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#21
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"Thanks for Lights"
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 18:19:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 11/6/2019 6:08 PM, John B. wrote: On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:02:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/6/2019 12:49 PM, sms wrote: On 11/5/2019 2:31 PM, John B. wrote: snip Years ago I read an article describing what the author envisioned as the acceptable electric car. About the size of a VW Bug and with a range of 75 miles. Than he calculated the effects of everyone driving home from work and plugging in the car. Los Angeles, where he lived, would have to double the electric generating capability to handle the surge in requirements. On my street there are a lot of electric cars and plug-in hybrids. And every house with one of those vehicles also has solar panels on the roof generating far more electricity, even in the winter, to feed onto the grid to charge an electric car. In the winter the panels don't meet the entire need of the house, in the summer they exceed the entire need. So things have changed since you read that article years ago. Of course in high-density housing you can't have enough solar panels for the building to be self-sustaining, and surprisingly high-density housing uses more electricity and gas, on a per occupant basis, than a single family home. In a single family home you can have solar electricity, solar hot water heating, solar clothes dryers (clotheslines), and you don't have common spaces or elevators. Scharf won't respond to this, but: I'm very curious about the claim that single family homes use less gas and electricity than high-density housing. Others disagree with that statement. See https://michaelsenergy.com/briefs/mu...es-energy-use/ and https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=11731 It's true that single family homes _can_ have solar electricity, solar water heating and clotheslines; but only a tiny percentage do. Even in Florida (where we just vacationed) home solar units were extremely rare. And I didn't see a clothesline the entire trip. Well, I mean, really! Would you have all those people carry those wet clothes all the way out to the clothesline and hang them up? And than have to go back and pick them off the line and carry them all the way back into the house? Why, with all that tooing and froing they would miss Oprah. And on top of that, just think of the neighbors. How would they feel when they discover that their neighbors can't even afford a cloths dryer? And there goes the neighborhood. What will be next? School buses? It is sad. I have relatives that live in a community that has forbidden clothes lines. OTOH, riding through Amish territory (maybe 40 miles from my home) there are lots of clothes lines visible. I think it looks picturesque. My wife disagrees. The result is, when I happen to empty the clothes washer, the clothes go on the lines. When she empties the washer, they go into the clothes dryer. My wife and my mother both (although they never met each other) argue that drying clothes in the sun tends to sterilize the cloths and "make them smell better", although I don't know if that is one effect or two. Of course, when I was small there were no home cloths dryers and you hung your laundry even in freezing weather. And I know at least one family that is proudly anti-fracking, but uses a gas clothes dryer instead of a clothes line. Go figure! The whole fracking thing seems to be a different thing in different places. I see that the U.K. has just banned fracking but I gather that it is freely used in the U.S. But, from what I read, if you want more oil and gas than you have to accept fracking. Fracking is a rather complex subject. It has been used, although not a present pressures, for years in "tight" formations with , apparently, no problems, or at lest I never heard of any problems. Now, in order to economically produce shale oil/gas I gather that much, much, greater pressures are used and the fracturing extends over a much greater area and apparently there are resulting earthquakes. In addition there is the use fracturing fluid to be disposed of and I read one article that claimed that some of the disposal wells are producing earthquakes also :-) -- cheers, John B. |
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#22
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"Thanks for Lights"
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:50:39 -0800, sms
wrote: On 11/6/2019 3:08 PM, John B. wrote: snip Well, I mean, really! Would you have all those people carry those wet clothes all the way out to the clothesline and hang them up? And than have to go back and pick them off the line and carry them all the way back into the house? Why, with all that tooing and froing they would miss Oprah. And on top of that, just think of the neighbors. How would they feel when they discover that their neighbors can't even afford a cloths dryer? And there goes the neighborhood. What will be next? School buses? I find a clothesline more time efficient. We hang the shirts and pants on plastic hangers and let them dry on the hangers. We sort the socks as we hang them on the clothesline. While I don't watch Oprah, the to and from the clothesline, rather than from the utility room, is not much difference in distance. Of course if I lived in a high-rise apartment building our energy efficiency and sustainability would go down. We couldn't use solar to charge the plug-in hybrid. We'd have to use clothes dryer all the time instead of just in bad weather. We couldn't have all those plants and trees that are taking in CO2 and emitting oxygen. We'd have to use elevators to reach our unit. The common areas would have to be lit, heated, and cooled. Heating costs might be a little less. A good article about this can be found at https://www.citylab.com/design/2017/12/when-density-isnt-greener/548384/. How people in high rise apartments, in those exotic, far away, countries dry their clothes using solar "power". http://singaporeactually.com/2011/03...y-our-clothes/ Far, far, cheaper than solar panels. But we live in a "close-in" suburban community where we can get to many places by bicycle or walking. It's different when you live in a suburb that's far from civilization. -- cheers, John B. |
#23
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"Thanks for Lights"
On Wed, 06 Nov 2019 20:50:34 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote: John B. writes: On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:02:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/6/2019 12:49 PM, sms wrote: On 11/5/2019 2:31 PM, John B. wrote: snip Years ago I read an article describing what the author envisioned as the acceptable electric car. About the size of a VW Bug and with a range of 75 miles. Than he calculated the effects of everyone driving home from work and plugging in the car. Los Angeles, where he lived, would have to double the electric generating capability to handle the surge in requirements. On my street there are a lot of electric cars and plug-in hybrids. And every house with one of those vehicles also has solar panels on the roof generating far more electricity, even in the winter, to feed onto the grid to charge an electric car. In the winter the panels don't meet the entire need of the house, in the summer they exceed the entire need. So things have changed since you read that article years ago. Of course in high-density housing you can't have enough solar panels for the building to be self-sustaining, and surprisingly high-density housing uses more electricity and gas, on a per occupant basis, than a single family home. In a single family home you can have solar electricity, solar hot water heating, solar clothes dryers (clotheslines), and you don't have common spaces or elevators. Scharf won't respond to this, but: I'm very curious about the claim that single family homes use less gas and electricity than high-density housing. Others disagree with that statement. See https://michaelsenergy.com/briefs/mu...es-energy-use/ and https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=11731 It's true that single family homes _can_ have solar electricity, solar water heating and clotheslines; but only a tiny percentage do. Even in Florida (where we just vacationed) home solar units were extremely rare. And I didn't see a clothesline the entire trip. Well, I mean, really! Would you have all those people carry those wet clothes all the way out to the clothesline and hang them up? And than have to go back and pick them off the line and carry them all the way back into the house? Why, with all that tooing and froing they would miss Oprah. And on top of that, just think of the neighbors. How would they feel when they discover that their neighbors can't even afford a cloths dryer? And there goes the neighborhood. What will be next? School buses? I suppose you're joking, but there are certainly home owners associations that forbid clotheslines. One of the many reasons I wouldn't want to buy a house encumbered with one (HOA). Well yes, although I thought I was being cynical :-) Yes, I understand that there are HOA's that ban clotheslines. Thankfully I live in a country that doesn't have such a strange association. -- cheers, John B. |
#24
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"Thanks for Lights"
On 11/6/2019 10:44 PM, John B. wrote:
Fracking is a rather complex subject. It has been used, although not a present pressures, for years in "tight" formations with , apparently, no problems, or at lest I never heard of any problems. Now, in order to economically produce shale oil/gas I gather that much, much, greater pressures are used and the fracturing extends over a much greater area and apparently there are resulting earthquakes. In addition there is the use fracturing fluid to be disposed of and I read one article that claimed that some of the disposal wells are producing earthquakes also :-) We had one local earthquake that was caused by a deep well injection site. Apparently it hit a fault that was not known. It was only the second or third earthquake in this area since 1980, and quite a surprise. But the total damage reported was three bricks that fell off one old chimney, and supposedly a small crack in the wall of an old house. After that, the Ohio EPA mandated lots of earthquake monitors around injection well sites. I think they detected a few more, but below 2.0 Richter, which means they are generally not felt by humans. If a tree falls in the forest... Locally, a rabid anti-fracking group raised signatures eight times to put an anti-fracking measure on the local city ballot - a city where there never was and never would be fracking. But the measure would have outlawed ANY business connected to fracking, meaning probably shutting down the remaining steel pipe mill, a big source of jobs and tax funds. Their measure was voted down every time, but it took eight tries (and the death of one of the ringleaders) to get them to stop. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#25
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"Thanks for Lights"
On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:40:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 11/6/2019 10:44 PM, John B. wrote: Fracking is a rather complex subject. It has been used, although not a present pressures, for years in "tight" formations with , apparently, no problems, or at lest I never heard of any problems. Now, in order to economically produce shale oil/gas I gather that much, much, greater pressures are used and the fracturing extends over a much greater area and apparently there are resulting earthquakes. In addition there is the use fracturing fluid to be disposed of and I read one article that claimed that some of the disposal wells are producing earthquakes also :-) We had one local earthquake that was caused by a deep well injection site. Apparently it hit a fault that was not known. It was only the second or third earthquake in this area since 1980, and quite a surprise. But the total damage reported was three bricks that fell off one old chimney, and supposedly a small crack in the wall of an old house. After that, the Ohio EPA mandated lots of earthquake monitors around injection well sites. I think they detected a few more, but below 2.0 Richter, which means they are generally not felt by humans. If a tree falls in the forest... Locally, a rabid anti-fracking group raised signatures eight times to put an anti-fracking measure on the local city ballot - a city where there never was and never would be fracking. But the measure would have outlawed ANY business connected to fracking, meaning probably shutting down the remaining steel pipe mill, a big source of jobs and tax funds. Their measure was voted down every time, but it took eight tries (and the death of one of the ringleaders) to get them to stop. The oil companies, like almost any other venture, work on a economic basis and fracking allows the company to produce more oil/gas for a lower cost. So stopping fracking will (1) result in higher costs of production and (2) lower production, which will in turn result in increased imports and higher costs of hydro-carbons. Four or five dollar gasoline? Of course, the U.S. could reduce their consumption of hydro-carbons but that probably not a politically or practically possible - "we need two cars" - and if you live 20 miles from your work place than you likely do. -- cheers, John B. |
#26
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"Thanks for Lights"
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 9:49:44 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 11/5/2019 2:31 PM, John B. wrote: snip Years ago I read an article describing what the author envisioned as the acceptable electric car. About the size of a VW Bug and with a range of 75 miles. Than he calculated the effects of everyone driving home from work and plugging in the car. Los Angeles, where he lived, would have to double the electric generating capability to handle the surge in requirements. On my street there are a lot of electric cars and plug-in hybrids. And every house with one of those vehicles also has solar panels on the roof generating far more electricity, even in the winter, to feed onto the grid to charge an electric car. In the winter the panels don't meet the entire need of the house, in the summer they exceed the entire need. So things have changed since you read that article years ago. Of course in high-density housing you can't have enough solar panels for the building to be self-sustaining, and surprisingly high-density housing uses more electricity and gas, on a per occupant basis, than a single family home. In a single family home you can have solar electricity, solar hot water heating, solar clothes dryers (clotheslines), and you don't have common spaces or elevators. My electric bill is pretty stable all year around - slightly higher in the winter when the days are shorter. But it would require 83 years for a single solar panel to pay itself off compared to my electric bill. |
#27
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"Thanks for Lights"
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 3:50:48 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 11/6/2019 3:08 PM, John B. wrote: snip Well, I mean, really! Would you have all those people carry those wet clothes all the way out to the clothesline and hang them up? And than have to go back and pick them off the line and carry them all the way back into the house? Why, with all that tooing and froing they would miss Oprah. And on top of that, just think of the neighbors. How would they feel when they discover that their neighbors can't even afford a cloths dryer? And there goes the neighborhood. What will be next? School buses? I find a clothesline more time efficient. We hang the shirts and pants on plastic hangers and let them dry on the hangers. We sort the socks as we hang them on the clothesline. While I don't watch Oprah, the to and from the clothesline, rather than from the utility room, is not much difference in distance. Of course if I lived in a high-rise apartment building our energy efficiency and sustainability would go down. We couldn't use solar to charge the plug-in hybrid. We'd have to use clothes dryer all the time instead of just in bad weather. We couldn't have all those plants and trees that are taking in CO2 and emitting oxygen. We'd have to use elevators to reach our unit. The common areas would have to be lit, heated, and cooled. Heating costs might be a little less. A good article about this can be found at https://www.citylab.com/design/2017/12/when-density-isnt-greener/548384/. But we live in a "close-in" suburban community where we can get to many places by bicycle or walking. It's different when you live in a suburb that's far from civilization. I don't particularly have anything against electric cars but as the upper middle class people are leaving California they are leaving their electric cars behind and you are even seeing those Tesla sports cars on used car lots. So it would appear to me that electric cars are more of a status symbol than anything else and in other places of the country they are more the mark of a nutcake. |
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