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Before & after bike ghettos



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 20th 10, 06:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Duane Hebert[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

"Peter Cole" wrote in message ...
On 10/20/2010 11:08 AM, Duane Hebert wrote:


I'd point out that while roaming over New England by bike, I never felt
any inhospitable treatment, maybe I just have low standards, but people
seemed friendly enough, and quite tolerant of cyclists.


You'll find the same thing touring in Quebec. Even if you run into
people that don't speak English it works out.

The only strange thing that I had happen in New England was at the
foot of a hill that we were starting, there was this brake shop and
the guys outside having a smoke started jeering a bit. By the time
we reached the top we realized both why they were jeering and why there
was a brake shop at the bottom g
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  #12  
Old October 20th 10, 06:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Radey Shouman
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

Peter Cole writes:

On 10/20/2010 11:08 AM, Duane Hebert wrote:


I'd point out that while roaming over New England by bike, I never
felt any inhospitable treatment, maybe I just have low standards, but
people seemed friendly enough, and quite tolerant of cyclists.


I have experiencedconsiderable *personal* hospitality in New England,
both on a bicycle and off. New Englanders are quite capable of both
friendliness and hopsitality. What they won't do is vote to spend money
on things, like street signs, that are seen as primarily benefiting
visitors.

Spending money on promoting tourism they do understand.

I didn't say this attitude is wrong, but I found it novel.
  #13  
Old October 20th 10, 07:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Radey Shouman
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Peter Cole writes:

On 10/19/2010 2:34 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:

Most other places I have lived or visited have some notion of civic
hospitality: they want, or believe they should want, visitors to feel
welcome, and are willing to spend a little public money to make it so.
New Englanders apparently do not. Individually many are hospitable, but
most consider any money at all spent to benefit outsiders to be
purely wasted. Signs for streets every local should know fall into this
category. Accomodations for out-of-town cyclists do as well.

Perhaps this attitude is simply the result of a long experience of local
democracy, I don't know


The Boston area was, at least at one time, noted for its network of
public spaces. The famous "Emerald Necklace" was designed by Frederick
Law Olmsted: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_Necklace. The
greater Boston area is loaded with various public spaces acquired over
the years and grand structures erected for the common use.


Right. Spaces intended to benefit the local voting public. Until I
moved to Massachusetts I had never seen a sign saying:

"Park|Beach|whatever for the use of residents of xxx town only"

Now I have seen several. I doubt these are still legally enforceable,
but they are there.

Massachusetts is over 60% forested, and ranks 35th in percentage of
public land, unlike Iowa, at #49, ahead of only Kansas. Also in New
England, NH ranks #19.

Unlike an industrial farming hell hole like Iowa, where GM monoculture
spreads for endless miles, spreading toxic runoff all the way to the
Gulf of Mexico, and sewage lagoons dot the landscape, breeding the
next strain of antibiotic resistant bug, Massachusetts retains much of
its original landscape and natural resources. People come to New
England to enjoy its seashores, mountains and winding country
roads. People ride bikes here to enjoy the scenery, not for fried
dough and beer. Fried clams, maybe.


That's not the original landscape, most of the forest was farmland not
all that long ago. Quite a bit of it was farmland (abandoned due to
pestilence) when the pilgrims first showed up. Massachusetts is scenic
and varied, and the clams and oysters are some of the best.

On the other hand, Mass can't live on clams alone, and happily eats food
grown in Iowa.

A quick survey in any of the popular areas -- Cape Cod, NH's White
Mountains, the Maine coast, will reveal a high percentage of out of
state plates. Hardly a testimony to an unwelcome reception.


Cash cows are welcome anywhere. Residents of vacation spots, including
the ones you mention, learn to concentrate on the bottom line. No one
*likes* tourists in a tourist town, though.

My "overpopulated" town, despite being only 6 miles from downtown
Boston, is bordered by a river clean enough for swimming and to
support a population of herons, otters and seasonal herring runs. My
urban street is wandered by coyotes, fox, deer, rabbit, groundhog and
even the occasional moose, and overflown by hawks and harriers,
occasionally making kills outside my window. All that, and the
restoration of the harbor and coast was accomplished with billions of
public dollars. That is civics in action.


I can drive 75 miles to the Cape and sail my sailboat to a stone's
throw from the Obama & Kennedy families summer spots, with a 12 acre
island to myself in a pristine and protected coastal area on a
mid-summer's day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFByfOJGMqo The whole
area is loaded with public resources, many preserved since colonial
times. I'm an "outsider" there, too.


This weekend is the "Head of the Charles Regatta", an event where
thousands of rowers come from around the country (& world sometimes)
to compete on the river that runs straight through Boston. The next
Boston Marathon sold out registrations (20,000) in 8 hours. Boston
draws hundreds of thousands of students from the country and world to
spend four or more years at our universities, many of them decide to
stay on.

Tourism is a huge part of the New England economy, and taken seriously
in Boston & Massachusetts, too. While that may be dismissed as only
being business-like, the large historical and contemporary investments
in public spaces, unlike places like Iowa, indicate the importance
placed on those public areas and resources. They are for all,
including "outsiders".


I agree with a lot of your description, but it's arguing against
something I didn't write.

As for "friendliness", I don't know how to measure that directly, but
it seems that people who choose to live among lots of other people
must like people more than those who choose the prairie. I don't see
evidence of anti-outsider sentiment in Boston, Massachusetts or New
England. Additionally, I have experienced far more tolerance here than
in other parts of the US (like northern CA, parts of OR, *all* of IN,
never mind the deep South). I found Texas to be "friendly", but hardly
"tolerant". Given the choice, I'll take tolerance, especially when
riding a bike. You may find the frugal omission of street signs
inhospitable, but I find the usual lack of bullet holes more
welcoming.


Boston has a remarkably low standard for politeness -- once a person
gets used to that the people can be as friendly as those anywhere.

Once I lived in Texas, and my boss was a Boston native. He railed
repeatedly against duplicitous southern belles. I had no idea what he
was talking about. When I moved here, years later, the penny dropped:
They were showing the minimum politeness they thought consonant with
human decency, but he thought they really liked him. Hilarity ensued.

I'm not sure you can hold Boston up as a beacon of tolerance, though,
it seems quite thoroughly segregated. Also, I have to wonder if you've
equated a lack of anti-Yankee sentiment with tolerance; it's easy
to mistake tolerance of one's own with tolerance in general.


  #14  
Old October 20th 10, 09:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/20/2010 2:41 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:

Right. Spaces intended to benefit the local voting public. Until I
moved to Massachusetts I had never seen a sign saying:

"Park|Beach|whatever for the use of residents of xxx town only"

Now I have seen several. I doubt these are still legally enforceable,
but they are there.


These are common. It's not the beach that's usually being rationed, it's
the parking.

On the other hand, Mass can't live on clams alone, and happily eats food
grown in Iowa.


Not entirely happily.

I agree with a lot of your description, but it's arguing against
something I didn't write.


Point taken.

Boston has a remarkably low standard for politeness -- once a person
gets used to that the people can be as friendly as those anywhere.


These days, they're more than ever, friendly as those anywhere, because
they're from anywhere. We're not as regional as we used to be, neither
is the rest of the country.

I'm not sure you can hold Boston up as a beacon of tolerance, though,
it seems quite thoroughly segregated. Also, I have to wonder if you've
equated a lack of anti-Yankee sentiment with tolerance; it's easy
to mistake tolerance of one's own with tolerance in general.


The was a recent article in the paper about this. It asked the question
why people remained in high crime neighborhoods in Boston, when the
(safer) alternatives weren't any more expensive. Indirectly addressing
the question of continuing segregation. They felt the reasons were
complex. It might have been feel-good, CYA, I don't know. Boston is
still highly segregated, true, but it's simplistic to call it racism.

Boston got a really bad national rep over the school busing turmoil.
Neighborhoods in Boston were more clannish than many other cities.
That's one of the reasons for the spate of recent movies, it makes
colorful drama, most of that ethnic clustering is long gone, despite
what Ben Affleck shoots.


  #15  
Old October 20th 10, 09:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/20/2010 2:41 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:

Right. Spaces intended to benefit the local voting public. Until I
moved to Massachusetts I had never seen a sign saying:

"Park|Beach|whatever for the use of residents of xxx town only"

Now I have seen several. I doubt these are still legally enforceable,
but they are there.


These are common. It's not the beach that's usually being rationed, it's
the parking.

On the other hand, Mass can't live on clams alone, and happily eats food
grown in Iowa.


Not entirely happily.

I agree with a lot of your description, but it's arguing against
something I didn't write.


Point taken.

Boston has a remarkably low standard for politeness -- once a person
gets used to that the people can be as friendly as those anywhere.


These days, they're more than ever, friendly as those anywhere, because
they're from anywhere. We're not as regional as we used to be, neither
is the rest of the country.

I'm not sure you can hold Boston up as a beacon of tolerance, though,
it seems quite thoroughly segregated. Also, I have to wonder if you've
equated a lack of anti-Yankee sentiment with tolerance; it's easy
to mistake tolerance of one's own with tolerance in general.


The was a recent article in the paper about this. It asked the question
why people remained in high crime neighborhoods in Boston, when the
(safer) alternatives weren't any more expensive. Indirectly addressing
the question of continuing segregation. They felt the reasons were
complex. It might have been feel-good, CYA, I don't know. Boston is
still highly segregated, true, but it's simplistic to call it racism.

Boston got a really bad national rep over the school busing turmoil.
Neighborhoods in Boston were more clannish than many other cities.
That's one of the reasons for the spate of recent movies, it makes
colorful drama, most of that ethnic clustering is long gone, despite
what Ben Affleck shoots.


  #16  
Old October 21st 10, 04:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Radey Shouman
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

Peter Cole writes:

On 10/20/2010 2:41 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:

Right. Spaces intended to benefit the local voting public. Until I
moved to Massachusetts I had never seen a sign saying:

"Park|Beach|whatever for the use of residents of xxx town only"

Now I have seen several. I doubt these are still legally enforceable,
but they are there.


These are common. It's not the beach that's usually being rationed,
it's the parking.


The signs I'm thinking of are definitely about the park, but they are
fairly old.

On the other hand, Mass can't live on clams alone, and happily eats food
grown in Iowa.


Not entirely happily.


Not unhappily enough to plow up those forests again.

Boston has a remarkably low standard for politeness -- once a person
gets used to that the people can be as friendly as those anywhere.


These days, they're more than ever, friendly as those anywhere,
because they're from anywhere. We're not as regional as we used to be,
neither is the rest of the country.


I can't speak for the past, but I do notice regional differences in
how strangers are expected to deal with each other, and I don't believe
it's just population density.

I'm not sure you can hold Boston up as a beacon of tolerance, though,
it seems quite thoroughly segregated. Also, I have to wonder if you've
equated a lack of anti-Yankee sentiment with tolerance; it's easy
to mistake tolerance of one's own with tolerance in general.


The was a recent article in the paper about this. It asked the
question why people remained in high crime neighborhoods in Boston,
when the (safer) alternatives weren't any more expensive. Indirectly
addressing the question of continuing segregation. They felt the
reasons were complex. It might have been feel-good, CYA, I don't
know. Boston is still highly segregated, true, but it's simplistic to
call it racism.

Boston got a really bad national rep over the school busing
turmoil. Neighborhoods in Boston were more clannish than many other
cities. That's one of the reasons for the spate of recent movies, it
makes colorful drama, most of that ethnic clustering is long gone,
despite what Ben Affleck shoots.


I thought it was so locals could groan at the actors' accents.
  #17  
Old October 21st 10, 04:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/21/2010 11:03 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Peter writes:

On 10/20/2010 2:41 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:

Right. Spaces intended to benefit the local voting public. Until I
moved to Massachusetts I had never seen a sign saying:

"Park|Beach|whatever for the use of residents of xxx town only"

Now I have seen several. I doubt these are still legally enforceable,
but they are there.


These are common. It's not the beach that's usually being rationed,
it's the parking.


The signs I'm thinking of are definitely about the park, but they are
fairly old.


I've only seen these signs on small, town owned beaches, state beaches
and parks don't check for residency. The big town beaches often charge
for parking if you don't have a town sticker.

On the other hand, Mass can't live on clams alone, and happily eats food
grown in Iowa.


Not entirely happily.


Not unhappily enough to plow up those forests again.


It's hard to compete against socialized corn, ask the Mexicans.


Boston has a remarkably low standard for politeness -- once a person
gets used to that the people can be as friendly as those anywhere.


These days, they're more than ever, friendly as those anywhere,
because they're from anywhere. We're not as regional as we used to be,
neither is the rest of the country.


I can't speak for the past, but I do notice regional differences in
how strangers are expected to deal with each other, and I don't believe
it's just population density.


It's hard to make generalities, but the people I knew who relocated
often claimed to find West-coasters "superficial", but that's when there
was far more regionalism. Like your Southern belles, the friendliness
was only skin deep.


Boston got a really bad national rep over the school busing
turmoil. Neighborhoods in Boston were more clannish than many other
cities. That's one of the reasons for the spate of recent movies, it
makes colorful drama, most of that ethnic clustering is long gone,
despite what Ben Affleck shoots.


I thought it was so locals could groan at the actors' accents.


Yes, but the local accents are also dying out. Most of the neighborhoods
in Boston started out as ghettos, even the white ones (Irish, Italian),
they often stayed pretty homogeneous long after discrimination ended
(the white ones). Most of them, including South Boston, Dorchester,
Charlestown and the North End, became finally mixed once
condo-conversion and gentrification started right after the busing era.
You still have Irish parades and Italian parades in the same
neighborhoods, but most of the crowds come in from the 'burbs, the
locals are often yuppies.

  #18  
Old October 21st 10, 07:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Radey Shouman
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Peter Cole writes:

On 10/21/2010 11:03 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Peter writes:

On 10/20/2010 2:41 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:


These days, they're more than ever, friendly as those anywhere,
because they're from anywhere. We're not as regional as we used to be,
neither is the rest of the country.


I can't speak for the past, but I do notice regional differences in
how strangers are expected to deal with each other, and I don't believe
it's just population density.


It's hard to make generalities, but the people I knew who relocated
often claimed to find West-coasters "superficial", but that's when
there was far more regionalism. Like your Southern belles, the
friendliness was only skin deep.


I said "polite", not "friendly". Politeness *is* superficial. Many
Bostonians seem to think it insincere, people in other regions think
it indispensable nonetheless.

I think my first interaction with a Bostonian was with a parking lot
attendant. "How are you?" - "Fine, how are you?" - "Like ****!".
That's a conversation that might happen between friends anywhere,
but between strangers I found it quite surprising.

Boston got a really bad national rep over the school busing
turmoil. Neighborhoods in Boston were more clannish than many other
cities. That's one of the reasons for the spate of recent movies, it
makes colorful drama, most of that ethnic clustering is long gone,
despite what Ben Affleck shoots.


I thought it was so locals could groan at the actors' accents.


Yes, but the local accents are also dying out.


Maybe, but they're still very much in evidence. I know people that
claim to be able to identify which town in Eastern Mass someone came
from, by accent. When tested they're often right.

Most of the
neighborhoods in Boston started out as ghettos, even the white ones
(Irish, Italian), they often stayed pretty homogeneous long after
discrimination ended (the white ones). Most of them, including South
Boston, Dorchester, Charlestown and the North End, became finally
mixed once condo-conversion and gentrification started right after the
busing era. You still have Irish parades and Italian parades in the
same neighborhoods, but most of the crowds come in from the 'burbs,
the locals are often yuppies.


I can't speak for Boston proper, I haven't spent enough time there. I
do know people that moved out of my town (Lowell) because they thought
Cambodians and Puerto Ricans were much harder to bear than Greeks and
French Canadians.

  #19  
Old October 22nd 10, 01:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/20/2010 9:49 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
[...]
As for "friendliness", I don't know how to measure that directly, but it
seems that people who choose to live among lots of other people must
like people more than those who choose the prairie.[...]


Yet, in the real world, people are the most rude and stand-offish in
large cites.

While you do get people that want to be "left the hell alone" in remote
rural areas, these people almost never bother those who do not intrude
upon them.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

  #20  
Old October 22nd 10, 01:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]
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Posts: 2,312
Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/20/2010 10:44 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
[...]
I'd point out that while roaming over New England by bike, I never felt
any inhospitable treatment, maybe I just have low standards, but people
seemed friendly enough, and quite tolerant of cyclists.[...]


Even in the urban Boston and NYC parts of New England?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

 




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