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  #11  
Old September 10th 17, 08:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 2,593
Default Road Discs

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 9:35:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-09 15:28, jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night.
I've done that many times ...



Consider an alarm that starts blaring in the house if left open and no
movement in the area for xx minutes. Or an automatic (but safe) closure
function that can be disabled during times you work in there. A bright
or blinking light in the hallway or something might already suffice. It
would alert you or your family that the garage is still open. Especially
at night before bed time when you turn off all light but there is this
remaining weird glow in the hallway.

I've had days when I walked the dogs and someone's garage was open, with
nice CF bikes and expensive tools in there, nobody around. Then I ring
their door bell and it's usually "Oh dang! Thanks!".


... -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a
gravel bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a
great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring
sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a
nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model
will not be available until December -- which really means that I get
to ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim
brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the
Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong
group to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, ...



ahem ... grumble


...but if you were
buying your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It
will be a dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad
luck. There would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so
light to start with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero
penalty with discs.


Disc. 100%. If my current road bike ever needs to be replaced disc
brakes are a non-negotiable requirement for me. Preferably hydraulic
though that's not common with brifters which I wouldn't need but any
road or CX bikes seems to have these days.


My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance
issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim
brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are
going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!


Nah. Rim brake pads will be available for decades. At least until you
and I are in a nursing home.

However, dry weather is not always that dry. Consider a big rain storm
of which you have many up there. Then the sun comes out and you think
that this ought to be the perfect time to ride. Still nice and cool but
no rain. At 20mph you go through a long puddle, no big deal. Then right
afterwards grandpa Miller doesn't see you and pulls out of the gas
station right in front of you. You hit the brakes ... two seconds of ...
nothing.

I even had brake delay when I rode through overspray from landscaping
sprinklers next to the road. On a 100F day that is a refreshing event.
Until you need the brakes right there.


I prefer discs in rain, but I've never had problems with stopping a rim brake in the rain except once on a very poorly adjusted cantilever. You do get the momentary free-fall in really wet weather that is much less on discs, but riding in slightly wet weather is no big deal with rim brakes and aluminum rims. If I were on CF rims in the rain on a steep descent with rim brakes, I be scared.

I really don't want to wait and will probably get a rim brake, but who knows. I'm pondering. I was riding today with some friends and getting throttled -- because I'm older and slower this year but also because of my lumbering disc-brake gravel bike. Sorry, man, it is about the bike. Gaps between me and my cohorts are consistently smaller when I'm on my fast bike -- even the semi-fast Roubaix. I want my light bike back.

And my discs did not give me some wild advantage on the descents as claimed by others, e.g., "I can brake later in the turn and keep up more speed." What? Braking is braking. I don't brake any differently on my disc bike than my rim-brake bike, and my speed in or out of the turn is often determined by the amount of crap on the road and the crown camber. My friends were on rim brakes, and our places at the bottom of a twisting descent were the same as always -- and the only difference is that I had a draggy disc that was noisy for a minute until the piston withdrew fully. I don't know what's up with that, but apart from the noise, it doesn't slow me down. Anyway, I didn't feel like I had any great advantage. And when its wet, we all slow down because of low traction and not because of inadequate brakes. Nonetheless, I do like he power and modulation of discs, and they are clearly superior in rain.

-- Jay Beattie.

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  #12  
Old September 10th 17, 09:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 8,470
Default Road Discs

On Saturday, September 9, 2017 at 11:28:59 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!


I agree with Lou, you can wait until December if you really want discs. But I don't think obsolescence is all that likely; for the next several decades there will thousands of heritage bikes requiring parts for rim brakes.

I have bikes with roller brakes (good, bad and ugly, the ugly the strong and sudden latest model from Shimano which require constant attention if you want to avoid a face plant), discs (constant maintenance because they chew pads, a pain in the ass), standard rim brakes, and hydraulic rim brakes.

I really love the hydraulic rim brakes for their progressive nature, though I understood from the snide remarks from the usual one-size-fits-all idiots on RBT when I specified the hydraulic rim brakes without the booster on my Utopia that you can set them up to be quite as nastily sudden and unpleasant as Shimano's latest roller brakes. You might consider the Magura hydraulic rim brakes a 622 (rim size) disc brake: all the components are there, hydraulic calipers, but with pads (which last an immensely long time, my set now having lasted 10K though admittedly I don't commute and hardly ever use the brakes on downhills) and very fine control being possible if it matters to you (it might in traffic).

On the subject of pads, you can buy pads of many different specifications for hydraulic rim brakes: they look just like standard pads. I don't ride often in the wet but I live on and among steep hills and generally ride as fast as I can, so sometimes I need good brakes in the wet, and for this I have no complaint about the standard Magura pads for the hydraulic rim brakes, and bought spares of the same for when the current set wears out, possibly after another 10K; I haven't been tempted by the pads advertised as especially for wet weather, and well thought of by all-season commuters and major tourers other groups.

Something to ponder: under any and all circumstances, retardation (i.e. braking performance) is limited by the frictional interface between tyre and road; rainwater acts as a sort of lubricant and thereby in most cases reduces retardation. Skids are often the result of brake-clamping exceeding road-tyre friction. There are no modern bicycle brakes known to me that cannot be arranged to exceed road-tyre friction; you'll probably have to go back to spoon brakes to find a brake that incompetent. This train of thought is an argument for smoothly progressive brake take-up, long-movement handlebar controls, and minimal force multiplication in the connection between handlebar control and pad (on discs this means choosing -- if there is a choice -- the larger rather than the smaller expansion chamber in the caliper; unfortunately, there is no longer a choice of caliper chamber size on the Magura Rim Hydraulics). The larger the disc between the pads, the easier a progressive skid-avoiding response is to arrange. And there is no larger revolving disc on a bike than the rim. Rim hydraulics add virtually no weight over other rim brakes and save a lot on hub-mounted discs.

Before I go, one more data point: Shimano disc brakes on my mountain bike required new pads every thousand miles, max, in the winter sooner, and on my Gazelle the front disc was no better behaved nor more economical of my time or pocket. On my Utopia with rim hydraulics, albeit a different class of bike used in a different manner, 20,000K seems reachable on a single set of pads, and replacement takes seconds rather than hours.

Andre Jute
All things in moderation, even moderation itself
  #13  
Old September 10th 17, 10:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,884
Default Road Discs

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 12:59:54 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 9:35:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-09 15:28, jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night.
I've done that many times ...



Consider an alarm that starts blaring in the house if left open and no
movement in the area for xx minutes. Or an automatic (but safe) closure
function that can be disabled during times you work in there. A bright
or blinking light in the hallway or something might already suffice. It
would alert you or your family that the garage is still open. Especially
at night before bed time when you turn off all light but there is this
remaining weird glow in the hallway.

I've had days when I walked the dogs and someone's garage was open, with
nice CF bikes and expensive tools in there, nobody around. Then I ring
their door bell and it's usually "Oh dang! Thanks!".


... -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a
gravel bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a
great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring
sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a
nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model
will not be available until December -- which really means that I get
to ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim
brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the
Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong
group to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, ...



ahem ... grumble


...but if you were
buying your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It
will be a dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad
luck. There would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so
light to start with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero
penalty with discs.


Disc. 100%. If my current road bike ever needs to be replaced disc
brakes are a non-negotiable requirement for me. Preferably hydraulic
though that's not common with brifters which I wouldn't need but any
road or CX bikes seems to have these days.


My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance
issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim
brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are
going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!


Nah. Rim brake pads will be available for decades. At least until you
and I are in a nursing home.

However, dry weather is not always that dry. Consider a big rain storm
of which you have many up there. Then the sun comes out and you think
that this ought to be the perfect time to ride. Still nice and cool but
no rain. At 20mph you go through a long puddle, no big deal. Then right
afterwards grandpa Miller doesn't see you and pulls out of the gas
station right in front of you. You hit the brakes ... two seconds of ....
nothing.

I even had brake delay when I rode through overspray from landscaping
sprinklers next to the road. On a 100F day that is a refreshing event.
Until you need the brakes right there.


I prefer discs in rain, but I've never had problems with stopping a rim brake in the rain except once on a very poorly adjusted cantilever. You do get the momentary free-fall in really wet weather that is much less on discs, but riding in slightly wet weather is no big deal with rim brakes and aluminum rims. If I were on CF rims in the rain on a steep descent with rim brakes, I be scared.

I really don't want to wait and will probably get a rim brake, but who knows. I'm pondering. I was riding today with some friends and getting throttled -- because I'm older and slower this year but also because of my lumbering disc-brake gravel bike. Sorry, man, it is about the bike. Gaps between me and my cohorts are consistently smaller when I'm on my fast bike -- even the semi-fast Roubaix. I want my light bike back.

And my discs did not give me some wild advantage on the descents as claimed by others, e.g., "I can brake later in the turn and keep up more speed." What? Braking is braking. I don't brake any differently on my disc bike than my rim-brake bike, and my speed in or out of the turn is often determined by the amount of crap on the road and the crown camber. My friends were on rim brakes, and our places at the bottom of a twisting descent were the same as always -- and the only difference is that I had a draggy disc that was noisy for a minute until the piston withdrew fully. I don't know what's up with that, but apart from the noise, it doesn't slow me down. Anyway, I didn't feel like I had any great advantage. And when its wet, we all slow down because of low traction and not because of inadequate brakes. Nonetheless, I do like he power and modulation of discs, and they are clearly superior in rain.


It absolutely does slow you down. You just don't notice like when your front derailleur is dragging up a hill and then you get it properly adjusted and you can tell the difference.
  #14  
Old September 10th 17, 10:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,884
Default Road Discs

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 2:04:56 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 12:59:54 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 9:35:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-09 15:28, jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night.
I've done that many times ...


Consider an alarm that starts blaring in the house if left open and no
movement in the area for xx minutes. Or an automatic (but safe) closure
function that can be disabled during times you work in there. A bright
or blinking light in the hallway or something might already suffice. It
would alert you or your family that the garage is still open. Especially
at night before bed time when you turn off all light but there is this
remaining weird glow in the hallway.

I've had days when I walked the dogs and someone's garage was open, with
nice CF bikes and expensive tools in there, nobody around. Then I ring
their door bell and it's usually "Oh dang! Thanks!".


... -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a
gravel bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a
great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring
sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a
nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model
will not be available until December -- which really means that I get
to ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim
brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the
Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong
group to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, ...


ahem ... grumble


...but if you were
buying your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It
will be a dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad
luck. There would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so
light to start with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero
penalty with discs.


Disc. 100%. If my current road bike ever needs to be replaced disc
brakes are a non-negotiable requirement for me. Preferably hydraulic
though that's not common with brifters which I wouldn't need but any
road or CX bikes seems to have these days.


My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance
issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim
brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are
going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!


Nah. Rim brake pads will be available for decades. At least until you
and I are in a nursing home.

However, dry weather is not always that dry. Consider a big rain storm
of which you have many up there. Then the sun comes out and you think
that this ought to be the perfect time to ride. Still nice and cool but
no rain. At 20mph you go through a long puddle, no big deal. Then right
afterwards grandpa Miller doesn't see you and pulls out of the gas
station right in front of you. You hit the brakes ... two seconds of ....
nothing.

I even had brake delay when I rode through overspray from landscaping
sprinklers next to the road. On a 100F day that is a refreshing event..
Until you need the brakes right there.


I prefer discs in rain, but I've never had problems with stopping a rim brake in the rain except once on a very poorly adjusted cantilever. You do get the momentary free-fall in really wet weather that is much less on discs, but riding in slightly wet weather is no big deal with rim brakes and aluminum rims. If I were on CF rims in the rain on a steep descent with rim brakes, I be scared.

I really don't want to wait and will probably get a rim brake, but who knows. I'm pondering. I was riding today with some friends and getting throttled -- because I'm older and slower this year but also because of my lumbering disc-brake gravel bike. Sorry, man, it is about the bike. Gaps between me and my cohorts are consistently smaller when I'm on my fast bike -- even the semi-fast Roubaix. I want my light bike back.

And my discs did not give me some wild advantage on the descents as claimed by others, e.g., "I can brake later in the turn and keep up more speed.." What? Braking is braking. I don't brake any differently on my disc bike than my rim-brake bike, and my speed in or out of the turn is often determined by the amount of crap on the road and the crown camber. My friends were on rim brakes, and our places at the bottom of a twisting descent were the same as always -- and the only difference is that I had a draggy disc that was noisy for a minute until the piston withdrew fully. I don't know what's up with that, but apart from the noise, it doesn't slow me down. Anyway, I didn't feel like I had any great advantage. And when its wet, we all slow down because of low traction and not because of inadequate brakes. Nonetheless, I do like he power and modulation of discs, and they are clearly superior in rain.


It absolutely does slow you down. You just don't notice like when your front derailleur is dragging up a hill and then you get it properly adjusted and you can tell the difference.


On my CX bike I mounted TRP 9.0 V-brakes and have never used anything better off-road. As Beattie said, I've never been limited to speed around a corner by how late into the turn I could wait before applying a brake.
  #15  
Old September 11th 17, 12:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 3,553
Default Road Discs

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 3:59:54 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
I prefer discs in rain, but I've never had problems with stopping a rim brake in the rain except once on a very poorly adjusted cantilever. You do get the momentary free-fall in really wet weather that is much less on discs, but riding in slightly wet weather is no big deal with rim brakes and aluminum rims. If I were on CF rims in the rain on a steep descent with rim brakes, I be scared.

I really don't want to wait and will probably get a rim brake, but who knows. I'm pondering. I was riding today with some friends and getting throttled -- because I'm older and slower this year but also because of my lumbering disc-brake gravel bike. Sorry, man, it is about the bike. Gaps between me and my cohorts are consistently smaller when I'm on my fast bike -- even the semi-fast Roubaix. I want my light bike back.

And my discs did not give me some wild advantage on the descents as claimed by others, e.g., "I can brake later in the turn and keep up more speed." What? Braking is braking. I don't brake any differently on my disc bike than my rim-brake bike, and my speed in or out of the turn is often determined by the amount of crap on the road and the crown camber. My friends were on rim brakes, and our places at the bottom of a twisting descent were the same as always -- and the only difference is that I had a draggy disc that was noisy for a minute until the piston withdrew fully. I don't know what's up with that, but apart from the noise, it doesn't slow me down. Anyway, I didn't feel like I had any great advantage. And when its wet, we all slow down because of low traction and not because of inadequate brakes. Nonetheless, I do like he power and modulation of discs, and they are clearly superior in rain.

-- Jay Beattie.


About 10 years ago my buddy bought a $1,500.00 CDN DaVinci MTB and rode it MOSTLY on paved roads and a few times on crushed limestone stone-dust rail trails oron very easy non-technical trails in a preserve near here. He went through disc pads very quickly to the point that he swapped wheels and put on V-brakes instead. None of the shops here, eventhe one specializing in MTBs and cyclo-cross could figure out why his pads wore out so quicly nor did they ever get the bike to stop eating disc pads at a very fast rate.

Cheers
  #16  
Old September 11th 17, 01:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,947
Default Road Discs

On 9/9/2017 3:28 PM, jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my

Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

At one place I owned I installed a device that automatically closes the
garage door after three minutes unless you disable it. I used the timer
for the light bulbs on the garage door opener to trigger a relay that
shorted the open/close terminals momentarily. I need to build another
one since I've done the same thing as you on occasion.

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring

sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a
nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model
will not be available until December -- which really means that I get to
ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake
model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the

Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group
to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying
your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a
dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There
would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start
with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance

issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes
-- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the
way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

I SPIT on rim brakes.

Go for a titanium frame with disc brakes. https://www.deanbikes.com/

---
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  #17  
Old September 11th 17, 02:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 6,030
Default Road Discs

Awww condolances...inside job. Bummer bummer.

Jay....you bought a try with gravel geometry ..whose at that shop...eyeball JD ?

Fairly, buy a bike with discs. Throw darts....

Have you visited n ridden around Teton ?

  #18  
Old September 11th 17, 03:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,593
Default Road Discs

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 6:06:12 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Awww condolances...inside job. Bummer bummer.

Jay....you bought a try with gravel geometry ..whose at that shop...eyeball JD ?

Fairly, buy a bike with discs. Throw darts....

Have you visited n ridden around Teton ?


Yes, the Tetons are on the TransAm route. I stayed in a rescue mission in Jackson Hole and had to suffer through a sermon to get a spot on the floor for my sleeping bag. And then these other guys talked all night -- some guy from Alaska talking about grizzly bears. I kid you not. Shut the f*** up! I hurt my knee grinding gears and popped a pain pill, which put me to sleep.. My girlfriend had to stay in the girl's dorm, which was plush by comparison.

Side story: my father was a small town pharmacist and put together a bag of drugs -- from antibiotics, anti-nausea/diarrhea, pain pills, etc. A physician and family friend signed the scripts. Dr. Jones -- he looked like he was right out of Norman Rockwell painting.

- Jay Beattie.
  #19  
Old September 11th 17, 03:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
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Posts: 74
Default Road Discs

sms wrote:

I SPIT on rim brakes.


Maybe that's your problem. Word on the street is that they don't work well
when wet. :-)

  #20  
Old September 11th 17, 04:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Gregory Sutter
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Posts: 143
Default Road Discs

On 2017-09-09, jbeattie wrote:

I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask because it's
wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last nice
road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs?


Jay,

Discs, but the #1 reason is so you can readily use wider tires.
(Insert the BQ reasoning here. tl;dr? More comfort, more grip,
no less speed.)

Were I to buy tomorrow, my next last bike would be this:
https://opencycle.com/UP

--
Gregory S. Sutter Mostly Harmless

http://zer0.org/~gsutter/
 




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