Buying on the net

L'acrobat Wrote:

and who is determined to spread FUD about the competitor that i
killing the
LBS dinosaurs.



No, I'm not. You're jumping to as many conclusions as a frog with
chili shoved up its arse. What I'm saying is that, don't whinge whe
the net doesn't fulfil all your cycling purchase dreams. It's what
said to DRS and it's what I'm saying to you. I think that the mark-u
charged by the average retail "dinosaur" (as you, again, s
disparagingly put it) is quite often justified by the service the
provide, if you would approach any transaction with less of the "I am
rock, I am an island (with a credit card)" 'tude: the staff might com
across a bit better, and do you some good.


I don't need some spotty little ****** in the LBS to patronise me whe
I
want to buy parts, I can also get exactly what I want faster via th
net
than from the LBS.



Sorry, I forgot to squeeze my zits this morning. And I promise I wil
attend my remedial personality classes when I get sick of my freerid
bike. I promise.


Again, you are trying sweeping generalisations to try to spread FUD -
cycling is not rocket science.



No, it's just that there is a certain class of product knowledge tha
you can't get from marketing blurb, sycophantic cycling magazines an
word of mouth that may benefit a certain class of cyclist, one of who
you are obviously not. Next time you need an STI or Ergo leve
serviced, or a BB tapped, or a wheel trued, don't come to where I work
because I might be slightly grumpy if you brag about how much money yo
saved by buying the product we've got hanging in the window for 10-15
less on the net. Capisce?



Whilst I appreciate you seem to have a need for stream o
consciousness,
anti consumer posts. I don't. the above is a load of self justifying
whining.
In reality, bike parts are little different from toasters - they ar
both
consumer goods, learn to live with that fact.



Really? Ever tried hitting the hills on a toaster? Maybe you should b
skiing.
And as for "stream of consciousness", I think you may be a littl
daunted and surprised that an LBS employee can string a sentence or tw
together to make a paragraph. I generally don't whine. Children whine
I'm just begging to differ with your model of how you think bike
should be supplied to people, and by inference, your underlyin
assumptions on how the world should exchange goods and services, an
for how long they should be expected to work, and with what input fro
experienced maintenance personnell.
No, I'm trying to dent your arrogant consciousness with a differen
point of view. Us serfs of the service economy actually, in the bik
industry, do it for love, mostly. The vast majority of people who com
in to bike shops are a pleasure to deal with, coz they are buyin
things that can make them happy. The miserable ones seem to sit at hom
and buy off the net, and get grizzly when their deals go wrong. I don'
see many miserable people in the shop, anyway.


M "Use it up, wear it out, make do or do without. Where's tha
attitude
gone? It won WW11" H

Utter nonsense - the attitude that won WW2 was the "churn them out i
vast
numbers" attitude that you seem to hate.[/color]

"Utter"? pomposity seems to be catching - I have a Department o
Industry poster from 1942 on my wall with this very slogan on it. M
mum remembers park railings being melted down for scrap - and bik
purchases being severely rationed.

Consumerism isn't cycling - if you insist on confusing the two, the
you are just in it for the purchases. I think I'll go for a spin on m
old converted track bike now, 40 y.o frame still rides pretty good.

M "gets about on a variety of conveyances"

--
mfhor

"mfhor" wrote in message

L'acrobat Wrote:

and who is determined to spread FUD about the competitor that is
killing the
LBS dinosaurs.

No, I'm not. You're jumping to as many conclusions as a frog with a
chili shoved up its arse.

Pot, meet kettle.

What I'm saying is that, don't whinge when
the net doesn't fulfil all your cycling purchase dreams. It's what I
said to DRS and it's what I'm saying to you.

You said a lot more than just that and all of it pig-ignorant bull**** and
offensive too. You have no idea what I'm buying, why I'm buying it, what I
want it for or anything else that's relevant but you still feel free to make
your **** up out thin air and try to chuck it my way. If I'm having grief
with one particularly well-known onlince vendor of bike bits for no better
reason than I'm in Australia and they're being pig-headed about my creadit
card then I'm entitled to tell people what's happening without dumb****
morons like you trying to use me as a poster child for their own
pig-ignorant personal rant.

[...]

Really? Ever tried hitting the hills on a toaster? Maybe you should be
skiing.
And as for "stream of consciousness", I think you may be a little
daunted and surprised that an LBS employee can string a sentence or
two together to make a paragraph. I generally don't whine.

You've fooled us well and truly. You do nothing but.

Children
whine.

Then stop it.

I'm just begging to differ with your model of how you think
bikes should be supplied to people, and by inference, your underlying
assumptions on how the world should exchange goods and services, and
for how long they should be expected to work, and with what input from
experienced maintenance personnell.
No, I'm trying to dent your arrogant consciousness with a different
point of view. Us serfs of the service economy actually, in the bike
industry, do it for love, mostly. The vast majority of people who come
in to bike shops are a pleasure to deal with, coz they are buying
things that can make them happy. The miserable ones seem to sit at
home and buy off the net, and get grizzly when their deals go wrong.
I don't see many miserable people in the shop, anyway.

There's nothing miserable about detailing one bad experience, especially
when it's relevant to a lot of people who read this group. What's miserable
is arrogant *******s like you who think they know everything trying to tell
us how awful we are because we choose to try to get best value for our
money.

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

"mfhor" wrote in message
...

L'acrobat Wrote:

and who is determined to spread FUD about the competitor that is
killing the
LBS dinosaurs.



No, I'm not. You're jumping to as many conclusions as a frog with a
chili shoved up its arse. What I'm saying is that, don't whinge when
the net doesn't fulfil all your cycling purchase dreams. It's what I
said to DRS and it's what I'm saying to you.

You are simply a liar.

"mfhor" wrote in message
...

"Yes, it's a wonderful new toy, this Internet whosamajiggy, but does it
help you to ride your bike? No. Does it alert you to incompatibilities,
or attempt to use a bit of ingenuity and face-to-face persuasion to get
things resolved? No. Does it rely on mountains of regulations,
protocols, lack of discrepancies, things out of your control and
uncaring blandness wrung from the dripping brows of transnational
financial serfs chained to their desktop boxes, who might as well be
selling toasters or fertiliser for all the interest and aptitude they
bring to your treasured cycling purchases? Well, shortly, yes."

Hint, don't lie when it is that easy to look up exactly what you said.



I think that the mark-up
charged by the average retail "dinosaur" (as you, again, so
disparagingly put it) is quite often justified by the service they
provide, if you would approach any transaction with less of the "I am a
rock, I am an island (with a credit card)" 'tude: the staff might come
across a bit better, and do you some good.

Again you seem to think a transaction involving bike bits is not a simple
retail transaction. you are wrong.

I give them money, they give me bike bits - the less money I give them for
said bits, the better and the dinosaurs can't compete.



I don't need some spotty little ****** in the LBS to patronise me when
I
want to buy parts, I can also get exactly what I want faster via the
net
than from the LBS.



Sorry, I forgot to squeeze my zits this morning. And I promise I will
attend my remedial personality classes when I get sick of my freeride
bike. I promise.

and I note that aside from avoiding the issue of LBSes frequently being
staffed by patronising ******s, you avoid the issue of speed of delivery.



Again, you are trying sweeping generalisations to try to spread FUD -
cycling is not rocket science.



No, it's just that there is a certain class of product knowledge that
you can't get from marketing blurb, sycophantic cycling magazines and
word of mouth that may benefit a certain class of cyclist, one of whom
you are obviously not.

Since word of mouth is, by definition, the best info you can get on a
product (ie the opinion of users who are not trying to sell you product),
then I'd like to see why I should (in your commercially biased opinion)
listen to someone who wants to sell me good V that of someone who doesn't.

Next time you need an STI or Ergo lever
serviced, or a BB tapped, or a wheel trued, don't come to where I work,
because I might be slightly grumpy if you brag about how much money you
saved by buying the product we've got hanging in the window for 10-15%
less on the net. Capisce?

You don't get it do you, if I can't do it myself, I know people who can (and
I listen to their 'word of mouth' opinions), the LBS is in deep trouble -
it can't compete on the product price and doesn't have a monopoly on expert
opinion - why would I go to an LBS to let a pretentious ****** do something
that I can do myself or get done by a mate for a 6 pack?




Whilst I appreciate you seem to have a need for stream of
consciousness,
anti consumer posts. I don't. the above is a load of self justifying
whining.
In reality, bike parts are little different from toasters - they are
both
consumer goods, learn to live with that fact.



Really? Ever tried hitting the hills on a toaster? Maybe you should be
skiing.

What a nice evasion, both are consumer goods. nothing more.

And as for "stream of consciousness", I think you may be a little
daunted and surprised that an LBS employee can string a sentence or two
together to make a paragraph. I generally don't whine. Children whine.

Then stop whining.

I'm just begging to differ with your model of how you think bikes
should be supplied to people, and by inference, your underlying
assumptions on how the world should exchange goods and services, and
for how long they should be expected to work, and with what input from
experienced maintenance personnell.

Yes, I can see that. I deal with reality and you think that selling bike
bits is a sacred vocation that is exempt from the basics of commerce.


No, I'm trying to dent your arrogant consciousness with a different
point of view. Us serfs of the service economy actually, in the bike
industry, do it for love, mostly.

Right and the pay is returned to the customer I take it?

The vast majority of people who come
in to bike shops are a pleasure to deal with, coz they are buying
things that can make them happy. The miserable ones seem to sit at home
and buy off the net, and get grizzly when their deals go wrong. I don't
see many miserable people in the shop, anyway.

More utter crap. how exactly would you know anything about those who buy off
the net, you don't interact with them.



M "Use it up, wear it out, make do or do without. Where's that
attitude
gone? It won WW11" H

Utter nonsense - the attitude that won WW2 was the "churn them out in
vast
numbers" attitude that you seem to hate.

"Utter"? pomposity seems to be catching - I have a Department of
Industry poster from 1942 on my wall with this very slogan on it. My
mum remembers park railings being melted down for scrap - and bike
purchases being severely rationed.[/color]

Oh good, propaganda posters as an indicator of actual wartime policy.

You might want to look into the reality of what happened to most of the
'scrap' that was taken away as part of the various 'war drives' - the short
answer is bugger all happened tomost of it - it was a very effective way to
make people think they were involved in the war effort, but in reality
contributed little in the way of material.

But while your at it, look up the actual numbers of tanks, planes,
artillery, ships etc churned out by the allies and USSR compared to those
made by the axis = a clear victory for the "churn them out" policy. but
don't let reality interfere with your fantasy.


Consumerism isn't cycling - if you insist on confusing the two, then
you are just in it for the purchases. I think I'll go for a spin on my
old converted track bike now, 40 y.o frame still rides pretty good.

What a load of wank. cycling is a consumer pastime. get over it.

L'acrobat Wrote:
What a load of wank. cycling is a consumer pastime. get over it.


Good. I've managed to bait both of the . . . (trying to think of a
word that encapsulates pig-headedness, peevishness, over-reliance on
technology, consumerism, and bad-mannered invective) out into the
open.

Hey, L'acrobat - before you try and teach history, get past the
crudities of the "biggest battalions" argument, then you might be worth
listening to.

If you started trumpeting the virtues of your latest internet purchases
down at Cafe Racer etc., or the Sydeny equivalent, you'd pretty soon
have a small audience of computech nerds, and everyone else moving down
to the other end. I hear more conversations about how 'X at shop Y fixed
a problem I had for years' - whatever the shop, whomever the X, I feel
glad that the local industry is kicking some goals.

The whining is done by those who can't get what they were promised, at
any price. Heh heh heh. If I promise, it is a considered promise, and I
rarely mess up. The price is higher, but the problem is less reliant on
unseen and distant factors.

If your attitudes are that cycling is a consumer pasttime, then just
slot uncritically into the prevailing worldview. Pop out. Learn. Earn.
Spend. Die.

P.S. - do you get your mate to fix the problem AFTER he has drunk the
beer?

M "tired of economic rationalists" H


--
mfhor

mfhor Wrote:
Good. I've managed to bait both of the . . . (trying to think of a wor
that encapsulates pig-headedness, peevishness, over-reliance o
technology, consumerism, and bad-mannered invective) out into th
open.

Hey, L'acrobat - before you try and teach history, get past th
crudities of the "biggest battalions" argument, then you might be wort
listening to.

If you started trumpeting the virtues of your latest internet purchase
down at Cafe Racer etc., or the Sydeny equivalent, you'd pretty soo
have a small audience of computech nerds, and everyone else moving dow
to the other end. I hear more conversations about how 'X at shop Y fixe
a problem I had for years' - whatever the shop, whomever the X, I fee
glad that the local industry is kicking some goals.

The whining is done by those who can't get what they were promised, a
any price. Heh heh heh. If I promise, it is a considered promise, and
rarely mess up. The price is higher, but the problem is less reliant o
unseen and distant factors.

If your attitudes are that cycling is a consumer pasttime, then jus
slot uncritically into the prevailing worldview. Pop out. Learn. Earn
Spend. Die.

P.S. - do you get your mate to fix the problem AFTER he has drunk th
beer?

M "tired of economic rationalists" H
BTW, if you go into likely shops with the attitude that the staff ar
"pretentious ******s", sure enough, you'll find them. Or your attitud
will make them put up their reciprocal "****** armour", turning th
potential relationship sour from the outset.

You're not confined to going into the glossiest shop with th
schmickest window display (which seems to need to justify itself b
staff attitude), you know. Isn't that what you're on about - choice
But I'm sorry, you prefer to be aloof.

M "still not apologetic for working in an LBS"

--
mfhor

"mfhor" wrote in message
...

L'acrobat Wrote:
What a load of wank. cycling is a consumer pastime. get over it.


Good. I've managed to bait both of the . . . (trying to think of a
word that encapsulates pig-headedness, peevishness, over-reliance on
technology, consumerism, and bad-mannered invective) out into the
open.

Or to put it another way, you can't refute the fact that Cycling IS a
consumer pastime and hope to shift the goal posts. fail.



Hey, L'acrobat - before you try and teach history, get past the
crudities of the "biggest battalions" argument, then you might be worth
listening to.


Ah yes the crudities of the bigger Battalions argument -

USA, in 1944 alone produced = 91,546 aircraft
Total axis (Germany, Japan, Italy) aircraft production for all of WW2 =
114,763

Total Allied and Soviet Tank + SPG production (excluding minor nations like
Aust), WW2 = 227235
Total axis Tank and SPG production, WW2 = 51845

Total Soviet Artillery production WW2 = 516648 guns
Total Axis Artillery production WW2 = 179694 guns

the figures are similar in almost all classes of equipment, the allies
produced their way to victory, but stick with the fantasy if you find it
comforting.




If you started trumpeting the virtues of your latest internet purchases
down at Cafe Racer etc., or the Sydeny equivalent, you'd pretty soon
have a small audience of computech nerds, and everyone else moving down
to the other end. I hear more conversations about how 'X at shop Y fixed
a problem I had for years' - whatever the shop, whomever the X, I feel
glad that the local industry is kicking some goals.

I don't hang around in cafes.

Of couse the thing you fail to acknowledge is that, if you are frequenting
bike shops and "shop X fixed Y problem you've had for years", then that
rather suggests that shops "A to W" were unable to fix it and still charged
for the "service", otherwise the problem would have been fixed years ago,
you also ignore the amount of problems fixed with advice available via the
net or by the "word of mouth" you malign.



The whining is done by those who can't get what they were promised, at
any price. Heh heh heh. If I promise, it is a considered promise, and I
rarely mess up. The price is higher, but the problem is less reliant on
unseen and distant factors.

Yet you are whining about people who choose to buy exactly the same products
at significantly less cost and delivered sooner.


If your attitudes are that cycling is a consumer pasttime, then just
slot uncritically into the prevailing worldview. Pop out. Learn. Earn.
Spend. Die.

Oh good. insane personal philosophy. more of that thanks.



P.S. - do you get your mate to fix the problem AFTER he has drunk the
beer?

Usually I help him drink it while we fix it.


M "tired of economic rationalists" H

Because economic irrationalists achieve so much...

"mfhor" wrote in message
...

BTW, if you go into likely shops with the attitude that the staff are
"pretentious ******s", sure enough, you'll find them. Or your attitude
will make them put up their reciprocal "****** armour", turning the
potential relationship sour from the outset.


yawn.

You're not confined to going into the glossiest shop with the
schmickest window display (which seems to need to justify itself by
staff attitude), you know. Isn't that what you're on about - choice?
But I'm sorry, you prefer to be aloof.

No, I just prefer not to waste money on a 'service' that doesn't add value.

L'acrobat Wrote:
"mfhor" wrote in messag
..

BTW, if you go into likely shops with the attitude that the staff ar
"pretentious ******s", sure enough, you'll find them. Or you
attitud
will make them put up their reciprocal "****** armour", turning th
potential relationship sour from the outset


yawn

You're not confined to going into the glossiest shop with th
schmickest window display (which seems to need to justify itself b
staff attitude), you know. Isn't that what you're on about - choice
But I'm sorry, you prefer to be aloof

No, I just prefer not to waste money on a 'service' that doesn't ad
value.
Well, I sort of picked you as an obsessive WW 11 facts and figure
type. But, it doesn't really tally with what happened to real peopl
during the conflict, of which about 10 of my near relations stil
living actually lived through, in the thick of it, i.e. in th
industrial heartland of the UK. Yes, so in the end the US had th
biggest military-industrial complex. But in Britain, during the day
before the Lend-Lease program, all stops were pulled out, all avenue
explored, and attitudes were formed that, in the end, produced som
rather nice examples of engineering, on a shoestring compared to wha
the Yanks could muster.

So yes, efficiency, quality of design, repairability and conservin
one's resources matter to me.

Who's to say we won't find ourselves in such straits again? Qualitie
demanded in bikes then will be repairability, durability, longevity
Superlight alloy and most CF will be seen for the toys that they are
Technologies will trend towards the local, rather than relying on part
on demand from around the world. Reusing, recycling. We might as wel
enjoy all the high tech we've got now, while we've got chance an
leisure. It may last, it may not - Should I give up learning to gas an
TIG weld because I'm assured that we will get everything we need fro
China?

When I was in Vietnam, I remember seeing an old Peugeot bike, one o
many, the elaborate name still visible under layers of slurry from th
fields. It had a huge bale of bamboo strapped to the rear. From it'
importation from France in what might have been the 30s, what had tha
bike seen? Had it been part of the supply trains during the America
War (as they call it)? And the mechanics on the street corners
keeping people going, for not much money. They don't need elaborat
distribution channels. They talk to the people they sell things to.
like to think that an element of that goes on in the shop I work in
How far are you away from that? Look down your elevated nose if yo
please. We sell high priced Italian, Taiwanese and US bikes as well. W
give bull**** to neither one category of customer nor the other.

M "*"

--
mfhor

"mfhor" wrote in message
...

You're not confined to going into the glossiest shop with the
schmickest window display (which seems to need to justify itself by
staff attitude), you know. Isn't that what you're on about - choice?
But I'm sorry, you prefer to be aloof.

No, I just prefer not to waste money on a 'service' that doesn't add
value.
Well, I sort of picked you as an obsessive WW 11 facts and figures
type.

Or alternatively, I own a book, you should try one. they frequently deal in
facts.

When reality is whipping your arse, trying to blame the messenger doesn't
get you out of it.

But, it doesn't really tally with what happened to real people
during the conflict, of which about 10 of my near relations still
living actually lived through, in the thick of it, i.e. in the
industrial heartland of the UK. Yes, so in the end the US had the
biggest military-industrial complex. But in Britain, during the days
before the Lend-Lease program, all stops were pulled out, all avenues
explored, and attitudes were formed that, in the end, produced some
rather nice examples of engineering, on a shoestring compared to what
the Yanks could muster.

None of which supports your earlier contention. also, none of these
relatives whom you quote had access to the fact that the vast majority of of
the scrap collected was not recycled.

also, you seem to be forgetting the vast amount of material the US sold to
the UK prior to lend lease, under the cash and carry act.

Treasure the fantasy.


So yes, efficiency, quality of design, repairability and conserving
one's resources matter to me.

as above, Treasure the fantasy.


Who's to say we won't find ourselves in such straits again?

We were never in such straits, but if we were, I expect we would rely on our
allies and massive production superiority. again.

Qualities
demanded in bikes then will be repairability, durability, longevity.
Superlight alloy and most CF will be seen for the toys that they are.
Technologies will trend towards the local, rather than relying on parts
on demand from around the world. Reusing, recycling. We might as well
enjoy all the high tech we've got now, while we've got chance and
leisure. It may last, it may not - Should I give up learning to gas and
TIG weld because I'm assured that we will get everything we need from
China?

an interesting fantasy with no basis in reality. a bit of a recurring theme
with you.



When I was in Vietnam, I remember seeing an old Peugeot bike, one of
many, the elaborate name still visible under layers of slurry from the
fields. It had a huge bale of bamboo strapped to the rear. From it's
importation from France in what might have been the 30s, what had that
bike seen? Had it been part of the supply trains during the American
War (as they call it)? And the mechanics on the street corners -
keeping people going, for not much money. They don't need elaborate
distribution channels. They talk to the people they sell things to. I
like to think that an element of that goes on in the shop I work in.
How far are you away from that? Look down your elevated nose if you
please. We sell high priced Italian, Taiwanese and US bikes as well. We
give bull**** to neither one category of customer nor the other.

more unrelated drivel. why do you think anyone wants to hear it?

L'acrobat Wrote:

more unrelated drivel. why do you think anyone wants to hear it?

are you facng a keyboard as you type that or a mirror?
We're over it lads. go ride some... :rolleyes

--
flyingdutch