A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old August 13th 17, 06:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,917
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 3:15:31 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-12 12:03, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 10:31:51 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 17:45, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote:
https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf





This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley
Bicycle
Coalition Bike Summit.

Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S.
has the lowest
number of bicycle travel in terms of distance, and the
highest death rate.


No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those
countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the
numbers on slide 6 are what they are.

When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands
(Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed
bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those
20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to
Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with
fast traffic at times which some potentially interested
cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt
field for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and
lifting the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would
be willing to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly
along a county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not
exactly fun.


But there's no end to that argument.

People who live at a bus stop and work at another think
buses are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for
some people they are merely inconvenient but for most
people buses are not useful in any way.

I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday
with a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a
distant bike trail. But when we first moved to town and had
just one car, I looked into riding a bus the seven or so
miles to work. It would have taken far longer than just
biking the whole way.

But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate:
http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434



"Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-)


Yes, that's one of their all-time best.

My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence to
every destination is ridiculous.


Those are not kiddie paths and they do almost go from residence to
destination in the Netherlands. The only way to experience this is to
actually stay there a few weeks and ride all the time.

When I worked in Hengelo we rented a house sight-unseen and split the
cost between four people. When I got there it turned out to have a bike
path right in front and the company also had a bike path system
connector straight into a massive bicycle parking lot. At one section we
had three lanes on the bike path while car drivers only had two. Having
grown up in Germany I was pleasantly surprised but the three others who
grew up in the Netherlands considered that to be normal.

You don't need it to every house. Folsom is an example how to do it
correctly. They have built a network of bike paths going through nearly
all residential and many commercial areas. Most destinations require a
few hundred yards of street riding but that is on low-traffic streets.
Except in some inner city areas but the very skittish could always hop
off and push the bike on a sidewalk for a few yards (I always ride in
the street).


Stevenage and Milton Keynes and other "new towns" in Britain are also
examples of how to do it correctly. One can bicycle from anywhere to anywhere
without interacting with cars. Except almost nobody bothers. It's easier
to drive.


There are communities that do the implementation correctly and there are
those which don't. Constantly lamenting the latter is not helpful. One
has to look at the successful ones and there are whole countries who
were successful. Stop criticizing everything and book a nice long
bicycle vacation in the Netherlands. Or Denmark.


One day I may; but there are about 200 nations on earth. If only Denmark and
the Netherlands have been successful at building the world you demand, why
would that be?

I suggest it's not because the other 198 or so are populated by dummies.
Instead, I suggest that there are factors at work in those two countries that
are absent almost everywhere else. They are both countries with a history of
high bike mode share, which itself is important. And they have that history
largely because of flatness, density, and economic history, among other things.
And those countries are still among the very few that are willing to actively
dissuade car use.

You're among the people who point to failed results of bike infrastructure
and say "well, they did it wrong." But in almost all cases, "they" did it
the way advocates requested. For example, "they" painted lots of bike lane
stripes when advocates claimed bike lane stripes would get lots of people
cycling. Now those same advocates are saying "Of _course_ paint stripes aren't
good enough."

Before Stevanage and Milton Keynes were built, advocates claimed separate bike
paths everywhere would induce people to leave their cars at home. So those
paths were designed into those new towns, a complete second transportation
route system, hoping to duplicate Dutch practice. But you're saying even that
is not good enough.

Face it, Joerg. Nothing is going to get more than a few percent of Americans
out of their cars, except some sort of national disaster.

- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #32  
Old August 13th 17, 06:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,917
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 3:35:16 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-12 12:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 10:45:41 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 16:52, sms wrote:


I would never move to a place like that if I was interested in
transportational cycling.


Indeed. I chose my residence carefully, so transporational cycling was possible.
Joerg should have done the same.

Sometimes it's good to move somewhere and then help estabishing a
cycling culture, also pushing for an infrastructure. Else it'll never
get expanded.


So what have you done to establish a cycling culture there? All we've heard
about is whining that riding there is dangerous.


Going to meeting...


Like what? I got appointed to a committee that got 3 federal grants for bike &
pedestrian projects. I single-handedly got another bike/ped path paved. I was
on a statewide committee to evaluate other bike/ped grants. I initiated two
bike transportation map projects, and gathered the volunteers and officials to
work on them. I've attended many meetings on transportation projects, and
caused definite changes on some of the projects.

providing input,


That probably means "I talked to some guy." So, like what input? And what did
your "input" achieve?

helping keep MTB trails open, and so on.


Your probably the only person here who considers a mountain bike trail to be
a valid transportational facility. Those things have a lower percentage of
practical (vs. recreational) use than even a farm country rail trail.

But most of all getting people on those trails because if they
aren't used they'll go away some day.


Sorry, Joerg, but your resume fails.

Riding on the trails is not dangerous.


Hah! You're the guy who's harangued us with tales of mountain lions and
stampeding deer, of close calls saved by inches with disc brakes, of bright
lights needed to prevent being run over by motorcycles. You can't have it
both ways. If your trails are so safe, drop the macho fantasy stories.

Riding on White Rock Road is.

https://goo.gl/maps/KRw6mqgnBrw


That looks like a photo of a cycling paradise.

It's hard to say how much the constant nagging by the various parties
including myself achieves.


I was asking what YOU have achieved, not "various parties." It sounds like
you've achieved nothing.

- Frank Krygowski
  #33  
Old August 13th 17, 07:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,159
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 12:03:44 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 10:31:51 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 17:45, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote:
https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf





This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley
Bicycle
Coalition Bike Summit.

Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S.
has the lowest
number of bicycle travel in terms of distance, and the
highest death rate.


No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those
countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the
numbers on slide 6 are what they are.

When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands
(Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed
bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those
20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to
Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with
fast traffic at times which some potentially interested
cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt
field for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and
lifting the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would
be willing to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly
along a county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not
exactly fun.


But there's no end to that argument.

People who live at a bus stop and work at another think
buses are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for
some people they are merely inconvenient but for most
people buses are not useful in any way.

I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday
with a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a
distant bike trail. But when we first moved to town and had
just one car, I looked into riding a bus the seven or so
miles to work. It would have taken far longer than just
biking the whole way.

But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate:
http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434



"Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-)


Yes, that's one of their all-time best.

My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence to
every destination is ridiculous.


Those are not kiddie paths and they do almost go from residence to
destination in the Netherlands. The only way to experience this is to
actually stay there a few weeks and ride all the time.

When I worked in Hengelo we rented a house sight-unseen and split the
cost between four people. When I got there it turned out to have a bike
path right in front and the company also had a bike path system
connector straight into a massive bicycle parking lot. At one section we
had three lanes on the bike path while car drivers only had two. Having
grown up in Germany I was pleasantly surprised but the three others who
grew up in the Netherlands considered that to be normal.

You don't need it to every house. Folsom is an example how to do it
correctly. They have built a network of bike paths going through nearly
all residential and many commercial areas. Most destinations require a
few hundred yards of street riding but that is on low-traffic streets.
Except in some inner city areas but the very skittish could always hop
off and push the bike on a sidewalk for a few yards (I always ride in
the street).


Stevenage and Milton Keynes and other "new towns" in Britain are also
examples of how to do it correctly. One can bicycle from anywhere to anywhere
without interacting with cars. Except almost nobody bothers. It's easier
to drive.

- Frank Krygowski


Something that the advocates of Holland's bicycle paths all seem to
ignore is that the cost of owning and operating an automobile in the
Netherlands is that most expensive in the E.U.
http://nltimes.nl/2016/02/01/survey-...ve-netherlands

Perhaps the solution to bicycle paths is simply to add a 100% tax to
all auto purchases :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #34  
Old August 13th 17, 07:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,159
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 12:15:38 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-12 12:03, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 10:31:51 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 17:45, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote:
https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf





This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley
Bicycle
Coalition Bike Summit.

Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S.
has the lowest
number of bicycle travel in terms of distance, and the
highest death rate.


No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those
countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the
numbers on slide 6 are what they are.

When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands
(Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed
bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those
20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to
Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with
fast traffic at times which some potentially interested
cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt
field for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and
lifting the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would
be willing to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly
along a county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not
exactly fun.


But there's no end to that argument.

People who live at a bus stop and work at another think
buses are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for
some people they are merely inconvenient but for most
people buses are not useful in any way.

I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday
with a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a
distant bike trail. But when we first moved to town and had
just one car, I looked into riding a bus the seven or so
miles to work. It would have taken far longer than just
biking the whole way.

But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate:
http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434



"Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-)


Yes, that's one of their all-time best.

My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence to
every destination is ridiculous.


Those are not kiddie paths and they do almost go from residence to
destination in the Netherlands. The only way to experience this is to
actually stay there a few weeks and ride all the time.

When I worked in Hengelo we rented a house sight-unseen and split the
cost between four people. When I got there it turned out to have a bike
path right in front and the company also had a bike path system
connector straight into a massive bicycle parking lot. At one section we
had three lanes on the bike path while car drivers only had two. Having
grown up in Germany I was pleasantly surprised but the three others who
grew up in the Netherlands considered that to be normal.

You don't need it to every house. Folsom is an example how to do it
correctly. They have built a network of bike paths going through nearly
all residential and many commercial areas. Most destinations require a
few hundred yards of street riding but that is on low-traffic streets.
Except in some inner city areas but the very skittish could always hop
off and push the bike on a sidewalk for a few yards (I always ride in
the street).


Stevenage and Milton Keynes and other "new towns" in Britain are also
examples of how to do it correctly. One can bicycle from anywhere to anywhere
without interacting with cars. Except almost nobody bothers. It's easier
to drive.


There are communities that do the implementation correctly and there are
those which don't. Constantly lamenting the latter is not helpful. One
has to look at the successful ones and there are whole countries who
were successful. Stop criticizing everything and book a nice long
bicycle vacation in the Netherlands. Or Denmark.


The point that you, and others, seems to be missing was that Holland
started their bicycle transportation planning just after WW I ended.
In the 1920's bicycles were used in 80% of the distance of all trips
made. By the 1950's there were 400 bicycle parking facilities in
Amsterdam - some 70,000 parking spaces.

The first comprehensive bicycle census in Amsterdam
was held in 1930. 250 intersections were monitored on a single day
from 6.30 am until 6.30 pm. On the section from Leidsestraat
to Leidseplein 30,000 cyclists passed during the period and some 1100
of whom passed by between 8.45 and 9.00 am!

Now compare that data with the U.S.

Auto's were relatively cheap even before WW I. In 1910 Ford produced
12,000 cars. In 1914 Ford built more automobiles then all other car
makers combined. A Ford cost $900 1910 and $390 in 1915.
My father, who came from a normal (i.e., not wealthy) New England
farming family, had a Ford when he went to collage in 1926.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #35  
Old August 13th 17, 08:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,159
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 09:34:34 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 15:05:55 -0700, sms
wrote:

https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf

This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley Bicycle
Coalition Bike Summit.

Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S. has the lowest
number of bicycle travel in terms of distance, and the highest death rate.


How many of the US deaths were due to getting hit by a drunk driver?
Of the bicycle fatalities which I'm somewhat familiar, two were from
drunk drivers and one was from a heart attack.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cyclist+killed+by+drunk+driver
"Investigators, however, have never provided a reasonable
explanation how (the cyclist), struck from behind, shares
responsibility for his own death..."

I'm also wondering if the statistics from other countries include or
exclude drunk drivers and heart attacks. Statistics without sources
are worthless.

Want to make the roads really safe for cyclists? Just execute drunk
drivers on the spot. Bicycle fatality statistics should drop rapidly.
However, I'm not sure it will affect the overall picture as some
cycling accident investigations seem to follow a "blame the victim"
mentality:
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-bicyclists-drivers-crashes-statistics-2014nov22-story.html

There are statistics that show the percent of drivers, both bicycle
and auto, who have imbibed.

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/pe...facts/bicycles
Among bicyclists ages 16 and older who were killed in 2015, 23 percent
had blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) at or above 0.08 percent.

https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...d-bike-deaths/
Some 21 percent of autopsies for New York City bicyclists who died
within three hours of their accidents detected alcohol in the body,
according to a Department of Health and Mental Hygiene study that
examined fatal bicycling accidents in New York City from 1996 to 2005.

http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...027-story.html
( referring to fatalities ) 28% of riders age 16 and older had blood
alcohol concentrations of .08% or higher, the level at which someone
is considered impaired.

I googled on "bicycle fatalities+cyclist who have high BAC" and there
were 1,050,000 hits.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #36  
Old August 13th 17, 08:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,159
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:54:40 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-12 07:24, wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 5:45:38 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote:
https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf






This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley
Bicycle Coalition Bike Summit.

Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S.
has the lowest number of bicycle travel in terms of
distance, and the highest death rate.


No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those
countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the
numbers on slide 6 are what they are.

When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands
(Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed
bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those
20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to
Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with
fast traffic at times which some potentially interested
cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field
for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and lifting
the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would be willing
to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly along a
county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly fun.


But there's no end to that argument.

People who live at a bus stop and work at another think buses
are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for some people
they are merely inconvenient but for most people buses are not
useful in any way.

I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday with
a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a distant bike
trail. But when we first moved to town and had just one car, I
looked into riding a bus the seven or so miles to work. It would
have taken far longer than just biking the whole way.

But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate:
http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434




"Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-)


Yes, that's one of their all-time best.

My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence
to every destination is ridiculous.


And my point is that IF you have separate bicycle facilities like
that car drivers again believe you don't belong on their roads.


My experience is that some of them believe that anyhow regardlesss of
whether there is a bike path or not. Those are the ones deliberately
passing closely or speeding up to the cyclist and the lean on the horn.


Out of curiosity, how many is that?

Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different
laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass
closely or leaned on the horn.

Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then
they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in
very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people
occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of
beep.

Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray?
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #37  
Old August 13th 17, 10:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,281
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:54:40 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-12 07:24, wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 5:45:38 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote:
https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf






This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley
Bicycle Coalition Bike Summit.

Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S.
has the lowest number of bicycle travel in terms of
distance, and the highest death rate.


No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those
countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the
numbers on slide 6 are what they are.

When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands
(Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed
bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those
20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to
Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with
fast traffic at times which some potentially interested
cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field
for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and lifting
the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would be willing
to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly along a
county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly fun.


But there's no end to that argument.

People who live at a bus stop and work at another think buses
are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for some people
they are merely inconvenient but for most people buses are not
useful in any way.

I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday with
a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a distant bike
trail. But when we first moved to town and had just one car, I
looked into riding a bus the seven or so miles to work. It would
have taken far longer than just biking the whole way.

But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate:
http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434




"Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-)


Yes, that's one of their all-time best.

My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence
to every destination is ridiculous.

And my point is that IF you have separate bicycle facilities like
that car drivers again believe you don't belong on their roads.


My experience is that some of them believe that anyhow regardlesss of
whether there is a bike path or not. Those are the ones deliberately
passing closely or speeding up to the cyclist and the lean on the horn.


Out of curiosity, how many is that?

Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different
laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass
closely or leaned on the horn.

Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then
they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in
very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people
occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of
beep.

Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray?
--
Cheers,


Your experience where you live is not indicative of everywhere.

I don't think traffic in Quebec is as bad as he portrays where he is but we
certainly have rednecks buzzing us and yelling to get on the bike path or
whatever. The very large majority of drivers try to keep the required
distance but it's certainly the few idiots that you remember.

--
duane
  #38  
Old August 13th 17, 03:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,883
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 12:15:36 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:54:40 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-12 07:24, wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 5:45:38 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote:
https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf






This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley
Bicycle Coalition Bike Summit.

Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S.
has the lowest number of bicycle travel in terms of
distance, and the highest death rate.


No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those
countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the
numbers on slide 6 are what they are.

When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands
(Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed
bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those
20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to
Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with
fast traffic at times which some potentially interested
cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field
for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and lifting
the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would be willing
to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly along a
county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly fun.


But there's no end to that argument.

People who live at a bus stop and work at another think buses
are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for some people
they are merely inconvenient but for most people buses are not
useful in any way.

I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday with
a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a distant bike
trail. But when we first moved to town and had just one car, I
looked into riding a bus the seven or so miles to work. It would
have taken far longer than just biking the whole way.

But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate:
http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434




"Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-)


Yes, that's one of their all-time best.

My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence
to every destination is ridiculous.

And my point is that IF you have separate bicycle facilities like
that car drivers again believe you don't belong on their roads.


My experience is that some of them believe that anyhow regardlesss of
whether there is a bike path or not. Those are the ones deliberately
passing closely or speeding up to the cyclist and the lean on the horn.


Out of curiosity, how many is that?

Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different
laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass
closely or leaned on the horn.

Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then
they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in
very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people
occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of
beep.

Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray?


California now has a 3 foot clearance law. But about 5% of the traffic purposely takes a close pass at you. Seldom horns but way too often the lack of clearance. Took a ride out to Alameda yesterday and on the way back we have to take the center of the lane because tree roots have lifted the pavement in the shadows of the trees. Cars came up behind us in our lane before pulling into the center lane and then immediately pulled over into our lane again. There was no reason for this. There were no turns, there was no other traffic and there was no reason to pull over directly in front of us. This wasn't a couple of cars but every single car that passed us. And there is a 20 foot divider in the road so there was no on-coming traffic that might have made the drivers nervous. And the three of us were riding at 20 mph so it isn't as if we were blocking anyone.
  #39  
Old August 13th 17, 03:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,292
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On 2017-08-12 22:26, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 3:35:16 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-12 12:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 10:45:41 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 16:52, sms wrote:


I would never move to a place like that if I was interested in
transportational cycling.

Indeed. I chose my residence carefully, so transporational cycling was possible.
Joerg should have done the same.

Sometimes it's good to move somewhere and then help estabishing a
cycling culture, also pushing for an infrastructure. Else it'll never
get expanded.

So what have you done to establish a cycling culture there? All we've heard
about is whining that riding there is dangerous.


Going to meeting...


Like what? I got appointed to a committee that got 3 federal grants for bike &
pedestrian projects. I single-handedly got another bike/ped path paved. I was
on a statewide committee to evaluate other bike/ped grants. I initiated two
bike transportation map projects, and gathered the volunteers and officials to
work on them. I've attended many meetings on transportation projects, and
caused definite changes on some of the projects.


I guess most of us know you are good at tooting your own horn.


providing input,


That probably means "I talked to some guy." So, like what input? And what did
your "input" achieve?


Input during meetings, followed up by detailed written input to committee.


helping keep MTB trails open, and so on.


Your probably the only person here who considers a mountain bike trail to be
a valid transportational facility. Those things have a lower percentage of
practical (vs. recreational) use than even a farm country rail trail.


Not around here. People in my area know how to handle a mountain bike.
It does not scare them.


But most of all getting people on those trails because if they
aren't used they'll go away some day.


Sorry, Joerg, but your resume fails.

Riding on the trails is not dangerous.


Hah! You're the guy who's harangued us with tales of mountain lions and
stampeding deer, of close calls saved by inches with disc brakes, of bright
lights needed to prevent being run over by motorcycles. You can't have it
both ways. If your trails are so safe, drop the macho fantasy stories.


I've said before that you should read more comprehensively. Then you'd
know that there are easy methods that I employ to mitigate such risks.
LED lights have been invented. So has spray.


Riding on White Rock Road is.

https://goo.gl/maps/KRw6mqgnBrw


That looks like a photo of a cycling paradise.


Until the guy in the pickup truck comes and pushed you off the road. On
sections of which a barbed wire fence will meet you. Or the guy who
forgot that he had loaded fence sections that stuck out the right side.


It's hard to say how much the constant nagging by the various parties
including myself achieves.


I was asking what YOU have achieved, not "various parties." It sounds like
you've achieved nothing.


You don't have a clue.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #40  
Old August 13th 17, 03:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,292
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On 2017-08-13 00:15, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:54:40 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-12 07:24, wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 5:45:38 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote:
https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf






This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley
Bicycle Coalition Bike Summit.

Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S.
has the lowest number of bicycle travel in terms of
distance, and the highest death rate.


No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those
countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the
numbers on slide 6 are what they are.

When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands
(Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed
bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those
20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to
Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with
fast traffic at times which some potentially interested
cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field
for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and lifting
the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would be willing
to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly along a
county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly fun.


But there's no end to that argument.

People who live at a bus stop and work at another think buses
are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for some people
they are merely inconvenient but for most people buses are not
useful in any way.

I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday with
a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a distant bike
trail. But when we first moved to town and had just one car, I
looked into riding a bus the seven or so miles to work. It would
have taken far longer than just biking the whole way.

But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate:
http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434




"Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-)


Yes, that's one of their all-time best.

My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence
to every destination is ridiculous.

And my point is that IF you have separate bicycle facilities like
that car drivers again believe you don't belong on their roads.


My experience is that some of them believe that anyhow regardlesss of
whether there is a bike path or not. Those are the ones deliberately
passing closely or speeding up to the cyclist and the lean on the horn.


Out of curiosity, how many is that?


I started riding again fall of 2013 and it was dozens. Most of them
low-lifes in pickup truck of various degrees of dilapidation. Deliberate
close passes, yelling, the finger, and so on. Also sevral sports car
drivers who probably think they own the road because they paid so much.


Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different
laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass
closely or leaned on the horn.


I only know Thais who live in the US and, like people from the
Philippines, they are among the most friendly there are. Very pleasant
to be around.


Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then
they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in
very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people
occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of
beep.


I don't mind that. I meant the passes where they perceive me to be too
far into "their" lane, pass very closely and then pull hard right
immediately in front.


Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray?



Sometimes, yes.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bicycle Light Theft & Bicycle Parking Infrastructure sms Techniques 18 March 10th 17 11:51 PM
Bicycle Infrastructure and Safety: Death in PDX Jay Beattie Techniques 20 May 26th 12 02:30 AM
Cycle Infrastructure Design Paul Luton[_2_] UK 15 November 2nd 08 06:29 PM
Sprocket design and analysis bicycle_disciple Techniques 3 October 2nd 06 04:57 PM
How2 design ergo handle and stress on the arm/elbow teachndad Unicycling 7 November 22nd 04 09:19 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2017 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.