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Yikes! Di2



 
 
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  #101  
Old December 28th 19, 12:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Yikes! Di2

On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 at 8:11:25 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Tom Kunich writes:

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 1:37:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Chalo writes:

jbeattie wrote:

https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk
20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.

I've gotten those for 8 and 9 speed bikes. Microshift makes some too,
costlier but not obviously better. None of the new crop has a
friction option, which is vexing when you could otherwise have
anything from 7 to 11 gears on the same hub spacing.

(Friction shifting 10 or 11 sounds awful if you know which gear you
want. Maybe not so bad if you don't mind some randomness.)

Now that almost all frames come with easy-to-replace,
even-easier-to-bend derailleur hangers, having a manual override for
indexing seems more important than it was back when we had it. Also,
Shimano no longer want to commit to a single cable pull ratio for all
their derailleurs (apparently for the sole purpose of making some
parts of their product line incompatible with others). That's not
really a problem for friction shifting.

The natural development of shift-by-wire will be that the cable pull
ratio will not even be the same for a single derailleur. Each gear
change will have its own requirement for cable pull. Once the
derailleurs have CANBus connectors, they'll be able to tell the shifters
what they need ...


That isn't the way it works.

The stem unit simply orders a shift up or down. In each derailleur
there is a micro-processor that could theoretically either set the
spacing or even detect a misalignment and correct for it. This would
be relatively easy with a simple audio or vibrational hookup.


I see. Thanks for that.

The "gear centering" adjustment is nothing more than the starting
position of the rear derailleur.

But since you want the lowest possible energy drain on the battery the
easiest method is to use equal-distance spacing.


It's not clear to me that equal spacing will always result in lowest
battery drain.


Irregular spacing requires a program that will search for the gear you're in and so the distance to the next gear up or down. Equally spaced it only has to move X steps.

I found a CHEAP set of almost new Fulcrum wheels. They are actually tubeless as well if I decide to run them like that. But since I had a set of 25 mm Gatorskins I am running them as clinchers. The tires did mount quite a bit easier than tubeless tires do, so that is an advantage. The disadvantage is that you can't run good tires on California roads unless they're tubeless..

So, I mounted the new tires and moved the disks from the Campagnolo wheels which are only 10 speeds and since they have loose bearings in them I took them apart to see if I could change the Freehub and make them 11 speed. But nope and it was a real bear getting loose bearings back into a wheel.

With the 11 speed wheels with new tires and disks mounted, I put them on the Redline. Then I went about mounting everything: Left and Right levers, Front and rear derailleurs. New shoes in the hydraulic brakes and mounted them. Stem electronic unit. That takes three hands so I had to have my wife loan me one of hers. I mounted the new under-BB electronic connector and finally mounted the external battery mount which goes on beneath the water bottle mount. So the only thing left to do is to install the hydraulic hoses to front and rear brakes and bleed them and to measure and order the wiring for the left and right lever to the stem unit, then stem h unit to the under BB connector and from there to the battery mount, and the front and rear derailleur. The battery and charger will be here in a couple of days. The set-up appears to be dead simple.

Actually this is going to be a test platform since I intend to move everything over to a Trek setup if I like it.

The setup I have is different from the latest Di2 and none of the front derailleur will only work with the stem unit if I understand people correctly.

I would like to know if anyone has used the "single connector levers" and all the rest and if they had any real problems with them.

Ads
  #102  
Old December 28th 19, 09:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 779
Default Yikes! Di2

On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:57:37 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 at 8:11:25 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Tom Kunich writes:

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 1:37:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Chalo writes:

jbeattie wrote:

https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk
20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.

I've gotten those for 8 and 9 speed bikes. Microshift makes some too,
costlier but not obviously better. None of the new crop has a
friction option, which is vexing when you could otherwise have
anything from 7 to 11 gears on the same hub spacing.

(Friction shifting 10 or 11 sounds awful if you know which gear you
want. Maybe not so bad if you don't mind some randomness.)

Now that almost all frames come with easy-to-replace,
even-easier-to-bend derailleur hangers, having a manual override for
indexing seems more important than it was back when we had it. Also,
Shimano no longer want to commit to a single cable pull ratio for all
their derailleurs (apparently for the sole purpose of making some
parts of their product line incompatible with others). That's not
really a problem for friction shifting.

The natural development of shift-by-wire will be that the cable pull
ratio will not even be the same for a single derailleur. Each gear
change will have its own requirement for cable pull. Once the
derailleurs have CANBus connectors, they'll be able to tell the shifters
what they need ...

That isn't the way it works.

The stem unit simply orders a shift up or down. In each derailleur
there is a micro-processor that could theoretically either set the
spacing or even detect a misalignment and correct for it. This would
be relatively easy with a simple audio or vibrational hookup.


I see. Thanks for that.

The "gear centering" adjustment is nothing more than the starting
position of the rear derailleur.

But since you want the lowest possible energy drain on the battery the
easiest method is to use equal-distance spacing.


It's not clear to me that equal spacing will always result in lowest
battery drain.


Irregular spacing requires a program that will search for the gear you're in and so the distance to the next gear up or down. Equally spaced it only has to move X steps.

I found a CHEAP set of almost new Fulcrum wheels. They are actually tubeless as well if I decide to run them like that. But since I had a set of 25 mm Gatorskins I am running them as clinchers. The tires did mount quite a bit easier than tubeless tires do, so that is an advantage. The disadvantage is that you can't run good tires on California roads unless they're tubeless.

So, I mounted the new tires and moved the disks from the Campagnolo wheels which are only 10 speeds and since they have loose bearings in them I took them apart to see if I could change the Freehub and make them 11 speed. But nope and it was a real bear getting loose bearings back into a wheel.

With the 11 speed wheels with new tires and disks mounted, I put them on the Redline. Then I went about mounting everything: Left and Right levers, Front and rear derailleurs. New shoes in the hydraulic brakes and mounted them. Stem electronic unit. That takes three hands so I had to have my wife loan me one of hers. I mounted the new under-BB electronic connector and finally mounted the external battery mount which goes on beneath the water bottle mount. So the only thing left to do is to install the hydraulic hoses to front and rear brakes and bleed them and to measure and order the wiring for the left and right lever to the stem unit, then stem h unit to the under BB connector and from there to the battery mount, and the front and rear derailleur. The battery and charger will be here in a couple of days. The set-up appears to be dead simple.

Actually this is going to be a test platform since I intend to move everything over to a Trek setup if I like it.

The setup I have is different from the latest Di2 and none of the front derailleur will only work with the stem unit if I understand people correctly.

I would like to know if anyone has used the "single connector levers" and all the rest and if they had any real problems with them.


Like I already mentioned I run the same setup for 6 years now on my cross bike without any issues. The only difference is that my wires are routed internally which in principle is the same.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tbwDHPtp6J3z2nw8A

Lou
  #103  
Old December 29th 19, 06:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Yikes! Di2

On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:09:38 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:57:37 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 at 8:11:25 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Tom Kunich writes:

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 1:37:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Chalo writes:

jbeattie wrote:

https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk
20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.

I've gotten those for 8 and 9 speed bikes. Microshift makes some too,
costlier but not obviously better. None of the new crop has a
friction option, which is vexing when you could otherwise have
anything from 7 to 11 gears on the same hub spacing.

(Friction shifting 10 or 11 sounds awful if you know which gear you
want. Maybe not so bad if you don't mind some randomness.)

Now that almost all frames come with easy-to-replace,
even-easier-to-bend derailleur hangers, having a manual override for
indexing seems more important than it was back when we had it. Also,
Shimano no longer want to commit to a single cable pull ratio for all
their derailleurs (apparently for the sole purpose of making some
parts of their product line incompatible with others). That's not
really a problem for friction shifting.

The natural development of shift-by-wire will be that the cable pull
ratio will not even be the same for a single derailleur. Each gear
change will have its own requirement for cable pull. Once the
derailleurs have CANBus connectors, they'll be able to tell the shifters
what they need ...

That isn't the way it works.

The stem unit simply orders a shift up or down. In each derailleur
there is a micro-processor that could theoretically either set the
spacing or even detect a misalignment and correct for it. This would
be relatively easy with a simple audio or vibrational hookup.

I see. Thanks for that.

The "gear centering" adjustment is nothing more than the starting
position of the rear derailleur.

But since you want the lowest possible energy drain on the battery the
easiest method is to use equal-distance spacing.

It's not clear to me that equal spacing will always result in lowest
battery drain.


Irregular spacing requires a program that will search for the gear you're in and so the distance to the next gear up or down. Equally spaced it only has to move X steps.

I found a CHEAP set of almost new Fulcrum wheels. They are actually tubeless as well if I decide to run them like that. But since I had a set of 25 mm Gatorskins I am running them as clinchers. The tires did mount quite a bit easier than tubeless tires do, so that is an advantage. The disadvantage is that you can't run good tires on California roads unless they're tubeless.

So, I mounted the new tires and moved the disks from the Campagnolo wheels which are only 10 speeds and since they have loose bearings in them I took them apart to see if I could change the Freehub and make them 11 speed. But nope and it was a real bear getting loose bearings back into a wheel.

With the 11 speed wheels with new tires and disks mounted, I put them on the Redline. Then I went about mounting everything: Left and Right levers, Front and rear derailleurs. New shoes in the hydraulic brakes and mounted them. Stem electronic unit. That takes three hands so I had to have my wife loan me one of hers. I mounted the new under-BB electronic connector and finally mounted the external battery mount which goes on beneath the water bottle mount. So the only thing left to do is to install the hydraulic hoses to front and rear brakes and bleed them and to measure and order the wiring for the left and right lever to the stem unit, then stem h unit to the under BB connector and from there to the battery mount, and the front and rear derailleur. The battery and charger will be here in a couple of days. The set-up appears to be dead simple.

Actually this is going to be a test platform since I intend to move everything over to a Trek setup if I like it.

The setup I have is different from the latest Di2 and none of the front derailleur will only work with the stem unit if I understand people correctly.

I would like to know if anyone has used the "single connector levers" and all the rest and if they had any real problems with them.


Like I already mentioned I run the same setup for 6 years now on my cross bike without any issues. The only difference is that my wires are routed internally which in principle is the same.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tbwDHPtp6J3z2nw8A

Lou


Thanks Lou. Where does the Stem Unit mount on the internal wiring setup? Is it in the stem like mine and the only internal stuff is the wiring and the battery?
  #104  
Old December 29th 19, 09:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 779
Default Yikes! Di2

On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 7:16:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:09:38 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:57:37 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 at 8:11:25 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Tom Kunich writes:

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 1:37:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Chalo writes:

jbeattie wrote:

https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk
20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.

I've gotten those for 8 and 9 speed bikes. Microshift makes some too,
costlier but not obviously better. None of the new crop has a
friction option, which is vexing when you could otherwise have
anything from 7 to 11 gears on the same hub spacing.

(Friction shifting 10 or 11 sounds awful if you know which gear you
want. Maybe not so bad if you don't mind some randomness.)

Now that almost all frames come with easy-to-replace,
even-easier-to-bend derailleur hangers, having a manual override for
indexing seems more important than it was back when we had it. Also,
Shimano no longer want to commit to a single cable pull ratio for all
their derailleurs (apparently for the sole purpose of making some
parts of their product line incompatible with others). That's not
really a problem for friction shifting.

The natural development of shift-by-wire will be that the cable pull
ratio will not even be the same for a single derailleur. Each gear
change will have its own requirement for cable pull. Once the
derailleurs have CANBus connectors, they'll be able to tell the shifters
what they need ...

That isn't the way it works.

The stem unit simply orders a shift up or down. In each derailleur
there is a micro-processor that could theoretically either set the
spacing or even detect a misalignment and correct for it. This would
be relatively easy with a simple audio or vibrational hookup.

I see. Thanks for that.

The "gear centering" adjustment is nothing more than the starting
position of the rear derailleur.

But since you want the lowest possible energy drain on the battery the
easiest method is to use equal-distance spacing.

It's not clear to me that equal spacing will always result in lowest
battery drain.

Irregular spacing requires a program that will search for the gear you're in and so the distance to the next gear up or down. Equally spaced it only has to move X steps.

I found a CHEAP set of almost new Fulcrum wheels. They are actually tubeless as well if I decide to run them like that. But since I had a set of 25 mm Gatorskins I am running them as clinchers. The tires did mount quite a bit easier than tubeless tires do, so that is an advantage. The disadvantage is that you can't run good tires on California roads unless they're tubeless.

So, I mounted the new tires and moved the disks from the Campagnolo wheels which are only 10 speeds and since they have loose bearings in them I took them apart to see if I could change the Freehub and make them 11 speed. But nope and it was a real bear getting loose bearings back into a wheel..

With the 11 speed wheels with new tires and disks mounted, I put them on the Redline. Then I went about mounting everything: Left and Right levers, Front and rear derailleurs. New shoes in the hydraulic brakes and mounted them. Stem electronic unit. That takes three hands so I had to have my wife loan me one of hers. I mounted the new under-BB electronic connector and finally mounted the external battery mount which goes on beneath the water bottle mount. So the only thing left to do is to install the hydraulic hoses to front and rear brakes and bleed them and to measure and order the wiring for the left and right lever to the stem unit, then stem h unit to the under BB connector and from there to the battery mount, and the front and rear derailleur. The battery and charger will be here in a couple of days. The set-up appears to be dead simple.

Actually this is going to be a test platform since I intend to move everything over to a Trek setup if I like it.

The setup I have is different from the latest Di2 and none of the front derailleur will only work with the stem unit if I understand people correctly.

I would like to know if anyone has used the "single connector levers" and all the rest and if they had any real problems with them.


Like I already mentioned I run the same setup for 6 years now on my cross bike without any issues. The only difference is that my wires are routed internally which in principle is the same.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tbwDHPtp6J3z2nw8A

Lou


Thanks Lou. Where does the Stem Unit mount on the internal wiring setup? Is it in the stem like mine and the only internal stuff is the wiring and the battery?


The stem unit is the same for internal wired Di2 systems and is mounted under the stem with a rubber band. Since 1-2 years you can get a 'stem' unit (junction box A) that mounts in the bar end of the handlebar or on the down tube of the frame:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...or-Di2-p53775/

Internal wiring means wires, battery and junction box B (BB unit) are internal. Some frames and handlebars have possibilities for even more internal wiring.

Lou
  #105  
Old January 1st 20, 06:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Yikes! Di2

On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 1:33:45 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 7:16:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:09:38 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:57:37 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 at 8:11:25 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Tom Kunich writes:

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 1:37:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Chalo writes:

jbeattie wrote:

https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk
20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.

I've gotten those for 8 and 9 speed bikes. Microshift makes some too,
costlier but not obviously better. None of the new crop has a
friction option, which is vexing when you could otherwise have
anything from 7 to 11 gears on the same hub spacing.

(Friction shifting 10 or 11 sounds awful if you know which gear you
want. Maybe not so bad if you don't mind some randomness.)

Now that almost all frames come with easy-to-replace,
even-easier-to-bend derailleur hangers, having a manual override for
indexing seems more important than it was back when we had it. Also,
Shimano no longer want to commit to a single cable pull ratio for all
their derailleurs (apparently for the sole purpose of making some
parts of their product line incompatible with others). That's not
really a problem for friction shifting.

The natural development of shift-by-wire will be that the cable pull
ratio will not even be the same for a single derailleur. Each gear
change will have its own requirement for cable pull. Once the
derailleurs have CANBus connectors, they'll be able to tell the shifters
what they need ...

That isn't the way it works.

The stem unit simply orders a shift up or down. In each derailleur
there is a micro-processor that could theoretically either set the
spacing or even detect a misalignment and correct for it. This would
be relatively easy with a simple audio or vibrational hookup.

I see. Thanks for that.

The "gear centering" adjustment is nothing more than the starting
position of the rear derailleur.

But since you want the lowest possible energy drain on the battery the
easiest method is to use equal-distance spacing.

It's not clear to me that equal spacing will always result in lowest
battery drain.

Irregular spacing requires a program that will search for the gear you're in and so the distance to the next gear up or down. Equally spaced it only has to move X steps.

I found a CHEAP set of almost new Fulcrum wheels. They are actually tubeless as well if I decide to run them like that. But since I had a set of 25 mm Gatorskins I am running them as clinchers. The tires did mount quite a bit easier than tubeless tires do, so that is an advantage. The disadvantage is that you can't run good tires on California roads unless they're tubeless.

So, I mounted the new tires and moved the disks from the Campagnolo wheels which are only 10 speeds and since they have loose bearings in them I took them apart to see if I could change the Freehub and make them 11 speed. But nope and it was a real bear getting loose bearings back into a wheel.

With the 11 speed wheels with new tires and disks mounted, I put them on the Redline. Then I went about mounting everything: Left and Right levers, Front and rear derailleurs. New shoes in the hydraulic brakes and mounted them. Stem electronic unit. That takes three hands so I had to have my wife loan me one of hers. I mounted the new under-BB electronic connector and finally mounted the external battery mount which goes on beneath the water bottle mount. So the only thing left to do is to install the hydraulic hoses to front and rear brakes and bleed them and to measure and order the wiring for the left and right lever to the stem unit, then stem h unit to the under BB connector and from there to the battery mount, and the front and rear derailleur. The battery and charger will be here in a couple of days.. The set-up appears to be dead simple.

Actually this is going to be a test platform since I intend to move everything over to a Trek setup if I like it.

The setup I have is different from the latest Di2 and none of the front derailleur will only work with the stem unit if I understand people correctly.

I would like to know if anyone has used the "single connector levers" and all the rest and if they had any real problems with them.

Like I already mentioned I run the same setup for 6 years now on my cross bike without any issues. The only difference is that my wires are routed internally which in principle is the same.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tbwDHPtp6J3z2nw8A

Lou


Thanks Lou. Where does the Stem Unit mount on the internal wiring setup? Is it in the stem like mine and the only internal stuff is the wiring and the battery?


The stem unit is the same for internal wired Di2 systems and is mounted under the stem with a rubber band. Since 1-2 years you can get a 'stem' unit (junction box A) that mounts in the bar end of the handlebar or on the down tube of the frame:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...or-Di2-p53775/

Internal wiring means wires, battery and junction box B (BB unit) are internal. Some frames and handlebars have possibilities for even more internal wiring.

Lou


I swear, I could lose my left foot. I got the battery in and can't find the charger that I also received. I want to make sure that the battery is fully charged before installing it since the wiring harness is due.

Then since I don't know if the wiring harness includes wire covers I might have to order those as well. What a pain getting the initial setup correct.
  #106  
Old January 1st 20, 06:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Yikes! Di2

On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 1:33:45 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 7:16:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:09:38 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:57:37 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 at 8:11:25 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Tom Kunich writes:

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 1:37:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Chalo writes:

jbeattie wrote:

https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk
20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.

I've gotten those for 8 and 9 speed bikes. Microshift makes some too,
costlier but not obviously better. None of the new crop has a
friction option, which is vexing when you could otherwise have
anything from 7 to 11 gears on the same hub spacing.

(Friction shifting 10 or 11 sounds awful if you know which gear you
want. Maybe not so bad if you don't mind some randomness.)

Now that almost all frames come with easy-to-replace,
even-easier-to-bend derailleur hangers, having a manual override for
indexing seems more important than it was back when we had it. Also,
Shimano no longer want to commit to a single cable pull ratio for all
their derailleurs (apparently for the sole purpose of making some
parts of their product line incompatible with others). That's not
really a problem for friction shifting.

The natural development of shift-by-wire will be that the cable pull
ratio will not even be the same for a single derailleur. Each gear
change will have its own requirement for cable pull. Once the
derailleurs have CANBus connectors, they'll be able to tell the shifters
what they need ...

That isn't the way it works.

The stem unit simply orders a shift up or down. In each derailleur
there is a micro-processor that could theoretically either set the
spacing or even detect a misalignment and correct for it. This would
be relatively easy with a simple audio or vibrational hookup.

I see. Thanks for that.

The "gear centering" adjustment is nothing more than the starting
position of the rear derailleur.

But since you want the lowest possible energy drain on the battery the
easiest method is to use equal-distance spacing.

It's not clear to me that equal spacing will always result in lowest
battery drain.

Irregular spacing requires a program that will search for the gear you're in and so the distance to the next gear up or down. Equally spaced it only has to move X steps.

I found a CHEAP set of almost new Fulcrum wheels. They are actually tubeless as well if I decide to run them like that. But since I had a set of 25 mm Gatorskins I am running them as clinchers. The tires did mount quite a bit easier than tubeless tires do, so that is an advantage. The disadvantage is that you can't run good tires on California roads unless they're tubeless.

So, I mounted the new tires and moved the disks from the Campagnolo wheels which are only 10 speeds and since they have loose bearings in them I took them apart to see if I could change the Freehub and make them 11 speed. But nope and it was a real bear getting loose bearings back into a wheel.

With the 11 speed wheels with new tires and disks mounted, I put them on the Redline. Then I went about mounting everything: Left and Right levers, Front and rear derailleurs. New shoes in the hydraulic brakes and mounted them. Stem electronic unit. That takes three hands so I had to have my wife loan me one of hers. I mounted the new under-BB electronic connector and finally mounted the external battery mount which goes on beneath the water bottle mount. So the only thing left to do is to install the hydraulic hoses to front and rear brakes and bleed them and to measure and order the wiring for the left and right lever to the stem unit, then stem h unit to the under BB connector and from there to the battery mount, and the front and rear derailleur. The battery and charger will be here in a couple of days.. The set-up appears to be dead simple.

Actually this is going to be a test platform since I intend to move everything over to a Trek setup if I like it.

The setup I have is different from the latest Di2 and none of the front derailleur will only work with the stem unit if I understand people correctly.

I would like to know if anyone has used the "single connector levers" and all the rest and if they had any real problems with them.

Like I already mentioned I run the same setup for 6 years now on my cross bike without any issues. The only difference is that my wires are routed internally which in principle is the same.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tbwDHPtp6J3z2nw8A

Lou


Thanks Lou. Where does the Stem Unit mount on the internal wiring setup? Is it in the stem like mine and the only internal stuff is the wiring and the battery?


The stem unit is the same for internal wired Di2 systems and is mounted under the stem with a rubber band. Since 1-2 years you can get a 'stem' unit (junction box A) that mounts in the bar end of the handlebar or on the down tube of the frame:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...or-Di2-p53775/

Internal wiring means wires, battery and junction box B (BB unit) are internal. Some frames and handlebars have possibilities for even more internal wiring.

Lou


Do you know what any improvement was between the older Di2 and the newer models? I can't see why adding "sprint shifters" would be anything that could be called an improvement to anyone but a pro sprinter.
  #107  
Old January 1st 20, 08:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,830
Default Yikes! Di2

On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 10:52:05 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 1:33:45 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 7:16:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:09:38 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:57:37 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 at 8:11:25 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Tom Kunich writes:

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 1:37:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Chalo writes:

jbeattie wrote:

https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk
20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.

I've gotten those for 8 and 9 speed bikes. Microshift makes some too,
costlier but not obviously better. None of the new crop has a
friction option, which is vexing when you could otherwise have
anything from 7 to 11 gears on the same hub spacing.

(Friction shifting 10 or 11 sounds awful if you know which gear you
want. Maybe not so bad if you don't mind some randomness.)

Now that almost all frames come with easy-to-replace,
even-easier-to-bend derailleur hangers, having a manual override for
indexing seems more important than it was back when we had it. Also,
Shimano no longer want to commit to a single cable pull ratio for all
their derailleurs (apparently for the sole purpose of making some
parts of their product line incompatible with others). That's not
really a problem for friction shifting.

The natural development of shift-by-wire will be that the cable pull
ratio will not even be the same for a single derailleur. Each gear
change will have its own requirement for cable pull. Once the
derailleurs have CANBus connectors, they'll be able to tell the shifters
what they need ...

That isn't the way it works.

The stem unit simply orders a shift up or down. In each derailleur
there is a micro-processor that could theoretically either set the
spacing or even detect a misalignment and correct for it. This would
be relatively easy with a simple audio or vibrational hookup.

I see. Thanks for that.

The "gear centering" adjustment is nothing more than the starting
position of the rear derailleur.

But since you want the lowest possible energy drain on the battery the
easiest method is to use equal-distance spacing.

It's not clear to me that equal spacing will always result in lowest
battery drain.

Irregular spacing requires a program that will search for the gear you're in and so the distance to the next gear up or down. Equally spaced it only has to move X steps.

I found a CHEAP set of almost new Fulcrum wheels. They are actually tubeless as well if I decide to run them like that. But since I had a set of 25 mm Gatorskins I am running them as clinchers. The tires did mount quite a bit easier than tubeless tires do, so that is an advantage. The disadvantage is that you can't run good tires on California roads unless they're tubeless.

So, I mounted the new tires and moved the disks from the Campagnolo wheels which are only 10 speeds and since they have loose bearings in them I took them apart to see if I could change the Freehub and make them 11 speed. But nope and it was a real bear getting loose bearings back into a wheel.

With the 11 speed wheels with new tires and disks mounted, I put them on the Redline. Then I went about mounting everything: Left and Right levers, Front and rear derailleurs. New shoes in the hydraulic brakes and mounted them. Stem electronic unit. That takes three hands so I had to have my wife loan me one of hers. I mounted the new under-BB electronic connector and finally mounted the external battery mount which goes on beneath the water bottle mount. So the only thing left to do is to install the hydraulic hoses to front and rear brakes and bleed them and to measure and order the wiring for the left and right lever to the stem unit, then stem h unit to the under BB connector and from there to the battery mount, and the front and rear derailleur. The battery and charger will be here in a couple of days. The set-up appears to be dead simple.

Actually this is going to be a test platform since I intend to move everything over to a Trek setup if I like it.

The setup I have is different from the latest Di2 and none of the front derailleur will only work with the stem unit if I understand people correctly.

I would like to know if anyone has used the "single connector levers" and all the rest and if they had any real problems with them.

Like I already mentioned I run the same setup for 6 years now on my cross bike without any issues. The only difference is that my wires are routed internally which in principle is the same.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tbwDHPtp6J3z2nw8A

Lou

Thanks Lou. Where does the Stem Unit mount on the internal wiring setup? Is it in the stem like mine and the only internal stuff is the wiring and the battery?


The stem unit is the same for internal wired Di2 systems and is mounted under the stem with a rubber band. Since 1-2 years you can get a 'stem' unit (junction box A) that mounts in the bar end of the handlebar or on the down tube of the frame:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...or-Di2-p53775/

Internal wiring means wires, battery and junction box B (BB unit) are internal. Some frames and handlebars have possibilities for even more internal wiring.

Lou


Do you know what any improvement was between the older Di2 and the newer models? I can't see why adding "sprint shifters" would be anything that could be called an improvement to anyone but a pro sprinter.


People like what they like. Sprinter shifters would be over-kill for me, and I could care less whether my Di2 levers have 1 output or three. I would like to side-step some of the anti-cross chaining shifting defaults, but I don't think they can be programmed out of my model. That is one change -- newer levers are more programmable, IIRC. With the hydro levers, the shape has changed a lot. Many people do not like the bull-horn levers you have and that I have on my gravel bike. I like them just fine, and I think people with bigger hands actually prefer them over the more svelt current levers, but the current hydro levers are basically indistinguishable from normal road levers.

--- Jay Beattie.
  #108  
Old January 1st 20, 09:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 779
Default Yikes! Di2

On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 9:49:36 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 10:52:05 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 1:33:45 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 7:16:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:09:38 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:57:37 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 at 8:11:25 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Tom Kunich writes:

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 1:37:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Chalo writes:

jbeattie wrote:

https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk
20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.

I've gotten those for 8 and 9 speed bikes. Microshift makes some too,
costlier but not obviously better. None of the new crop has a
friction option, which is vexing when you could otherwise have
anything from 7 to 11 gears on the same hub spacing.

(Friction shifting 10 or 11 sounds awful if you know which gear you
want. Maybe not so bad if you don't mind some randomness..)

Now that almost all frames come with easy-to-replace,
even-easier-to-bend derailleur hangers, having a manual override for
indexing seems more important than it was back when we had it. Also,
Shimano no longer want to commit to a single cable pull ratio for all
their derailleurs (apparently for the sole purpose of making some
parts of their product line incompatible with others). That's not
really a problem for friction shifting.

The natural development of shift-by-wire will be that the cable pull
ratio will not even be the same for a single derailleur. Each gear
change will have its own requirement for cable pull. Once the
derailleurs have CANBus connectors, they'll be able to tell the shifters
what they need ...

That isn't the way it works.

The stem unit simply orders a shift up or down. In each derailleur
there is a micro-processor that could theoretically either set the
spacing or even detect a misalignment and correct for it. This would
be relatively easy with a simple audio or vibrational hookup.

I see. Thanks for that.

The "gear centering" adjustment is nothing more than the starting
position of the rear derailleur.

But since you want the lowest possible energy drain on the battery the
easiest method is to use equal-distance spacing.

It's not clear to me that equal spacing will always result in lowest
battery drain.

Irregular spacing requires a program that will search for the gear you're in and so the distance to the next gear up or down. Equally spaced it only has to move X steps.

I found a CHEAP set of almost new Fulcrum wheels. They are actually tubeless as well if I decide to run them like that. But since I had a set of 25 mm Gatorskins I am running them as clinchers. The tires did mount quite a bit easier than tubeless tires do, so that is an advantage. The disadvantage is that you can't run good tires on California roads unless they're tubeless.

So, I mounted the new tires and moved the disks from the Campagnolo wheels which are only 10 speeds and since they have loose bearings in them I took them apart to see if I could change the Freehub and make them 11 speed. But nope and it was a real bear getting loose bearings back into a wheel.

With the 11 speed wheels with new tires and disks mounted, I put them on the Redline. Then I went about mounting everything: Left and Right levers, Front and rear derailleurs. New shoes in the hydraulic brakes and mounted them. Stem electronic unit. That takes three hands so I had to have my wife loan me one of hers. I mounted the new under-BB electronic connector and finally mounted the external battery mount which goes on beneath the water bottle mount. So the only thing left to do is to install the hydraulic hoses to front and rear brakes and bleed them and to measure and order the wiring for the left and right lever to the stem unit, then stem h unit to the under BB connector and from there to the battery mount, and the front and rear derailleur. The battery and charger will be here in a couple of days. The set-up appears to be dead simple.

Actually this is going to be a test platform since I intend to move everything over to a Trek setup if I like it.

The setup I have is different from the latest Di2 and none of the front derailleur will only work with the stem unit if I understand people correctly.

I would like to know if anyone has used the "single connector levers" and all the rest and if they had any real problems with them.

Like I already mentioned I run the same setup for 6 years now on my cross bike without any issues. The only difference is that my wires are routed internally which in principle is the same.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tbwDHPtp6J3z2nw8A

Lou

Thanks Lou. Where does the Stem Unit mount on the internal wiring setup? Is it in the stem like mine and the only internal stuff is the wiring and the battery?

The stem unit is the same for internal wired Di2 systems and is mounted under the stem with a rubber band. Since 1-2 years you can get a 'stem' unit (junction box A) that mounts in the bar end of the handlebar or on the down tube of the frame:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...or-Di2-p53775/

Internal wiring means wires, battery and junction box B (BB unit) are internal. Some frames and handlebars have possibilities for even more internal wiring.

Lou


Do you know what any improvement was between the older Di2 and the newer models? I can't see why adding "sprint shifters" would be anything that could be called an improvement to anyone but a pro sprinter.


People like what they like. Sprinter shifters would be over-kill for me, and I could care less whether my Di2 levers have 1 output or three. I would like to side-step some of the anti-cross chaining shifting defaults, but I don't think they can be programmed out of my model. That is one change -- newer levers are more programmable, IIRC. With the hydro levers, the shape has changed a lot. Many people do not like the bull-horn levers you have and that I have on my gravel bike. I like them just fine, and I think people with bigger hands actually prefer them over the more svelt current levers, but the current hydro levers are basically indistinguishable from normal road levers.

--- Jay Beattie.


I have the 'old' shifters on my cross bike and the new ones on my Aeroad. The old levers are fine on the cross bike but for my small hands I prefer the new ones. The new levers are indeed more programmable, but I left it in the default setting. The newer levers also have an extra button on the top of the hoods which can be programmed if you have a D-fly unit. I swipe through the data screens/map screen of my Garmin with them so I don't have to take my hands of the hoods for that. My Aeroad cams with sprinter switches but I will take them out the first time I cahnge the bar tape. I never use them.

Lou
  #109  
Old January 1st 20, 09:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 482
Default Yikes! Di2

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 9:46:36 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

Frank, How many people do you suppose there are left in the world
that use downtube shifters?


I see more bikes with downtube shifters at the shop than I do of all 11-speed bikes combined. These bikes are being used, which is why they come in for service.

I don't like using downtube shifters, which stay at about the same height off the ground no matter how tall the bike. (So for my bikes, they're way the hell down there somewhere.) But they are easily the most mechanically elegant shifters around, and the easiest to deal with from a service standpoint.

I prefer index thumbshifters with a friction option to any other shifters I've tried. I wish they were still made.


No insult intended but 11 speeds are new and since ALL of the upper end groups are now 11 speed and it is growing more and more difficult to get 10 speed or less parts you're not going to be seen fewer 11 speed bikes anytime soon.

What kind of shop employs you that has a sizeable clientele of downtube shifters?
  #110  
Old January 1st 20, 10:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 482
Default Yikes! Di2

On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 12:49:36 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 10:52:05 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 1:33:45 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 7:16:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:09:38 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, December 28, 2019 at 1:57:37 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 at 8:11:25 AM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Tom Kunich writes:

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 1:37:23 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
Chalo writes:

jbeattie wrote:

https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk
20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.

I've gotten those for 8 and 9 speed bikes. Microshift makes some too,
costlier but not obviously better. None of the new crop has a
friction option, which is vexing when you could otherwise have
anything from 7 to 11 gears on the same hub spacing.

(Friction shifting 10 or 11 sounds awful if you know which gear you
want. Maybe not so bad if you don't mind some randomness..)

Now that almost all frames come with easy-to-replace,
even-easier-to-bend derailleur hangers, having a manual override for
indexing seems more important than it was back when we had it. Also,
Shimano no longer want to commit to a single cable pull ratio for all
their derailleurs (apparently for the sole purpose of making some
parts of their product line incompatible with others). That's not
really a problem for friction shifting.

The natural development of shift-by-wire will be that the cable pull
ratio will not even be the same for a single derailleur. Each gear
change will have its own requirement for cable pull. Once the
derailleurs have CANBus connectors, they'll be able to tell the shifters
what they need ...

That isn't the way it works.

The stem unit simply orders a shift up or down. In each derailleur
there is a micro-processor that could theoretically either set the
spacing or even detect a misalignment and correct for it. This would
be relatively easy with a simple audio or vibrational hookup.

I see. Thanks for that.

The "gear centering" adjustment is nothing more than the starting
position of the rear derailleur.

But since you want the lowest possible energy drain on the battery the
easiest method is to use equal-distance spacing.

It's not clear to me that equal spacing will always result in lowest
battery drain.

Irregular spacing requires a program that will search for the gear you're in and so the distance to the next gear up or down. Equally spaced it only has to move X steps.

I found a CHEAP set of almost new Fulcrum wheels. They are actually tubeless as well if I decide to run them like that. But since I had a set of 25 mm Gatorskins I am running them as clinchers. The tires did mount quite a bit easier than tubeless tires do, so that is an advantage. The disadvantage is that you can't run good tires on California roads unless they're tubeless.

So, I mounted the new tires and moved the disks from the Campagnolo wheels which are only 10 speeds and since they have loose bearings in them I took them apart to see if I could change the Freehub and make them 11 speed. But nope and it was a real bear getting loose bearings back into a wheel.

With the 11 speed wheels with new tires and disks mounted, I put them on the Redline. Then I went about mounting everything: Left and Right levers, Front and rear derailleurs. New shoes in the hydraulic brakes and mounted them. Stem electronic unit. That takes three hands so I had to have my wife loan me one of hers. I mounted the new under-BB electronic connector and finally mounted the external battery mount which goes on beneath the water bottle mount. So the only thing left to do is to install the hydraulic hoses to front and rear brakes and bleed them and to measure and order the wiring for the left and right lever to the stem unit, then stem h unit to the under BB connector and from there to the battery mount, and the front and rear derailleur. The battery and charger will be here in a couple of days. The set-up appears to be dead simple.

Actually this is going to be a test platform since I intend to move everything over to a Trek setup if I like it.

The setup I have is different from the latest Di2 and none of the front derailleur will only work with the stem unit if I understand people correctly.

I would like to know if anyone has used the "single connector levers" and all the rest and if they had any real problems with them.

Like I already mentioned I run the same setup for 6 years now on my cross bike without any issues. The only difference is that my wires are routed internally which in principle is the same.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tbwDHPtp6J3z2nw8A

Lou

Thanks Lou. Where does the Stem Unit mount on the internal wiring setup? Is it in the stem like mine and the only internal stuff is the wiring and the battery?

The stem unit is the same for internal wired Di2 systems and is mounted under the stem with a rubber band. Since 1-2 years you can get a 'stem' unit (junction box A) that mounts in the bar end of the handlebar or on the down tube of the frame:
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Sh...or-Di2-p53775/

Internal wiring means wires, battery and junction box B (BB unit) are internal. Some frames and handlebars have possibilities for even more internal wiring.

Lou


Do you know what any improvement was between the older Di2 and the newer models? I can't see why adding "sprint shifters" would be anything that could be called an improvement to anyone but a pro sprinter.


People like what they like. Sprinter shifters would be over-kill for me, and I could care less whether my Di2 levers have 1 output or three. I would like to side-step some of the anti-cross chaining shifting defaults, but I don't think they can be programmed out of my model. That is one change -- newer levers are more programmable, IIRC. With the hydro levers, the shape has changed a lot. Many people do not like the bull-horn levers you have and that I have on my gravel bike. I like them just fine, and I think people with bigger hands actually prefer them over the more svelt current levers, but the current hydro levers are basically indistinguishable from normal road levers.

--- Jay Beattie.


And Lou - I haven't talked to anyone that "had trouble" with the older levers like mine. That's a bit different than the shop said. But then I believe that you have to get a lot of experience with the electronic Di2 to really understand them. After Lou's comments it struck me just how they operate and I really don't see any way of improving them.
 




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