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Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure



 
 
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  #81  
Old August 15th 17, 04:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
cyclintom@gmail.com
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,346
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 7:01:00 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/14/2017 6:11 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/14/2017 1:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 09:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:05:04 PM UTC-4,
wrote: Snipped
The entire trouble in California is the excessive taxation. The
Federal government is nearly as bad.

Snipped
You want business growth in the US - stop preventing it by
excessive taxation. Here they have added an addition tax every year
for the last three years to "fix the roads" and still haven't done
anything more than patched them in the most egregious places.

Got to pay for all that bicycling infrastructure planning and
building somehow. Bicyclist aren't going to pay it just themselves.
Thus others re forced to chi; in via taxes.


We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10 (ten!)
times more than what we paid for a house of similar value in Europe.
And yes, I do expect something in return for that much money. Such as
bike paths.

You complain a lot about America. Why not move back to Europe?


Since November I am not complaining too much :-)

When one has lived in several countries one can compare and try to bring
some of the better ideas to the new place. America has some major
upsides versus Europe such as better fostering of free enterprise (on
the federal level, not the Californian level)


So the only major upside of America you mention doesn't exist in
California? But you chose to live in California?

You're not sounding brilliant, Joerg.


Do you think you are Frank?
Ads
  #82  
Old August 15th 17, 04:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
cyclintom@gmail.com
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,346
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 12:15:36 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:54:40 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-12 07:24, wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 5:45:38 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote:
https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf






This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley
Bicycle Coalition Bike Summit.

Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S.
has the lowest number of bicycle travel in terms of
distance, and the highest death rate.


No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those
countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the
numbers on slide 6 are what they are.

When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands
(Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed
bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those
20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to
Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with
fast traffic at times which some potentially interested
cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field
for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and lifting
the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would be willing
to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly along a
county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly fun.


But there's no end to that argument.

People who live at a bus stop and work at another think buses
are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for some people
they are merely inconvenient but for most people buses are not
useful in any way.

I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday with
a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a distant bike
trail. But when we first moved to town and had just one car, I
looked into riding a bus the seven or so miles to work. It would
have taken far longer than just biking the whole way.

But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate:
http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434




"Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-)


Yes, that's one of their all-time best.

My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence
to every destination is ridiculous.

And my point is that IF you have separate bicycle facilities like
that car drivers again believe you don't belong on their roads.


My experience is that some of them believe that anyhow regardlesss of
whether there is a bike path or not. Those are the ones deliberately
passing closely or speeding up to the cyclist and the lean on the horn.


Out of curiosity, how many is that?

Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different
laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass
closely or leaned on the horn.

Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then
they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in
very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people
occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of
beep.

Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray?


A couple of blocks from my home is a store. A bike lane runs along the curb and then ends abruptly a hundred feet from the intersection. This is a right turn must turn right lane plus there are four driveways in and out of the shopping center.

So I ride in the middle lane which ends up going straight, instead of in the dangerous bike lane. Almost every time I do that I have people whom I would BLOCK if I were in the bike lane screaming at me to get in the bike lane..

You have to picture this - people are driving in the #2 lane and at the last second pulling into the #3 lane simply to give me grief. And since this is only a couple of blocks from my house I go this way almost every ride.

Going in the opposite direction is almost the same situation. The #2 lane is a right turn only and people will drive in that with a perfectly clear #1 lane just to pass close to me. Again - EVERY TIME that I go out with only rare exceptions. They will do this even when you can look ahead and see a heavy truck blocking part of the right lane.

So don't use the excuse that this doesn't happen too frequently. Every ride I go on at lease once I get a close pass of someone yelling at me to get out of the way. And even when I'm in a bike lane - people driving and the road bending right will NOT stay in their lane - they will pull almost to the curb crossing completely over the bike lane.

The bike lanes are directly adjacent to the parking lane and an SUV or a two door door will totally cover the bike lane and traffic will speed up in order to force you to stop instead of allowing you to go around the blockage..

Sunday on two occasions cars almost turned left into me because they misjudged my speed. And I was wearing a dayglow green jacket.

None of Joerg's complaints are unfounded. Because I refuse to be pushed off of a public road doesn't mean that these sorts of things do not frighten the overwhelming majority of people that could be bike riders.

I find it offensive to put up with these things every ride and have people on this group pretend that it's all in my or Joerg's head. The only thing I can think is that people that do not see this are either blind or stupid.
  #83  
Old August 15th 17, 05:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,338
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 5:21:44 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:55:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/14/2017 1:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 09:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:05:04 PM UTC-4,
wrote: Snipped
The entire trouble in California is the excessive taxation. The
Federal government is nearly as bad.

Snipped
You want business growth in the US - stop preventing it by
excessive taxation. Here they have added an addition tax every year
for the last three years to "fix the roads" and still haven't done
anything more than patched them in the most egregious places.

Got to pay for all that bicycling infrastructure planning and
building somehow. Bicyclist aren't going to pay it just themselves.
Thus others re forced to chi; in via taxes.


We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10 (ten!)
times more than what we paid for a house of similar value in Europe. And
yes, I do expect something in return for that much money. Such as bike
paths.


You complain a lot about America. Why not move back to Europe?


What is ignored is that average salaries in Europe are much lower then
in 'The land of opportunity".

As an example, the Web tells us that the *average* Mechanical
Engineering salary in France is 40,250 Euro, approximately US$47,350,
while In The Netherlands (the land of bicycles) it is 38,704 Euro,
about US$45,534.

In the Sacramento area of California it is $70,603.
--
Cheers,

John B.


How much is it in phuket, bang-kok, and manila?
  #84  
Old August 15th 17, 05:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,394
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On 8/15/2017 11:20 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 12:15:36 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:54:40 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-12 07:24,
wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 5:45:38 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote:
https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf






This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley
Bicycle Coalition Bike Summit.

Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S.
has the lowest number of bicycle travel in terms of
distance, and the highest death rate.


No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those
countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the
numbers on slide 6 are what they are.

When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands
(Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed
bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those
20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to
Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with
fast traffic at times which some potentially interested
cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field
for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and lifting
the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would be willing
to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly along a
county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly fun.


But there's no end to that argument.

People who live at a bus stop and work at another think buses
are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for some people
they are merely inconvenient but for most people buses are not
useful in any way.

I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday with
a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a distant bike
trail. But when we first moved to town and had just one car, I
looked into riding a bus the seven or so miles to work. It would
have taken far longer than just biking the whole way.

But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate:
http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434




"Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-)


Yes, that's one of their all-time best.

My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence
to every destination is ridiculous.

And my point is that IF you have separate bicycle facilities like
that car drivers again believe you don't belong on their roads.


My experience is that some of them believe that anyhow regardlesss of
whether there is a bike path or not. Those are the ones deliberately
passing closely or speeding up to the cyclist and the lean on the horn.


Out of curiosity, how many is that?

Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different
laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass
closely or leaned on the horn.

Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then
they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in
very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people
occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of
beep.

Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray?


A couple of blocks from my home is a store. A bike lane runs along the curb and then ends abruptly a hundred feet from the intersection. This is a right turn must turn right lane plus there are four driveways in and out of the shopping center.

So I ride in the middle lane which ends up going straight, instead of in the dangerous bike lane. Almost every time I do that I have people whom I would BLOCK if I were in the bike lane screaming at me to get in the bike lane.

You have to picture this - people are driving in the #2 lane and at the last second pulling into the #3 lane simply to give me grief. And since this is only a couple of blocks from my house I go this way almost every ride.

Going in the opposite direction is almost the same situation. The #2 lane is a right turn only and people will drive in that with a perfectly clear #1 lane just to pass close to me. Again - EVERY TIME that I go out with only rare exceptions. They will do this even when you can look ahead and see a heavy truck blocking part of the right lane.

So don't use the excuse that this doesn't happen too frequently. Every ride I go on at lease once I get a close pass of someone yelling at me to get out of the way. And even when I'm in a bike lane - people driving and the road bending right will NOT stay in their lane - they will pull almost to the curb crossing completely over the bike lane.

The bike lanes are directly adjacent to the parking lane and an SUV or a two door door will totally cover the bike lane and traffic will speed up in order to force you to stop instead of allowing you to go around the blockage.

Sunday on two occasions cars almost turned left into me because they misjudged my speed. And I was wearing a dayglow green jacket.

None of Joerg's complaints are unfounded. Because I refuse to be pushed off of a public road doesn't mean that these sorts of things do not frighten the overwhelming majority of people that could be bike riders.

I find it offensive to put up with these things every ride and have people on this group pretend that it's all in my or Joerg's head. The only thing I can think is that people that do not see this are either blind or stupid.


You might consider the possibility that others do not experience the
horrors that you do. That might be true for a variety of reasons.

I bike commuted 2.6 miles each way to one job for three years, then 7
miles each way to another job for over 30 years. I experienced almost
none of those problems.

Now my area is not your area. I generally choose my routes to avoid the
busiest streets, although sometimes there are no alternatives. In those
cases I ride the busy streets, but still without horror stories.

To get to any shopping west of my home, I pretty much have to ride at
least some distance on a road that almost all local cyclists avoid. Five
lanes counting the bi-directional turn lane, over 35,000 vehicles per
day, tons of shopping plazas etc. along its route, etc. It's certainly
not a quiet, scenic ride, and even a lot of motorists hate driving it.
Just based on aesthetics I often use alternate routes.

But maybe five years ago I consulted with a novice middle aged cyclist
who was going to do an epic tour, Ohio to Florida in response to a
life-changing event. After coaching him for a month or so on equipment
and training, I rode out with him on the first 15 miles of his journey.

This novice left heading west on that very same 35,000 car per day road.
He planted himself dead center in the right lane, sitting very upright
on his comfort bike, and rode smiling down the road. He was less nervous
than I was! And the response from drivers? They slowed when necessary,
changed lanes to pass, never once honked or shouted or gestured. And
BTW, the guy made it to Florida with no troubles at all.

I'll also mention, as Warm Showers hosts, we've been visited by many
touring cyclists. Many have arrived and some have left via that same
busy road. Not one has ever complained about it.

I have ridden roads that were narrow-laned hell holes of fast, impatient
and rude drivers. But IME those roads are a minority in America. If I
lived in a place where those were the norm, I'd look into moving.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #85  
Old August 15th 17, 06:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,769
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 8:20:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 12:15:36 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:54:40 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-12 07:24, wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 5:45:38 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote:
https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf






This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley
Bicycle Coalition Bike Summit.

Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S.
has the lowest number of bicycle travel in terms of
distance, and the highest death rate.


No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those
countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the
numbers on slide 6 are what they are.

When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands
(Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed
bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those
20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to
Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with
fast traffic at times which some potentially interested
cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field
for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and lifting
the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would be willing
to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly along a
county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly fun.


But there's no end to that argument.

People who live at a bus stop and work at another think buses
are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for some people
they are merely inconvenient but for most people buses are not
useful in any way.

I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday with
a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a distant bike
trail. But when we first moved to town and had just one car, I
looked into riding a bus the seven or so miles to work. It would
have taken far longer than just biking the whole way.

But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate:
http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434




"Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-)


Yes, that's one of their all-time best.

My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence
to every destination is ridiculous.

And my point is that IF you have separate bicycle facilities like
that car drivers again believe you don't belong on their roads.


My experience is that some of them believe that anyhow regardlesss of
whether there is a bike path or not. Those are the ones deliberately
passing closely or speeding up to the cyclist and the lean on the horn..


Out of curiosity, how many is that?

Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different
laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass
closely or leaned on the horn.

Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then
they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in
very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people
occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of
beep.

Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray?


A couple of blocks from my home is a store. A bike lane runs along the curb and then ends abruptly a hundred feet from the intersection. This is a right turn must turn right lane plus there are four driveways in and out of the shopping center.

So I ride in the middle lane which ends up going straight, instead of in the dangerous bike lane. Almost every time I do that I have people whom I would BLOCK if I were in the bike lane screaming at me to get in the bike lane.

You have to picture this - people are driving in the #2 lane and at the last second pulling into the #3 lane simply to give me grief. And since this is only a couple of blocks from my house I go this way almost every ride.

Going in the opposite direction is almost the same situation. The #2 lane is a right turn only and people will drive in that with a perfectly clear #1 lane just to pass close to me. Again - EVERY TIME that I go out with only rare exceptions. They will do this even when you can look ahead and see a heavy truck blocking part of the right lane.

So don't use the excuse that this doesn't happen too frequently. Every ride I go on at lease once I get a close pass of someone yelling at me to get out of the way. And even when I'm in a bike lane - people driving and the road bending right will NOT stay in their lane - they will pull almost to the curb crossing completely over the bike lane.

The bike lanes are directly adjacent to the parking lane and an SUV or a two door door will totally cover the bike lane and traffic will speed up in order to force you to stop instead of allowing you to go around the blockage.

Sunday on two occasions cars almost turned left into me because they misjudged my speed. And I was wearing a dayglow green jacket.

None of Joerg's complaints are unfounded. Because I refuse to be pushed off of a public road doesn't mean that these sorts of things do not frighten the overwhelming majority of people that could be bike riders.

I find it offensive to put up with these things every ride and have people on this group pretend that it's all in my or Joerg's head. The only thing I can think is that people that do not see this are either blind or stupid..


That's fair. Traffic can be miserable, but as a practical matter, you're not going to get separate bike paths everywhere. You're going to have to get on the road sometime, even in Amsterdam. So, that means cars and bikes have to learn the rules -- as you know. Frank has a point about education, and maybe he also has balls of steel and can ride anywhere without fear. Not me. There are places where I say "f*** that!" and take a side path or some other less convenient route. Sometimes it's not about fear and more about being unpleasant. OTOH, some bike paths are a PITA, and I prefer the road which others find "scary." Some people have an amazingly low threshold for scary.

-- Jay Beattie.







  #87  
Old August 16th 17, 12:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,557
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:05:08 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-14 23:15, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 22:00:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/14/2017 6:11 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/14/2017 1:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 09:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:05:04 PM UTC-4,
wrote: Snipped
The entire trouble in California is the excessive taxation. The
Federal government is nearly as bad.

Snipped
You want business growth in the US - stop preventing it by
excessive taxation. Here they have added an addition tax every year
for the last three years to "fix the roads" and still haven't done
anything more than patched them in the most egregious places.

Got to pay for all that bicycling infrastructure planning and
building somehow. Bicyclist aren't going to pay it just themselves.
Thus others re forced to chi; in via taxes.


We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10 (ten!)
times more than what we paid for a house of similar value in Europe.
And yes, I do expect something in return for that much money. Such as
bike paths.

You complain a lot about America. Why not move back to Europe?


Since November I am not complaining too much :-)

When one has lived in several countries one can compare and try to bring
some of the better ideas to the new place. America has some major
upsides versus Europe such as better fostering of free enterprise (on
the federal level, not the Californian level)

So the only major upside of America you mention doesn't exist in
California?



To a large extent it doesn't.


... But you chose to live in California?


No. My employer chose that. IWe would like to move out of state but
moving is such a hassle. One of the main things holding us back is our
engagement in church and in the community. We are not special but, for
example, it would be hard to find someone else willing to be with
Alzheimer's patient (without getting nightmares after every time) and
also has certified therapy dogs for this sort of service.


You're not sounding brilliant, Joerg.



You are the master of premature conclusions. Judging without knowing the
facts.


Given that the Virgin Group (net worth 5 - 5.5 billion Sterling,
estimated in 2014) started with Richard Branson selling bootleg
records out of the trunk of his car, it doesn't sound like a business
is too difficult to get going in Europe.



Look at where he does most of his business though.


Today, yes.

The point though was that Branson started a business selling bootleg
records from the trunk of his car and built it into a billion dollar
business. Although you argue that there is so much to impede a startup
business in Europe.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #88  
Old August 16th 17, 12:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,557
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:09:32 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-14 20:09, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:45:44 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 13:27, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 10:55:54 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 09:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:05:04 PM UTC-4,
wrote: Snipped
The entire trouble in California is the excessive
taxation. The Federal government is nearly as bad.

Snipped
You want business growth in the US - stop preventing it by
excessive taxation. Here they have added an addition tax
every year for the last three years to "fix the roads" and
still haven't done anything more than patched them in the
most egregious places.

Got to pay for all that bicycling infrastructure planning
and building somehow. Bicyclist aren't going to pay it just
themselves. Thus others re forced to chi; in via taxes.


We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10
(ten!) times more than what we paid for a house of similar
value in Europe. And yes, I do expect something in return for
that much money. Such as bike paths.

That's it! Try triple that in Portland -- or more, if you have a
nice house. ...


Time you guys had a taxpayer revolt like the Californian
Proposition 13. I know a guy in New York who had a decent
academic-level income yet his family was essentially taxed out of
their home. There are reasons why New York, Orgeon and lots of
other places are not on my list of potential retirement places.


What the f*** are you complaining about? You think that for
four-measly-thousand you're going to get bike trails to your
door. You're crazy! Plus property taxes don't pay for
transportation infrastructure -- that is funded through
transportation taxes, usually the gas tax with general fund
input.


http://www.frontiergroup.org/reports/fg/who-pays-roads

Quote "Most walking and bicycling takes place on local streets and
roads that are primarily paid for through property taxes and other
general local taxes".


Well, that's just wrong -- particularly for you. AFAIK, property
taxes in California may pay a tiny part of certain transportation
projects -- like mass transit, highway lighting or pot-hole filling.
They're not being used to build bike paths. Look at your tax bill and
see if there are any bonds for bicycle infrastructure. And read
this: http://www.calbike.org/funding_sources



Quote from your link "Most of that is generated by your city or county"

So how do they get it? Out of thin air? Print it cladestinely?

Local taxes have two major sources, property taxes and sales taxes. We
contribute to both and expect something for that.


... After Prop 13, there
are few property tax dollars for transportation projects. Maybe SMS
can weigh in on this. But I do know you pay practically nothing for
property tax. I probably paid that much 20 years ago for a dinger
house in a sketchy part of town.


Why did you do that?


Assuming that you are a normal, intelligent person the question might
arise as to why you immigrated almost half way round the world to
settle in a state with, perhaps the highest tax burden in the U.S.,
and now complain about it?
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #89  
Old August 16th 17, 01:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,557
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 08:20:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 12:15:36 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:54:40 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-12 07:24,
wrote:
On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 5:45:38 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote:
https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf






This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley
Bicycle Coalition Bike Summit.

Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S.
has the lowest number of bicycle travel in terms of
distance, and the highest death rate.


No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those
countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the
numbers on slide 6 are what they are.

When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands
(Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed
bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those
20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to
Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with
fast traffic at times which some potentially interested
cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field
for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and lifting
the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would be willing
to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly along a
county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly fun.


But there's no end to that argument.

People who live at a bus stop and work at another think buses
are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for some people
they are merely inconvenient but for most people buses are not
useful in any way.

I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday with
a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a distant bike
trail. But when we first moved to town and had just one car, I
looked into riding a bus the seven or so miles to work. It would
have taken far longer than just biking the whole way.

But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate:
http://www.theonion.com/article/repo...ublic-tra-1434




"Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-)


Yes, that's one of their all-time best.

My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence
to every destination is ridiculous.

And my point is that IF you have separate bicycle facilities like
that car drivers again believe you don't belong on their roads.


My experience is that some of them believe that anyhow regardlesss of
whether there is a bike path or not. Those are the ones deliberately
passing closely or speeding up to the cyclist and the lean on the horn.


Out of curiosity, how many is that?

Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different
laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass
closely or leaned on the horn.

Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then
they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in
very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people
occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of
beep.

Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray?


A couple of blocks from my home is a store. A bike lane runs along the curb and then ends abruptly a hundred feet from the intersection. This is a right turn must turn right lane plus there are four driveways in and out of the shopping center.

So I ride in the middle lane which ends up going straight, instead of in the dangerous bike lane. Almost every time I do that I have people whom I would BLOCK if I were in the bike lane screaming at me to get in the bike lane.

You have to picture this - people are driving in the #2 lane and at the last second pulling into the #3 lane simply to give me grief. And since this is only a couple of blocks from my house I go this way almost every ride.

Going in the opposite direction is almost the same situation. The #2 lane is a right turn only and people will drive in that with a perfectly clear #1 lane just to pass close to me. Again - EVERY TIME that I go out with only rare exceptions. They will do this even when you can look ahead and see a heavy truck blocking part of the right lane.

So don't use the excuse that this doesn't happen too frequently. Every ride I go on at lease once I get a close pass of someone yelling at me to get out of the way. And even when I'm in a bike lane - people driving and the road bending right will NOT stay in their lane - they will pull almost to the curb crossing completely over the bike lane.

The bike lanes are directly adjacent to the parking lane and an SUV or a two door door will totally cover the bike lane and traffic will speed up in order to force you to stop instead of allowing you to go around the blockage.

Sunday on two occasions cars almost turned left into me because they misjudged my speed. And I was wearing a dayglow green jacket.

None of Joerg's complaints are unfounded. Because I refuse to be pushed off of a public road doesn't mean that these sorts of things do not frighten the overwhelming majority of people that could be bike riders.

I find it offensive to put up with these things every ride and have people on this group pretend that it's all in my or Joerg's head. The only thing I can think is that people that do not see this are either blind or stupid.


The Tourist Authority of Thailand dreamed up the nickname "The Land of
Smiles" as an indication of how friendly the people are here. I can
only assume that your country is named after an orifice in the other
end of the body.

Given that you are, from your writings, no longer employed one can
only speculate on why you don't move. Or is the entire country that
way?
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #90  
Old August 16th 17, 01:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,557
Default Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 09:25:56 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
wrote:

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 5:21:44 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:55:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/14/2017 1:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 09:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:05:04 PM UTC-4,
wrote: Snipped
The entire trouble in California is the excessive taxation. The
Federal government is nearly as bad.

Snipped
You want business growth in the US - stop preventing it by
excessive taxation. Here they have added an addition tax every year
for the last three years to "fix the roads" and still haven't done
anything more than patched them in the most egregious places.

Got to pay for all that bicycling infrastructure planning and
building somehow. Bicyclist aren't going to pay it just themselves.
Thus others re forced to chi; in via taxes.


We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10 (ten!)
times more than what we paid for a house of similar value in Europe. And
yes, I do expect something in return for that much money. Such as bike
paths.

You complain a lot about America. Why not move back to Europe?


What is ignored is that average salaries in Europe are much lower then
in 'The land of opportunity".

As an example, the Web tells us that the *average* Mechanical
Engineering salary in France is 40,250 Euro, approximately US$47,350,
while In The Netherlands (the land of bicycles) it is 38,704 Euro,
about US$45,534.

In the Sacramento area of California it is $70,603.
--
Cheers,

John B.


How much is it in phuket, bang-kok, and manila?


Much, much lower. On the other hand, there is no property tax, for a
personal residence, in Thailand. Whether Phuket or Bangkok, which, of
course, was the subject being discussed.
--
Cheers,

John B.

 




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