There's more than "I was in Mexico" going on here...

On Jul 26, 7:27 pm, "J Jones" wrote:

Because he was leading the tour (every team's desire), was at the top of his
game (every team's desire), and tested negative 17 times (again, every
team's desire). Someone says "I saw him in Italy" and he's sacked, simple
as that? No way. There's more here than is being reported.

snip



Dumbass -


I speculate:

that the team knows he's gonna get busted for something not yet
disclosed.

They didn't want to be the sponsor of a rider that gets busted for
something not yet disclosed and also wins the GC in the 2007 TdF. A
no win situation for the sponsor and the sponsor chose the lesser of
two evils.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

"Casey Kerrigan" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
In article _ycqi.3098$zJ4.2506@trndny03, Tony S.
wrote:

"J Jones" wrote in message
...
There is no way possible that this single instance of Ras declaring he
was
in Mexico is the only thing going on here. There has to be other
instances of Ras's credibility coming into question. Plus, there has
to
be more evidence that he's been doping. Hard to imagine that team
leaders
and sponsors would ****-can him based on 1) a single questionable
instance
of his integrity, and 2) one person's "I saw him in Italy" comment.
Jeff

Why? The doping situation appears to be in a state of hysteria, perhaps
for
good reason, but the publicity and instant reaction over any little thing
is
not a good thing. Rumor was enough to yank Basso and Ullrich last year
(which happened to be a good thing), but I think that set a very bad
precedent. And, since when is a rider presumed totally guilty after the
"A"
sample tests positive? The system is built with some safeguards, and one
of
those is that the "B" sample must also test positive for a rider to be
found
guilty. This protocol is now completely irrelevant, as Cristian Moreni
was
pulled after only his "A" sample tested positive. Now, that's the Tour's
choice, and he is probably guilty, but let's remember that there are good
human and politic-neutral reasons for having the protocols.



Remember the Tour promoters want a clean race ( or at least the image
of a clean race) so they don't lose their sponsors. This is part of the
whole battle around the Pro Tour mess. The Grand Tour promtoers want
the ability to run their races as they see fit. They want the ability
to invite only those teams that they want to invite and they want the
ability to kick any rider out that they want out. The Grand Tour
promtoers don;t care about B samples or the fact that a test may be
wrong. They want to protest their sponsors and that means eliminating
any rider who even has a hint of being involved with drugs.

Correct !
It is what Patrice Clerc said yesterday.
http://jt.france2.fr/20h/index-fr.php?jt=0&start=493

http://jt.france2.fr/20h/index-fr.php?jt=0&start=603

No doubt that UCI want to take control of the TDF by discrediting ASO.
UCI was aware about Rasmussen Mexican (Italian or whatever) trip and the
no-control.
But THEY DID NOT SAID IT to ASO BEFORE. Why ????
The Danish federation (aware of it MONTH BEFORE) also said nothing BEFORE.
They expected Ras to have the yellow for to declare " Oh guy, I forget to
tell you that he missed some control ...."
And now we are in this mess.
Well done UCI

in message . com, Anthony
') wrote:

On 27 Jul, 02:34, "J Jones" wrote:
There is no way possible that this single instance of Ras declaring he
was
in Mexico is the only thing going on here. There has to be other
instances
of Ras's credibility coming into question. Plus, there has to be more
evidence that he's been doping. Hard to imagine that team leaders and
sponsors would ****-can him based on 1) a single questionable instance
of his integrity, and 2) one person's "I saw him in Italy" comment.
Jeff

I just think the team should check Rasmussen's passport and that would
end the speculation on that point beyond all doubt.

My passport has been stamped precisely twice in its history, and neither of
the stamps is legible. During that time (and on that passport) I have
visited

Iceland
Sweden
Republic of Ireland
Switzerland (several times)
Holland
Monaco
France
United States of America
Japan
Malaysia
Abu Dabi

Stamps on a passport prove nothing. But airline passenger manifests could
be checked, and they do prove something.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; 99% of browsers can't run ActiveX controls. Unfortunately
;; 99% of users are using the 1% of browsers that can...
[seen on /. 08:04:02]

in message _ycqi.3098$zJ4.2506@trndny03, Tony S.
') wrote:

Why? The doping situation appears to be in a state of hysteria, perhaps
for good reason, but the publicity and instant reaction over any little
thing is not a good thing. Rumor was enough to yank Basso and Ullrich
last year (which happened to be a good thing), but I think that set a
very bad precedent. And, since when is a rider presumed totally guilty
after the "A" sample tests positive? The system is built with some
safeguards, and one of those is that the "B" sample must also test
positive for a rider to be found guilty. This protocol is now completely
irrelevant, as Cristian Moreni was pulled after only his "A" sample
tested positive.

Not irrelevant. Moreni admitted guilt and did not ask for his B sample to
be tested. But Vino denies guilt and has asked for a B sample test.

This isn't simple. If Vino had been allowed to continue to race, it would
have affected tactics for everyone else. But it's tough on Kloeden
(assuming he wasn't also involved). And it very is tough in Vino if that
was a false positive.

Excluding a whole team because of one rider's doping seems harsh to me, but
pragmatically it also seems more likely to be effective than anything
else. It means the riders on a team are motivated to police one another,
and omerta should die.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Do not sail on uphill water.
- Bill Lee

in message , steve
') wrote:

On 26-Jul-2007, smacked up and reeling, "J Jones"
blindly formulated
the following incoherence:

Because he was leading the tour (every team's desire), was at the top of
his
game (every team's desire), and tested negative 17 times (again, every
team's desire). Someone says "I saw him in Italy" and he's sacked,
simple

as that? No way. There's more here than is being reported.

I believe Phil L. reported that Rasmussen admitted to lying about his
whereabouts once he was confronted with that statement. That would
explain it.

Phil L. reported that Theo de Rooij said that Rasmussen admitted lying.
That's a slightly different chain of evidence.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; this is not a .sig

in message , J Jones
') wrote:

Common sense. I'm offering no proof, just a common sense view of this
situation. Hard to imagine someone getting canned for 1 single incident
of
their integrity coming into question. Especially, if it's based on
someone
else's comment that "hey, I saw him in Italy". It just doesn't make any
sense to me that his whereabouts would be enough to ****can him while
he's
leading the tour. Would that be enough for you to fire an employee who
was performing at the absolute top of his game?

Well, there isn't just "I saw him in Italy." There's also the shoebox
story, which, again, is one man's word against another, but doesn't smell
good (hey, used cycling shoes often don't). And missing getting his
whereabouts forms in in time - which I can completely understand, I'm
often fined for getting tax forms in late - can also be seen in a very
dubious light, in the current atmosphere of suspicion.

Having said that, I haven't yet seen enough evidence against Rasmussen to
condemn him; on the evidence we've seen so far, I still think his sacking
is outrageous. That doesn't mean there isn't other evidence we haven't
seen.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Due to financial constraints, the light at the end of the tunnel
has been switched off.

Montesquiou wrote:

I think the conspirecy theories are getting way out of hand here.

No doubt that there is a conflict between ASO and the UCI - it has
been going on for years.
Rasmussens warnings are not the reason for the war, the ASO just used
it as a convinient bullet in their ammunitionchamber and was
wendensday night appointed a victory the the most recent battle.

Correct !
It is what Patrice Clerc said yesterday.
http://jt.france2.fr/20h/index-fr.php?jt=0&start=493

http://jt.france2.fr/20h/index-fr.php?jt=0&start=603

No doubt that UCI want to take control of the TDF by discrediting ASO.
UCI was aware about Rasmussen Mexican (Italian or whatever) trip and the
no-control.

Speculating that the UCI/DCU knew Rasmussen was in Italy and not in
Mexico between 4th. juni and 12th of june as his whereabouts states is
just plain rediculous. Between 4th of june and 11th of june the UCI
asumed that Rasmussen was in Italy, rightfully, since they did't recive
Rasmussens changed scedule until 11th of june.

It's just as stupid as saying when ASO invited Astana they purpusly
disregarded UCI's public warnings against Astana (especially
against Vinokurov's connection to dr Ferrari in addition to the
connection to Fuentes and Saiz.)

Acording to current rules the ASO couldn't deny Unibet participating
in this years TDF. It's apperant that ASO are by the use of the press
trying to make the UCI cave in and bend the current UCI rulesset. It's
a powerstrugle between the two major orgazitions in cycling.

But THEY DID NOT SAID IT to ASO BEFORE. Why ????

ASO has no juristiction in doping controls, only WADA, UCI, national
federations and their corosponding antidoping agencies has. If an
athlete comply according to current rules UCI can't do anything,
Michal Rasmussen did comply.

ASO is just another race organizer, argualbly by far the welthiest and
most powerfull one - even big enough to take on the UCI, witch they've
proved by going for Rasmussens throat, denying the participation of
Unibet and supporting Astana.

The Danish federation (aware of it MONTH BEFORE) also said nothing BEFORE.

Bull****, the danish federation contated UCI and Rabobank after
issuing their warning on jun 28th. By anyone the danish federation and
and the danish press has been Rasmussens most insistent critics.

They expected Ras to have the yellow for to declare " Oh guy, I forget to
tell you that he missed some control ...."
And now we are in this mess.

He didn't miss more controls than what's allowed under current UCI and
WADA rules.

Well done UCI

You mean well done Dr. Fearari. 2:1 over Dr. Fuentes after having
Cechini's candidates expeld last year. Dr. Ferari is still the most
successfull kingmaker in TDF.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) http://blog.reippuert.dk

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

J Jones wrote:
There is no way possible that this single instance of Ras declaring he was
in Mexico is the only thing going on here. There has to be other instances
of Ras's credibility coming into question. Plus, there has to be more
evidence that he's been doping. Hard to imagine that team leaders and
sponsors would ****-can him based on 1) a single questionable instance of
his integrity, and 2) one person's "I saw him in Italy" comment.
Jeff

They ditched him because of pressure from the ASO, and only after ASO
started applying pressure directly on the sponsor. Rabobank tried
saving him, but the the sponsor anallyzed press's response to tuesdays
pressconference and decided to dump him. The Casani testamoninal was
the perfect escapepod.

The main reason for the Rasmussen-case exploding durring TDF, was that
he turned ou to be the most convinient bullet yet in ASO's war against
UCI. CSC's pressagent today says to dansish newspaper poltikken, that
Rabobank did just about everyhing wrong in their attempt to contain
the story. He claims that if Rabobank had just held a pressconference
publicing the warnings and the exlusion from the dansih national team
there wouldn't have been a case. I tend to agree.

Saying that, i think that Rasmussen was in Italy working with a one of
Conconi's workbees from the Ferrara university - weather the team
knew about it i don't know.
Officialy the team has had rules tha prevent their riders to work with
other doctors than the official teamdoctors. Its an outcome of last
years TDF where young Thomas Dekker was heavyly criticied for working
with Luigi Ceccini. Back then Rabobank pulled him from the startlist
because of the Ceccini connection.

Funny enogh the ASO seem to turn their blind eye to the fact that
Evans and Leipheimer are still clients of Dr. Michele Ferrari, the most
prominent student of Francesco Conconi.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) http://blog.reippuert.dk

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

"Morten Reippuert Knudsen" a écrit dans le message de
news: ...
Montesquiou wrote:

I think the conspirecy theories are getting way out of hand here.

No doubt that there is a conflict between ASO and the UCI - it has
been going on for years.
Rasmussens warnings are not the reason for the war, the ASO just used
it as a convinient bullet in their ammunitionchamber and was
wendensday night appointed a victory the the most recent battle.

I agree !

Correct !
It is what Patrice Clerc said yesterday.
http://jt.france2.fr/20h/index-fr.php?jt=0&start=493

http://jt.france2.fr/20h/index-fr.php?jt=0&start=603

No doubt that UCI want to take control of the TDF by discrediting ASO.
UCI was aware about Rasmussen Mexican (Italian or whatever) trip and the
no-control.

Speculating that the UCI/DCU knew Rasmussen was in Italy and not in
Mexico between 4th. juni and 12th of june as his whereabouts states is
just plain rediculous.

Sorry if I expressed in a wrong way : It is the fact that he "missed some
control" and not that he was in Italy.
If ASO were aware of it (missing control), they whould have banned Ras.
According do Prudhomme the agreement between UCI and ASO is "a frank and
open contact, no one concealing any information". ASO complain that UCI
willfully concealed this information.


Between 4th of june and 11th of june the UCI
asumed that Rasmussen was in Italy, rightfully, since they did't recive
Rasmussens changed scedule until 11th of june.

It's just as stupid as saying when ASO invited Astana they purpusly
disregarded UCI's public warnings against Astana (especially
against Vinokurov's connection to dr Ferrari in addition to the
connection to Fuentes and Saiz.)

Acording to current rules the ASO couldn't deny Unibet participating
in this years TDF. It's apperant that ASO are by the use of the press
trying to make the UCI cave in and bend the current UCI rulesset. It's
a powerstrugle between the two major orgazitions in cycling.

ASO explain it in the link I gave : He says that there is not DIRECT CONTACT
between Vino and Fuentes.
If the name of Vino is in the process, it is not as Client of Fuentes.
Indeed I read here and there that the TDF don't follow any "présomption
d'innocence"... Now ASO must be accused of the opposit ?

But THEY DID NOT SAID IT to ASO BEFORE. Why ????

ASO has no juristiction in doping controls, only WADA, UCI, national
federations and their corosponding antidoping agencies has. If an
athlete comply according to current rules UCI can't do anything,
Michal Rasmussen did comply.

See my answer above. ASO don't want any juridiction, just all the
informations on all the ridders in order to decide if they can (or cannot)
be invited in the TDF

ASO is just another race organizer, argualbly by far the welthiest and
most powerfull one - even big enough to take on the UCI, witch they've
proved by going for Rasmussens throat, denying the participation of
Unibet and supporting Astana.

The Danish federation (aware of it MONTH BEFORE) also said nothing
BEFORE.

Bull****, the danish federation contated UCI and Rabobank after
issuing their warning on jun 28th. By anyone the danish federation and
and the danish press has been Rasmussens most insistent critics.

They expected Ras to have the yellow for to declare " Oh guy, I forget to
tell you that he missed some control ...."
And now we are in this mess.

He didn't miss more controls than what's allowed under current UCI and
WADA rules.


The Danish federation attitude was unfair ( as the UCI). They had
informations on Ras they could have transmited to ASO also.
Yes, I know, they were not obliged to do it. It is why I say it is unfair.
Plus the fact they expected Ras to be in yellow (mont after) for to inform
the press about it !!!
No doubt that it was on purpose


Well done UCI

You mean well done Dr. Fearari. 2:1 over Dr. Fuentes after having
Cechini's candidates expeld last year. Dr. Ferari is still the most
successfull kingmaker in TDF.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) http://blog.reippuert.dk

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

Morten Reippuert Knudsen wrote:
Funny enogh the ASO seem to turn their blind eye to the fact that
Evans and Leipheimer are still clients of Dr. Michele Ferrari, the most
prominent student of Francesco Conconi.

So now you have to pass a Conconi test before you can ride.