what is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found in bolt threads?

On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 7:15:36 AM UTC+1, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found
in bolt threads?

Bicycle snot. I happens when your bicycle sneezes.

And how do you get it clean?

Apply a handkerchief, a tissue, a sheet of kitchen roll. Your jacket has button sewn on the sleeves to prevent you dragging it across the snot, after a military model.

I've found it is too deeply ingrained to do
with a wire brush. I managed with a "hooked
awl", but it was slow.

It is not meant to be easy to remove.

Threading die perhaps or will that destroy the
hole thing?

You'll transfer the goo, which is called Locktite and is a thread lock compound, to the die, and find it equally difficult to clean.

Or some chemical yet again?

Loctite, by the definition of its purpose, cannot be vulnerable to most solvents. Just dab off any oil and any other contaminants from both bolt and hole threads, and reuse as is. In theory, you're supposed to use a new bolt with fresh Loctate on it but I generally don't bother, routinely reusing the old bolt and Loctite; I've never had a bolt fall out because of it.

Andre Jute

On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 7:18:13 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 2:15:36 AM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the blue/cyanic stuff sometimes found
in bolt threads?

And how do you get it clean?

I've found it is too deeply ingrained to do
with a wire brush. I managed with a "hooked
awl", but it was slow.

Threading die perhaps or will that destroy the
hole thing?

Or some chemical yet again?

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 56 Blogomatic articles -

Sigh.

Patronizing little ****, aren't you, Ridealot?

I've always found that it is the people with the least knowledge who treat their mickey mouse bits of craft like golden nuggets of wisdom before which everyone is supposed to bow down. You're a prime example of a nobody with a little knowledge posturing like a high priest, Rideablot. All it proves is that you're a Valley Girl on a Bike.

Andre Jute
Cheers, indeed.

On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 3:40:40 PM UTC-5, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Only: how do you know what parts are subject
to vibration?


All the parts on a bicycle vibrate in use. But some more than others. Seatpost bolts usually don't come loose. Brake bolts stay put too. Bolts on the derailleurs and cranks can sometimes come loose. Rarely but sometimes. Bicycles benefit from Loctite. But bicycle bolts can usually be OK without it too. Bolt on bicycles don't come loose as often as bolts on motorcycles for instance. Loctite is an extra just in case prevention step on bicycle bolts. Not required but does not hurt.

If many parts are vibrating, which parts are
safety-critical? The handlebar?


Stem, bars, pedals are maybe the most critical. Other bolts coming loose will cause inconvenience but not an immediate emergency. I suppose your brake bolt coming loose would also be a big concern. Derailleurs coming apart don't cause an instant emergency. You just can't shift or maybe even pedal and come to a stop. Crank bolts coming off, you have four or five of them and can still ride home probably. Nipples come undone and your wheels go out of true, brakes will rub and you will stop to try to fix things. You can still ride with wobbly wheels. If your derailleurs and drivetrain came apart you would walk, and maybe coast down hills until you got back home.

On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 19:27:23 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

"
writes:

Sold by every auto parts store.
And apparently the big hardware stores too.
Blue means its removable, you can unscrew the
bolt with a wrench but the bolt will not
unscrew by itself when in use. Red Loctite is
permanent and you cannot remove the bolt.
Most folks think Loctite is good in most
situations. Most folks don't want to clean
it off.

Aha!

So it still works even when it fills the thread
gap because it is softer...

Not exactly. If you think of it as a "super glue" which hardens due to
a lack of air, you will be pretty close.

It must be strong in some sense tho because
often even for a long screw only three or four
laps have it!

Probably because when you squirt it on it may complete cover three or
four threads but when you screw it in the nut it gets spread over most
of the bolts.

Do you use it when you cannot have a stop nut
on the other side? Or is it still beneficial?

You use when it is necessary :-) And, it probably is largely
unnecessary for a bicycle as vibration is the primary cause of
fasteners loosening and bicycles don't vibrate very much.

--
cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 22:40:35 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Frank Krygowski
writes:

There's almost always clearance between
a male thread and a female one. If a fastener
can vibrate or wiggle side to side within
that clearance, it tends to lose preload very
quickly. For an analogy, if you place (say)
a book on a slightly slanted ramp, it will
sit in place; but if you vibrate it or move
it side to side, it will slide down the ramp
a bit at a time. The screw thread is,
functionally, a ramp on which the same
action happens.

Thread lockers take up that free space and
prevent the lateral motion, so they prevent
the screw from loosening.

Understood!

Only: how do you know what parts are subject
to vibration?

If many parts are vibrating, which parts are
safety-critical? The handlebar?

"Back in the day", bicycles were usually assembled without using any
form of thread locking device/material and very seldom did anything
fall off.

Today it seems that everything has loktite on it.
The front forks also have a little sign on them saying "failure to
tighten this nut may cause the wheel to fall off".

You have a metaphor why star and split washers
work as well?

Basically for the reason that Frank stated. They keep vibration from
loosening the bolt.

It consumes the vibration and balances it both
ways so the result is no movement?

Thanks to everyone else answering as well!
--
cheers,

John B.

On 7/2/2016 4:40 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Frank Krygowski
writes:

There's almost always clearance between
a male thread and a female one. If a fastener
can vibrate or wiggle side to side within
that clearance, it tends to lose preload very
quickly. For an analogy, if you place (say)
a book on a slightly slanted ramp, it will
sit in place; but if you vibrate it or move
it side to side, it will slide down the ramp
a bit at a time. The screw thread is,
functionally, a ramp on which the same
action happens.

Thread lockers take up that free space and
prevent the lateral motion, so they prevent
the screw from loosening.

Understood!

Only: how do you know what parts are subject
to vibration?

Well, I suppose all of them see some vibration. But fasteners large
enough to withstand more torque, and longer fasteners, seem more
resistant to loosening. Fine thread ones are more resistant than coarse
threads. Pedals are usually no problem because the precession action
tends to tighten them. In my experience, thread locking compound is
most useful on little 5mm fasteners for things like fenders and racks.

If many parts are vibrating, which parts are
safety-critical? The handlebar?

That might be the most critical. Brake mounting fasteners too; and in
my experience, lots of brake screws and bolts do come with thread
locking of some sort.

You have a metaphor why star and split washers
work as well?

I don't think star and split washers are anywhere near as effective. I
think both are intended to slightly dig into the underside of the screw
or nut, and the metal part to which those are clamped.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 10:41:25 +0700, John B.
wrote:

"Back in the day", bicycles were usually assembled without using any
form of thread locking device/material and very seldom did anything
fall off.

Today it seems that everything has loktite on it.

Back when I was a terror on 2 wheels (early 1960's), I would ride
around on my bicycle with most everything almost ready to fall off.
Just about everything on my various bicycles was loose. What saved
the bicycle from self disassembly was rust, dirt, and grease. The
combination of dirt and grease on bolts, threads, studs, etc acted
much like thread locking compounds, except it was applied on the
outside. It took about the same amount of time for the rust, dirt,
and grease to form as it did for the bolts to work themselves loose.
Since I never bothered to clean the bicycle, the arrangement worked
quite well, and little hardware was lost. Banging on the handle bars,
tolerating rattles, and tying down hardware with kite string was
deemed normal.

Today, people actually clean their bicycles, which I believe is
responsible for the plague of thread locking compounds. Lost are the
benefits of rust, dirt, and grease to deal with loose hardware. On a
clean bicycle, things are more likely to fall off than on a rusted or
dirty bicycle. This tends to attract product liability litigation,
which might suggest that the manufacturer was selling a device that
might suddenly self-disassemble causing grievous injuries worthy of
astronomical awards. Worse, the common availability of thread locking
solutions might suggest that the manufacturer knew about the problem,
ignored the obvious solutions, and is therefore negligent. Since
pre-coating the fasteners with rust, dirt, and grease is not an
acceptable solution, thread lock is used. Whether it is needed or
does anything useful is not part of the question.

The front forks also have a little sign on them saying "failure to
tighten this nut may cause the wheel to fall off".

That's the warning label problem. Part of the judgment of a product
liability suit is usually a recommendation by the court that a warning
label be affixed to the faulty device to inform users of the hazard.
Such warnings allegedly convert the plaintiff from an grievously
injured victim of a hazardous product, to a complete idiot unable to
read and follow instructions.

http://forums.mtbr.com/passion/when-mountain-bike-warning-labels-go-too-far-940742.html


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 02/07/16 22:50, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jul 2016 13:57:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Thread lockers take up that free space and prevent the lateral motion,
so they prevent the screw from loosening.

Thanks for the explanation.

And now, a bit of major topic drift:

I fix quite a few laptops, where the small M2, M2.5, and M3 screws
holding the bottom of the case are secured with blue Loctite. I see
fairly large numbers of missing screws. A typical laptop might have
12 small screws on the bottom, with 4-6 missing. Same problem with
every brand. More use and vibration seems to make it worse. Even
when I reassemble the laptop with additional blue Loctite, and make
sure that the screws are snug, they fall out after a few months.
Oddly, some of the screws require about 6 rotations to remove, which I
find difficult to believe that they just "rattled" out. I couldn't
find any pattern by location, type of screw, heads, depth, or screw
finish quality.

Got any theories? I'm out of bad guesses.

We return you now to bicycling related topics...

The Difference Between Red, Blue, Green and Purple Threadlockers
http://www.us.henkel-adhesives-blog.com/post/All-About-Threadlockers/The-Difference-Between-Red-Blue-Green-and-Purple-Threadlockers/

Blue Threadlocker Basics
http://www.us.henkel-adhesives-blog.com/post/All-About-Threadlockers/Blue-Threadlocker-Basics/

How to Remove Red Threadlocker
http://www.us.henkel-adhesives-blog.com/post/All-About-Threadlockers/How-to-Remove-Red-Threadlocker/

At this point I'd like to interject a new discovery on my part, which
you probably all knew about anyway;

http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/loctite-sticks-6180.htm

Which are apparently the dogs wobblers, being the real deal, without all
the messy fluids.

Right...left...right ...left...

Uncorroded areas use an iron, corroded needs female surrounding area heated.

Coudnut find the CHOH clean off thinner 10 minutes before the bell went to an at hand can if Gumout. G works as an accelerator.

Yes, held nut in dash foreceps...ocean breeze

I do compulsive vehicle wheel changing.

The stud, just bought a die from Amazon for a couple bucks...wire brushed n wiped clean with clean nuts, gets a soot of blue on the end with a soot in the leading nut thread.

Then the run in to coated seating area stays relatively clean running on a skim of fluid.

get a die...search Amazon due then size...when there'a free shipping minimum. great turn in.