#41
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Chain waxing
On 09/06/18 00:59, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote: I know some people who boil their chains in wax and reported good results but it's a major chore. Such reports also have to be taken with a grain of salt because not everyone rides on pristine asphalt. Some of us ride singletrack where the front wheel generates a plume of dust and the chain is right in the middle of that. I think James uses wax and I doubt that he rides only on pristine asphalt.Â* Why do you care what other people do to clean their chains? I only care about truth and reality. Yes I take gravel roads sometimes. Sometimes there is cow **** on the roads around here too. Green mush gets flicked around. No I don't find maintaining my bike every 1000+km a chore. That's 5-6 weeks between a wash'n'wax! Last week I even stripped the jockey wheels off the rear derailleur and cleaned and lubed the bearings. Haven't done that for a while. -- JS |
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#42
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Chain waxing
On 6/8/2018 7:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote: On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote: snip I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental toothbrushes. My wive found a brand at Costco that is more rigid than the usual ones so the job goes faster now. First used for my teeth, then later some day for a chain. Afterwards scrubbing with an old regular toothbrush, followed by a good wipe-down with Kleenex. Once the chain is really shiny I apply White Lightning Epic Ride. If you shake the bottle well the waxy stuff in it dissolves and thus gets onto the chain as well. I use a Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links, then gently wipe off any excess with a Kleenex. That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi between cleanings depending on whether I ride more roads or more bike paths. Gets dirtier on roads. 40-50mi on the MTB, mostly on dirt trails. The upside is that this method does not require me to take the chain off the bike which I would really dread. OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on chain maintenance?! Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other brand). Fill it with kerosene and run the chain through it. Repeat with clean solvent until the chain runs clean. Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you won't get it clean on the inside. When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain lube. So how long does that process take? And I mean with clean-up including the cleaning of the tools used. For most of those of us who are married clean-up is necessary, we can just leave the stuff sitting on some bench. About five minutes to set it up, five minutes per chain, five minutes clean-up. I'll do multiple bikes. It's all about doing it so you don't get solvent everywhere. I have one of those big rectangular metal drip trays to catch any solvent that gets splashed out. Definitely I have found all the things that the experts say about chain cleaning to be accurate. As Sheldon Brown writes, "The on-the-bike system has the advantage that the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers. This scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards." When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles. "Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author of The Bicycle Wheel "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III. "Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or grease." Sheldon Brown |
#43
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Chain waxing
On 6/8/2018 5:19 PM, James wrote:
On 08/06/18 03:18, Theodore Heise wrote: Jay makes a great point.Â* If I rode in the rain a lot (or even much), I probably would not be using wax. I recently rode a one week supported tour over 800km with two wet days. I didn't bother re-applying my wax/oil lube for another few hundred kms after I got back home.Â* No squeaks or dry chain sound. And IME when a waxed chain begins making the first tiny squeaks, the squeaks sometimes go away for a while. I've wondered if changes in humidity have some effect. The noise will gradually grow worse, of course, but it's mostly an aesthetic problem; it sounds ugly, but it really doesn't decrease efficiency. For me, the tolerable level of noise varies by bike. On the utility bike, I'm willing to listen much longer before getting out the wax and torch. On a bike I'll ride with close friends, I'll put up with just a little noise. On a bike I'll ride with more club members, I'll re-wax after the ride that makes the first tiny squeaks, because I don't want to ruin their aesthetic experience. I suppose there may be a difference in shifting performance, but: A) I still use friction shifting on most bikes, so I'm probably auto-compensating; and B) Shifting a few milliseconds late doesn't bother me a bit. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#44
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Chain waxing
On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 7:23:19 AM UTC+1, ERSHC wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 22:13:38 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote: On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 3:50:29 AM UTC+1, ERSHC wrote: On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:18:36 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise wrote: On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 08:21:52 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: ... On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 07:44:01 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote: Seems to me chain cleaning and waxing is another sadomasochistic practice that cyclists without the imagination to do something more productive have brought on themselves. Of course, if chain cleaning and waxing defines who you are, like going to church on Sundays, don't pay any attention to me; I wouldn't dream of criticizing your religion. Seriously, it's a very simple process, and less work than cleaning and relubing a chain. I'm not advocating it as suitable for anyone else, just desribing how it works for me. If that warrants chastising, I have to wonder who are the real religious zealots. Really simple, and something I do ONCE in the chain's life. Hot wax bath, then on to the bike. 3000 miles and .25% elongation later, it's into the thrash and a new $12.50 chain (currently SRAM PC850s) gets installed. Cheap and easy. And I ride in the rain and snow as well as good weather in NYC. The best internally geared hubs don't have the efficiency of a dirty chain on derailure cogs. You might want to check your facts on that one before you express the same fallacy in a less forgiving venue. Point me to something reasonably unbiased and more recent than the 2001 Cycling Science article that supports this, and I'll be glad to change my opinion. But not my gear train. Like chain waxing, it works for me, and that is really what I care about. It's not important enough to me to go looking for the data. I'm not trying to persuade you to change, merely pointing out that what on RBT is a small eccentricity in the wider world will be considered a weird obsession, and prevent you mating with the woman of your dreams. Andre Jute Consequences |
#45
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Chain waxing
On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 6:39:03 AM UTC+1, Tosspot wrote:
On 07/06/18 21:40, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-07 12:15, Tosspot wrote: On 07/06/18 07:13, Andre Jute wrote: On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 3:50:29 AM UTC+1, ERSHC wrote: [...] I'm much too lazy to waste energy on internal gears or on oiling a chain every 100 miles. Now that's the sort of cyclist I like hearing about. Though I don't quite see how an IGH would "waste" your energy. A Rohloff, for instance, has 14 evenly spaced gears, a fat range, and an instant change, through several gears in an instant, if you wish. Oh, and the Rohloff is definitely more efficient than a dirty chain and derailleur, according to reliable German tests. Me, I'd keep my dérailleur clean and solve that problem.Â* Save some weight as well. And a TON of money. Yep. IHGs are a bit of a niche market. 4 of my current bikes have them, one has a derailleur. That Derailleur is dry miles only and is a good solution. The others are rain, ice, snow, salt & grit. IHG are a better solution. I've tried the Hebie chain gliders as well, and haven't been so impressed with them, but if you have IHGs, a good chain case is really a must or you lose some of the advantages. I have two Rohloffs. Are they worth it, not compared to an Alfine-11 imho, but, they are very, very nice. In red of course, cos that goes faster :-) I trashed two 8-speed Nexus Premium IHG before 3000m, and my Rohloff has lasted ten years, so I think it is worth the money. Also, I suspect that if I electrified the Nexus gearboxes, I'd trash them well before 3000m. The Rohloff just shrugs off anything and everything. An indefinite lifespan seems a bargain to me, whatever it costs. Andre Jute Economist, not a sophistry |
#46
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Chain waxing
On 2018-06-08 10:06, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 9:17:37 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-08 07:59, Duane wrote: On 08/06/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote: On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote: snip I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental toothbrushes. My wive found a brand at Costco that is more rigid than the usual ones so the job goes faster now. First used for my teeth, then later some day for a chain. Afterwards scrubbing with an old regular toothbrush, followed by a good wipe-down with Kleenex. Once the chain is really shiny I apply White Lightning Epic Ride. If you shake the bottle well the waxy stuff in it dissolves and thus gets onto the chain as well. I use a Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links, then gently wipe off any excess with a Kleenex. That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi between cleanings depending on whether I ride more roads or more bike paths. Gets dirtier on roads. 40-50mi on the MTB, mostly on dirt trails. The upside is that this method does not require me to take the chain off the bike which I would really dread. OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on chain maintenance?! Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other brand). Fill it with kerosene and run the chain through it. Repeat with clean solvent until the chain runs clean. Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you won't get it clean on the inside. When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain lube. So how long does that process take? And I mean with clean-up including the cleaning of the tools used. For most of those of us who are married clean-up is necessary, we can just leave the stuff sitting on some bench. The bike is already on the stand for washing. Last time I washed my road bike was ... ahm ... nineteen-sumpthin. The MTB doesn't get washed either, it just wouldn't make sense. ... I have a pan in my shed with a bottle of degreaser (not kerosene but something biodegradable) and the Park chain cleaner in the pan. Takes a few minutes to fill up the tool and run the chain through it. The pan catches the slosh. I don't usually change the degreaser. A couple minutes in the chain cleaner works well enough for me. Hose out everything and let it dry while the bike is drying. Certainly takes less time than what you describe with the toothbrushes. Well, yeah, if you just put the bath, the pan and so on back on the shelf as is. Not gonna happen here. What? No shelves? You can buy shelves at Home Depot you know. Is it about your wife? Does she check your wash buckets to make sure they're clean inside with no biodegradable solvent-filled chain cleaning machines in them? Yes :-) ... Mine too! See? ... She was up at like 2:00 AM this morning going through all my buckets in the garage . . . totally ****ed off at the condition of some of my bike cleaning brushes. So I asked her about the dust under the refrigerator . . . "have you seen that . . . have you? How could any self-respecting wife allow that disgusting accumulation? And your hair in the drain! It's like stringy snot! I want a divorce!" When making bacon and eggs this morning I mentioned a li'l grease spot on the range from yesterday. When I came home late from a fun MTB ride and she still made a very nice dinner. That didn't go over very well :-) Most women are neat freaks while most men would become real slobs if they weren't married to them. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#47
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Chain waxing
On 2018-06-08 10:30, Duane wrote:
On 08/06/2018 12:17 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-08 07:59, Duane wrote: On 08/06/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote: On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote: snip I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental toothbrushes. My wive found a brand at Costco that is more rigid than the usual ones so the job goes faster now. First used for my teeth, then later some day for a chain. Afterwards scrubbing with an old regular toothbrush, followed by a good wipe-down with Kleenex. Once the chain is really shiny I apply White Lightning Epic Ride. If you shake the bottle well the waxy stuff in it dissolves and thus gets onto the chain as well. I use a Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links, then gently wipe off any excess with a Kleenex. That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi between cleanings depending on whether I ride more roads or more bike paths. Gets dirtier on roads. 40-50mi on the MTB, mostly on dirt trails. The upside is that this method does not require me to take the chain off the bike which I would really dread. OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on chain maintenance?! Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other brand). Fill it with kerosene and run the chain through it. Repeat with clean solvent until the chain runs clean. Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you won't get it clean on the inside. When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain lube. So how long does that process take? And I mean with clean-up including the cleaning of the tools used. For most of those of us who are married clean-up is necessary, we can just leave the stuff sitting on some bench. The bike is already on the stand for washing. Last time I washed my road bike was ... ahm ... nineteen-sumpthin. The MTB doesn't get washed either, it just wouldn't make sense. The problems you have with equipment failure start to make sense... The BB would not have failed if I had hit it with the pressure washer after every ride. Yeah, right. ... I have a pan in my shed with a bottle of degreaser (not kerosene but something biodegradable) and the Park chain cleaner in the pan. Takes a few minutes to fill up the tool and run the chain through it. The pan catches the slosh. I don't usually change the degreaser. A couple minutes in the chain cleaner works well enough for me. Hose out everything and let it dry while the bike is drying. Certainly takes less time than what you describe with the toothbrushes. Well, yeah, if you just put the bath, the pan and so on back on the shelf as is. Not gonna happen here. You missed the part about hose everything down and let it dry with the bike. Cleanup doesn't take any time. Hose down the bath container? That would get you into trouble with environmental watchdogs some day. ... Not that I care much how you clean your chain. Just answering your question. Above all, avoid hot wax. http://nordicgroup.us/chain/ I know some people who boil their chains in wax and reported good results but it's a major chore. Such reports also have to be taken with a grain of salt because not everyone rides on pristine asphalt. Some of us ride singletrack where the front wheel generates a plume of dust and the chain is right in the middle of that. I think James uses wax and I doubt that he rides only on pristine asphalt. Why do you care what other people do to clean their chains? Never said I did. You sure write a lot about it then... Only about how I clean mine. It works. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#48
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Chain waxing
On 2018-06-08 17:52, sms wrote:
On 6/8/2018 7:36 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote: On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote: snip I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental toothbrushes. My wive found a brand at Costco that is more rigid than the usual ones so the job goes faster now. First used for my teeth, then later some day for a chain. Afterwards scrubbing with an old regular toothbrush, followed by a good wipe-down with Kleenex. Once the chain is really shiny I apply White Lightning Epic Ride. If you shake the bottle well the waxy stuff in it dissolves and thus gets onto the chain as well. I use a Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links, then gently wipe off any excess with a Kleenex. That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi between cleanings depending on whether I ride more roads or more bike paths. Gets dirtier on roads. 40-50mi on the MTB, mostly on dirt trails. The upside is that this method does not require me to take the chain off the bike which I would really dread. OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on chain maintenance?! Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other brand). Fill it with kerosene and run the chain through it. Repeat with clean solvent until the chain runs clean. Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you won't get it clean on the inside. When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain lube. So how long does that process take? And I mean with clean-up including the cleaning of the tools used. For most of those of us who are married clean-up is necessary, we can just leave the stuff sitting on some bench. About five minutes to set it up, five minutes per chain, five minutes clean-up. I'll do multiple bikes. It's all about doing it so you don't get solvent everywhere. I have one of those big rectangular metal drip trays to catch any solvent that gets splashed out. But then you also have to clean the drip tray. I guess yesterday's newspaper would also do. Definitely I have found all the things that the experts say about chain cleaning to be accurate. As Sheldon Brown writes, "The on-the-bike system has the advantage that the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the rollers. This scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards." The flexing makes sense. Maybe I should try that. The guy I rode with yesterday mentioned a Park Tool bath he uses. When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles. "Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author of The Bicycle Wheel Jobst was a good expert. Except on water intake, I believe. "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III. "Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or grease." Sheldon Brown Wax isn't a good lubricant but most good wax oils like mine are a mix of synthetic oil and wax. Has to be mixed up before each application by vigorously shaking the bottle. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#49
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Chain waxing
On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 8:04:24 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-08 10:06, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 9:17:37 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-08 07:59, Duane wrote: On 08/06/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-06-07 17:02, sms wrote: On 6/6/2018 7:35 AM, Joerg wrote: snip I clean my chain thoroughly using interdental toothbrushes. My wive found a brand at Costco that is more rigid than the usual ones so the job goes faster now. First used for my teeth, then later some day for a chain. Afterwards scrubbing with an old regular toothbrush, followed by a good wipe-down with Kleenex. Once the chain is really shiny I apply White Lightning Epic Ride. If you shake the bottle well the waxy stuff in it dissolves and thus gets onto the chain as well. I use a Q-Tip to dab it onlto the links, then gently wipe off any excess with a Kleenex. That way a road bike chain can run 150-250mi between cleanings depending on whether I ride more roads or more bike paths. Gets dirtier on roads. 40-50mi on the MTB, mostly on dirt trails. The upside is that this method does not require me to take the chain off the bike which I would really dread. OMG, is anyone really spending that much time on chain maintenance?! Get yourself a Park chain cleaner (or some other brand). Fill it with kerosene and run the chain through it. Repeat with clean solvent until the chain runs clean. Unless the chain is in the solvent, and moving, you won't get it clean on the inside. When it's clean, lubricate it with a foaming chain lube. So how long does that process take? And I mean with clean-up including the cleaning of the tools used. For most of those of us who are married clean-up is necessary, we can just leave the stuff sitting on some bench. The bike is already on the stand for washing. Last time I washed my road bike was ... ahm ... nineteen-sumpthin. The MTB doesn't get washed either, it just wouldn't make sense. ... I have a pan in my shed with a bottle of degreaser (not kerosene but something biodegradable) and the Park chain cleaner in the pan. Takes a few minutes to fill up the tool and run the chain through it. The pan catches the slosh. I don't usually change the degreaser. A couple minutes in the chain cleaner works well enough for me. Hose out everything and let it dry while the bike is drying. Certainly takes less time than what you describe with the toothbrushes. Well, yeah, if you just put the bath, the pan and so on back on the shelf as is. Not gonna happen here. What? No shelves? You can buy shelves at Home Depot you know. Is it about your wife? Does she check your wash buckets to make sure they're clean inside with no biodegradable solvent-filled chain cleaning machines in them? Yes :-) ... Mine too! See? ... She was up at like 2:00 AM this morning going through all my buckets in the garage . . . totally ****ed off at the condition of some of my bike cleaning brushes. So I asked her about the dust under the refrigerator . . . "have you seen that . . . have you? How could any self-respecting wife allow that disgusting accumulation? And your hair in the drain! It's like stringy snot! I want a divorce!" When making bacon and eggs this morning I mentioned a li'l grease spot on the range from yesterday. When I came home late from a fun MTB ride and she still made a very nice dinner. That didn't go over very well :-) Most women are neat freaks while most men would become real slobs if they weren't married to them. Have you seen Lou's garage? You could do surgery on the floor without fear of infection. My wife has been very patient with the mess I made in the family room downstairs. I've been watching movies and doing heavy bike maintenance for the fleet which doubled when my son moved in after his injury. I just got back from Universal where I bought a liter of Shimano mineral oil for the hydraulic brakes. It was $4 more than buying 50ml from Bike Gallery. Incroyable -- $17.99 for 50ml. Even from Western, it's $12.75 for 50ml.. You can get 1,000ml for anywhere from $18-22 low street price. I didn't even bother price matching at Universal and paid $22. I'll never use all that mineral oil, but I couldn't bear spending so much for 50ml. Maybe I'll sell the left overs on the disk brake black market. By the way, I tried to buy $9 worth of hydraulic mineral oil made by Finish Line, and the guys at Bike Gallery (who I really like and have been good to me), basically swatted my hand away, saying that Shimano was the only way to go. I think either (1) Shimano has everyone cowed, or (2) Finish Line needs better PR. I think Shimano actually claims that the warranty on the hydraulic discs is voided if you use non-Shimano magical oil. -- Jay Beattie. |
#50
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Chain waxing
jbeattie wrote:
:I just got back from Universal where I bought a liter of Shimano mineral il for the hydraulic brakes. It was $4 more than buying 50ml from :Bike Gallery. Incroyable -- $17.99 for 50ml. Even from Western, it's :$12.75 for 50ml. You can get 1,000ml for anywhere from $18-22 low street rice. I didn't even bother price matching at Universal and paid $22. :I'll never use all that mineral oil, but I couldn't bear spending so much :for 50ml. Maybe I'll sell the left overs on the disk brake black market. It's not going to go bad. I find it infuriating that no one sells mineral oil in quanties other than 50ml or 1000ml. -- sig 42 |
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