital black hole. The
torque spec is 2 Nm which is very low for a torque wrench hence
my use of a filled 650 ml waterbottle as a counter weight. Make
sure al threads are clean and lubed before torquing otherwise you
just overcoming friction. Strange that you didn't notice this
earlier.


Thanks Lou. Strange that I didn't notice the movement? I think
there was enough friction (maybe oxidation?) to hold it in a
position for normal riding. It requires some effort to push the
axle left and right.

-- JS

My $.02 USD: On a new crank, you can have a very tight fit between
the spindle and bearings, which is even worse if the BB shell faces
are not parallel.
https://www.parktool.com/assets/img/...igure_7-15.jpg
During the original install, the crank may have been popped into the
bearings but not completely seated on the right side because of the
tight fit. Getting the preload cap tight would not exert enough force
to seat the crank, and the crank would not rock if tested. Then you
ride on that for a while, and the spindle wears and play develops --
and the crank can seat against the right bearing. The only other
explanation is loose pinch bolts and the crank arm walking out, but
that would also push out the preload cap, which can happen. A
Hollowtech crank arm can fall off.

Did I mention why I don't like Hollowtech?

Because it can have a problem something like 2% of the times that SRM does? Because it is half the price of Campy? Because 99% of the time they are spectacularly great, shift nearly perfect and wear a long time?

On 6/1/20 5:44 am, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:13:12 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:


Did I mention why I don't like Hollowtech?

Because it can have a problem something like 2% of the times that SRM
does? Because it is half the price of Campy? Because 99% of the time
they are spectacularly great, shift nearly perfect and wear a long
time?


Half the price of Campagnolo? I just googled for prices for Shimano
Ultegra and Campagnolo Centaur cranks, and what do you know the Centaur
crankset is cheaper.

$218 vs $227

https://www.wiggle.com.au/campagnolo-centaur-ultra-torque-11-speed-chainset/

https://www.wiggle.com.au/shimano-ultegra-r8000-double-11-speed-chainset-au/


And the Centaur crankset uses the UltraTorque design, which in my
opinion is superior.

--
JS

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:36:13 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 6/1/20 5:44 am, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:13:12 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:


Did I mention why I don't like Hollowtech?

Because it can have a problem something like 2% of the times that SRM
does? Because it is half the price of Campy? Because 99% of the time
they are spectacularly great, shift nearly perfect and wear a long
time?


Half the price of Campagnolo? I just googled for prices for Shimano
Ultegra and Campagnolo Centaur cranks, and what do you know the Centaur
crankset is cheaper.

$218 vs $227

https://www.wiggle.com.au/campagnolo-centaur-ultra-torque-11-speed-chainset/

https://www.wiggle.com.au/shimano-ultegra-r8000-double-11-speed-chainset-au/


And the Centaur crankset uses the UltraTorque design, which in my
opinion is superior.

--
JS

Without weighing in on which is superior, the Shimano is no longer available at Wiggle because Shimano cracked-down on Wiggle and ProBikeKit and others for discounting. It's a damned shame because they had some smoking good deals. Another possible reason for going with Campagnolo (I haven't checked this out, though) is chainring replacement cost. A 6800 50t chanring cost more than I paid for a 105 crankset from PBK back before the Shimano shut-down. ridiculously expensive for the four hidden bolt rings.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 05/01/2020 19:44, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:13:12 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 04/01/2020 22.51, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 1:27:23 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 4/1/20 11:09 pm, wrote:
On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 3:04:21 AM UTC+1, jbeattie
wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 5:27:35 PM UTC-8, James
wrote:
On a ride today on my gravel bike that came with Shimano
gears, I noticed movement in the BB area when I rode in
much higher than normal gears up a 10% grade. When I got
home I investigated and found that I can move the BB
axle approximately 1 millimetre laterally. Having just
watched a video where a fellow removes the cranks and BB
axle from a bike, I am left wondering what controls
lateral play?

Now having watched another video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3-c8tS12Ko I wonder,
do I have to buy some special shims and another special
tool to adjust the bearing preload?

(I've not had any prior experience with this Shimano BB,
and a similar problem doesn't exist for me with
Campagnolo UT BBs that also employ outboard bearings.)

You adjust preload by tighten the retaining cap ("fixing
bolt"). Loosen the pinch bolts and tighten down the
retaining cap. You can look up the torque setting, but I
just do it by feel, avoiding end loading and binding the BB
bearings. Lou just uses a full beer can as a counter
weight, IIRC. If you tighten it down all the way, and there
is still play -- then you need some shims, which are
readily available. FYI, be diligent with the torque
setting on the pinch bolts, and tighten them alternately.
It is possible for them to (1) strip if over-tightened, and
(2) come loose if under-tightened.

How are the koalas doing? Any left? Save the koalas!



+1. The preload cap should not be bottoming out on the axle
but on the left crank arm. You can easily see this if you
remove the preload cap (first loosen the pinch bolts). The
axle should not be flush with the surface of the crank arm. I
had a photo of it but I couldn't find it. Somewhere in my
digital black hole. The torque spec is 2 Nm which is very low
for a torque wrench hence my use of a filled 650 ml
waterbottle as a counter weight. Make sure al threads are
clean and lubed before torquing otherwise you just overcoming
friction. Strange that you didn't notice this earlier.


Thanks Lou. Strange that I didn't notice the movement? I
think there was enough friction (maybe oxidation?) to hold it
in a position for normal riding. It requires some effort to
push the axle left and right.

-- JS

My $.02 USD: On a new crank, you can have a very tight fit
between the spindle and bearings, which is even worse if the BB
shell faces are not parallel.
https://www.parktool.com/assets/img/...igure_7-15.jpg
During the original install, the crank may have been popped into
the bearings but not completely seated on the right side because
of the tight fit. Getting the preload cap tight would not exert
enough force to seat the crank, and the crank would not rock if
tested. Then you ride on that for a while, and the spindle wears
and play develops -- and the crank can seat against the right
bearing. The only other explanation is loose pinch bolts and the
crank arm walking out, but that would also push out the preload
cap, which can happen. A Hollowtech crank arm can fall off.

Did I mention why I don't like Hollowtech?

Because it can have a problem something like 2% of the times that SRM
does? Because it is half the price of Campy? Because 99% of the time
they are spectacularly great, shift nearly perfect and wear a long
time?

Give me a cartridge BB any day of the week. Fit in 15 minutes, last 15
years. If I worried about a few grams I'd take a **** before riding off :-)

On 6/1/20 5:10 pm, Tosspot wrote:

Give me a cartridge BB any day of the week.Â* Fit in 15 minutes, last 15
years.Â* If I worried about a few grams I'd take a **** before riding off
:-)

I tried quite a number of cartridge BBs from Shimano and Campagnolo
(square taper variety), and I couldn't get more than a year out of them.

The newer BBs with outboard bearings like Campagnolo Ultra Torque last
me many years without issue.

YMOV

--
JS

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:36:13 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 6/1/20 5:44 am, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:13:12 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:


Did I mention why I don't like Hollowtech?

Because it can have a problem something like 2% of the times that SRM
does? Because it is half the price of Campy? Because 99% of the time
they are spectacularly great, shift nearly perfect and wear a long
time?


Half the price of Campagnolo? I just googled for prices for Shimano
Ultegra and Campagnolo Centaur cranks, and what do you know the Centaur
crankset is cheaper.

$218 vs $227

https://www.wiggle.com.au/campagnolo-centaur-ultra-torque-11-speed-chainset/

https://www.wiggle.com.au/shimano-ultegra-r8000-double-11-speed-chainset-au/


And the Centaur crankset uses the UltraTorque design, which in my
opinion is superior.

--
JS

Exactly what is that supposed to be? Is there some reason that you prefer to make things up as you go? Ultegra is the same level as Campy Chorus and as I said, it is about half the price.

I'm not even certain that Campy makes Centaur anymore but if they did it would be the equivalent of 105.

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 4:31:01 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:36:13 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 6/1/20 5:44 am, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:13:12 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:


Did I mention why I don't like Hollowtech?

Because it can have a problem something like 2% of the times that SRM
does? Because it is half the price of Campy? Because 99% of the time
they are spectacularly great, shift nearly perfect and wear a long
time?


Half the price of Campagnolo? I just googled for prices for Shimano
Ultegra and Campagnolo Centaur cranks, and what do you know the Centaur
crankset is cheaper.

$218 vs $227

https://www.wiggle.com.au/campagnolo-centaur-ultra-torque-11-speed-chainset/

https://www.wiggle.com.au/shimano-ultegra-r8000-double-11-speed-chainset-au/


And the Centaur crankset uses the UltraTorque design, which in my
opinion is superior.

--
JS

Exactly what is that supposed to be? Is there some reason that you prefer to make things up as you go? Ultegra is the same level as Campy Chorus and as I said, it is about half the price.

I'm not even certain that Campy makes Centaur anymore but if they did it would be the equivalent of 105.

Chorus is considered to be between Dura Ace and Ultegra. Chorus 12 speed mechanical is here 1015 euro and Ultegra mechanical 11 speed is 690 euro; a 325 euro difference. With Chorus you get a gear extra and a much nicer and more durable finish of the components. They both work flawless but the flimsy surface finish of the Ultegra and also the Dura Ace components always bugged me. The smallest rub against the cranks, RD, brake levers already scratches the surface finish of the Ultegra/DA components.

Lou

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 9:39:57 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 4:31:01 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:36:13 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 6/1/20 5:44 am, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:13:12 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:


Did I mention why I don't like Hollowtech?

Because it can have a problem something like 2% of the times that SRM
does? Because it is half the price of Campy? Because 99% of the time
they are spectacularly great, shift nearly perfect and wear a long
time?


Half the price of Campagnolo? I just googled for prices for Shimano
Ultegra and Campagnolo Centaur cranks, and what do you know the Centaur
crankset is cheaper.

$218 vs $227

https://www.wiggle.com.au/campagnolo-centaur-ultra-torque-11-speed-chainset/

https://www.wiggle.com.au/shimano-ultegra-r8000-double-11-speed-chainset-au/


And the Centaur crankset uses the UltraTorque design, which in my
opinion is superior.

--
JS

Exactly what is that supposed to be? Is there some reason that you prefer to make things up as you go? Ultegra is the same level as Campy Chorus and as I said, it is about half the price.

I'm not even certain that Campy makes Centaur anymore but if they did it would be the equivalent of 105.

Chorus is considered to be between Dura Ace and Ultegra. Chorus 12 speed mechanical is here 1015 euro and Ultegra mechanical 11 speed is 690 euro; a 325 euro difference. With Chorus you get a gear extra and a much nicer and more durable finish of the components. They both work flawless but the flimsy surface finish of the Ultegra and also the Dura Ace components always bugged me. The smallest rub against the cranks, RD, brake levers already scratches the surface finish of the Ultegra/DA components.

Lou

Considered by whom? They are both second level group sets from their corresponding manufacturers. That Campy do not use such a steep drop in construction techniques doesn't change that.