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  #1  
Old November 19th 13, 05:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Graham
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Default Danger Danger!

I just received this in a news letter from the UK CTC of which I am a member:

"My colleagues and I are absolutely devastated with the shocking rate at which cyclists are dying on London’s roads. Six cyclists have died over the last two weeks, all of them in collisions with large vehicles, three of which were lorries. During this period, three pedestrians were also killed in collisions with lorries in London."

Graham.
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  #2  
Old November 19th 13, 09:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 12:47:50 PM UTC-5, Graham wrote:
I just received this in a news letter from the UK CTC of which I am a member:



"My colleagues and I are absolutely devastated with the shocking rate at which cyclists are dying on London’s roads. Six cyclists have died over the last two weeks, all of them in collisions with large vehicles, three of which were lorries. During this period, three pedestrians were also killed in collisions with lorries in London."


From what I can tell, a typical year in London has about 75 pedestrians killed, but fewer than 20 cyclists.
See http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...must-get-angry

"Less well known is that, mile for mile, it's more dangerous to be a pedestrian than it is to be a cyclist..." Yet how many know that? How many are being scared away from riding by the "Danger! Danger!" cries?

- Frank Krygowski


  #3  
Old November 19th 13, 10:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Graham
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Default Danger Danger!


"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 12:47:50 PM UTC-5, Graham wrote:
I just received this in a news letter from the UK CTC of which I am a member:



"My colleagues and I are absolutely devastated with the shocking rate at which cyclists are dying on Londons roads. Six cyclists have died over the last two weeks, all of them in collisions with large vehicles, three of which were lorries. During this period, three pedestrians were also killed in collisions with lorries in London."


From what I can tell, a typical year in London has about 75 pedestrians killed, but fewer than 20 cyclists.
See http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...must-get-angry

"Less well known is that, mile for mile, it's more dangerous to be a pedestrian than it is to be a cyclist..." Yet how many know that? How many are being scared away from riding by the "Danger! Danger!" cries?

All I did was give you the latest *facts* from a respected cycling organisation. Things are clearly getting worse and the recent ratio was 2 to 1 against cyclists. I accept this is a snap shot of the data which could be an aberation but from what I am seeing here in the UK as the level of cycling is going up - we have over doubled our club membership in the past year - the death rate is also rising. I cannot see why you want to keep trotting out the above mantra rather than getting behind the people who are trying to do something about it.

Graham.
  #4  
Old November 19th 13, 11:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Default Danger Danger!

DRUNKS
  #5  
Old November 19th 13, 11:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Default Danger Danger!

On 20/11/13 09:51, Graham wrote:

All I did was give you the latest *facts* from a respected cycling
organisation. Things are clearly getting worse and the recent ratio
was 2 to 1 against cyclists. I accept this is a snap shot of the data
which could be an aberation but from what I am seeing here in the UK
as the level of cycling is going up - we have over doubled our club
membership in the past year - the death rate is also rising. I cannot
see why you want to keep trotting out the above mantra rather than
getting behind the people who are trying to do something about it.


Maybe you need a change of government.

http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/20...cks-dutch-way/

--
JS
  #6  
Old November 20th 13, 12:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
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Default Danger Danger!

"Graham" wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 12:47:50 PM UTC-5, Graham wrote:
I just received this in a news letter from the UK CTC of which I am a member:



"My colleagues and I are absolutely devastated with the shocking rate at
which cyclists are dying on Londons roads. Six cyclists have died over
the last two weeks, all of them in collisions with large vehicles, three
of which were lorries. During this period, three pedestrians were also
killed in collisions with lorries in London."


From what I can tell, a typical year in London has about 75 pedestrians
killed, but fewer than 20 cyclists.
See
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...must-get-angry

"Less well known is that, mile for mile, it's more dangerous to be a
pedestrian than it is to be a cyclist..." Yet how many know that? How
many are being scared away from riding by the "Danger! Danger!" cries?

All I did was give you the latest *facts* from a respected cycling
organisation. Things are clearly getting worse and the recent ratio was 2
to 1 against cyclists. I accept this is a snap shot of the data which
could be an aberation but from what I am seeing here in the UK as the
level of cycling is going up - we have over doubled our club membership
in the past year - the death rate is also rising. I cannot see why you
want to keep trotting out the above mantra rather than getting behind the
people who are trying to do something about it.



Well said.
--
duane
  #7  
Old November 20th 13, 01:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,417
Default Danger Danger!

On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 5:51:19 PM UTC-5, Graham wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote:

On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 12:47:50 PM UTC-5, Graham wrote:

I just received this in a news letter from the UK CTC of which I am a member:




"My colleagues and I are absolutely devastated with the shocking rate at which cyclists are dying on Londons roads. Six cyclists have died over the last two weeks, all of them in collisions with large vehicles, three of which were lorries. During this period, three pedestrians were also killed in collisions with lorries in London."



From what I can tell, a typical year in London has about 75 pedestrians killed, but fewer than 20 cyclists.

See http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...must-get-angry

"Less well known is that, mile for mile, it's more dangerous to be a pedestrian than it is to be a cyclist..." Yet how many know that? How many are being scared away from riding by the "Danger! Danger!" cries?

All I did was give you the latest *facts* from a respected cycling organisation. Things are clearly getting worse and the recent ratio was 2 to 1 against cyclists. I accept this is a snap shot of the data which could be an aberation...


Precisely. Anyone familiar with the probabilities of rare events shouldn't be surprised by an occasional cluster. This seems much like the Summer of the Shark flap of some years ago - the epidemic that wasn't.

... but from what I am seeing here in the UK as the level of cycling is going up - we have over doubled our club membership in the past year...


That's good.

... the death rate is also rising.


Do you mean the rate per year, the rate per mile cycled, or the rate per cyclist? Those are greatly different things. Yes, all would be regrettable. (Ideally, we'd like nobody to ever die - an impossibility.) But if there are many more cyclists, it's not surprising nor a condemnation of cycling if the annual count of fatalities goes up slightly.

I cannot see why you want to keep trotting out the above mantra rather than getting behind the people who are trying to do something about it.


I'm sorry you're having trouble understanding. But you are the person who initiated this thread with a true "Danger! Danger!" motivation.

I've been following this issue for a while, and the way it's played in the British press is that Boris was terribly irresponsible to have lured people onto bikes, and that Something Must Be Done immediately - generally, something like providing completely separate places for bicyclists to ride, because existing roads are obviously far too dangerous.

And yet, as the article I linked demonstrated, cycling in London is significantly safer than pedestrian travel. Cycling has far fewer fatalities per year, and significantly fewer fatalities per mile traveled.

Should something be done? Certainly. Should people say "Cycling is too dangerous!"? No, unless they follow it up with "... um, although it's much safer than walking."

Should separate facilities be demanded? As with some on this group, that's the loudest cry. I don't know if they'd help at the Bow Roundabout, which seems to be a unique problem; but I think a little education and enforcement are much more likely to help, and much more quickly. Then perhaps change your HGV rules.

- Frank Krygowski
  #8  
Old November 20th 13, 10:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Graham
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Posts: 206
Default Danger Danger!


"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 5:51:19 PM UTC-5, Graham wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote:

On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 12:47:50 PM UTC-5, Graham wrote:

[snip]

"Less well known is that, mile for mile, it's more dangerous to be a pedestrian than it is to be a cyclist..." Yet how many know that? How many are being scared away from riding by the "Danger! Danger!" cries?


The "Danger Danger!" title was tongue in cheek but is does have a serious side.

[snip]

Precisely. Anyone familiar with the probabilities of rare events shouldn't be surprised by an occasional cluster. This seems much like the Summer of the Shark flap of some years ago - the epidemic that wasn't.


[snip]

Do you mean the rate per year, the rate per mile cycled, or the rate per cyclist? Those are greatly different things. And yet, as the article I linked demonstrated, cycling in London is significantly safer than pedestrian travel. Cycling has far fewer fatalities per year, and significantly fewer fatalities per mile traveled.


[snip]

- Frank Krygowski

Take all those statements above and compare them to the official report by the UK government paying partucular attention to charts 5 and 7.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...cgb2012-01.pdf

I am a keen cyclist and do all I can to promote cycling my only point in engaging is that you keep having a go at people citing "data" that is not in line with our own experience or what is published by what we take to be reliable sources.

Graham.
  #9  
Old November 20th 13, 07:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,417
Default Danger Danger!

On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 5:24:08 AM UTC-5, Graham wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...

On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 5:51:19 PM UTC-5, Graham wrote:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote:


On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 12:47:50 PM UTC-5, Graham wrote:


"Less well known is that, mile for mile, it's more dangerous to be a pedestrian than it is to be a cyclist..." Yet how many know that? How many are being scared away from riding by the "Danger! Danger!" cries?


The "Danger Danger!" title was tongue in cheek but is does have a serious side.

Precisely. Anyone familiar with the probabilities of rare events shouldn't be surprised by an occasional cluster. This seems much like the Summer of the Shark flap of some years ago - the epidemic that wasn't.


[snip]

Do you mean the rate per year, the rate per mile cycled, or the rate per cyclist? Those are greatly different things. And yet, as the article I linked demonstrated, cycling in London is significantly safer than pedestrian travel. Cycling has far fewer fatalities per year, and significantly fewer fatalities per mile traveled.


Take all those statements above and compare them to the official report by the UK government paying partucular attention to charts 5 and 7.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...cgb2012-01.pdf


Of course, you're now changing focus. Your original post, plus my responses, plus the article from which I quoted, plus most of the "Danger! Danger!" news coverage has focused on cycling deaths within the city of London. The paper you linked was, instead, data for all of Great Britain. It's still true that cycling in London causes fewer deaths (in total, and per mile traveled) than walking in London, from what I can see.

I am a keen cyclist and do all I can to promote cycling my only point in engaging is that you keep having a go at people citing "data" that is not in line with our own experience or what is published by what we take to be reliable sources.


I don't know what your "experience" is regarding cycling deaths, beyond the obvious: that it hasn't happened to you. Do you have some "reliable source" which shows more cycling deaths than pedestrian deaths in London?

And I'm not saying that things can't be improved. But we do seem to disagree on the most effective method for improvement.

- Frank Krygowski
  #10  
Old November 20th 13, 07:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Dan O
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Posts: 6,098
Default Danger Danger!

On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 5:12:24 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

snip

Should people say "Cycling is too dangerous!"? No, unless they follow it up with "... um, although it's much safer than walking."


So, it's not okay to say, "Cycling is too dangerous!"

But, it is okay to say, "Cycling is too dangerous! ... um, although it's
much safer than walking."

(?)

snip
 




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