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Before & after bike ghettos



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 20th 10, 08:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Duane Hebert[_2_]
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Posts: 133
Default Before & after bike ghettos



"damyth" wrote in message ...

I took a look at Google streets and I think I may have figured out
what you're talking about.

HBO has no visible lane markings (westbound). Period. (It does
eastbound though.) It's no wonder drivers there would be all over the
"lanes." They have no frame of reference. That's something all
citizens of Montreal, motorists and cyclists, should take up with the
DOT there. I don't think your situation is at all representative of
"other cities."


This particular road is probably not representative of the city
as a whole but it's not uncommon for industrial parks and
such. I only posted this to try to show someone that without
bike lanes, cars will drift to wherever they want. Couple that with
a speed limit of 50km which gets you most traffic either at 70km
or stopped and it's an interesting bike ride.

On a slightly different note, as great as Google streetview is, due
to the height of the camera and the fisheye lens, it's very hard to
judge lane width. I know it makes even wide streets here look
absolutely claustrophobic. So I don't know even if they painted lanes
on HBO, that there is sufficient width to ride bikes safely.


If you continue over the overpass for Highway 13, you see that it approaches
an intersection. In this particular picture, there are trucks in the left lanes
and an SUV in the right lane. The SUV is about 1/2 foot from the curb
and about 2 feet from the center lane.

What they could do, and this has been suggested, is to take the sidewalks and
flatten them and make them a bike lane. I've never seen anyone walking on them
so that may make sense. But I think that if they just widen the lanes without
marking off the bike lane, the cars will spread out.

This thread is degenerating into some perverse contest of "worst
streets to ride." As such, it no longer has much relevance to whether
bike lanes would be a good thing or not. Regardless how you feel
about bike lanes, the first prerequisite to decent cycling is well-
maintained roads. Judging by what I see on Google streetview of
Montreal I'm rather dubious that I'd even want to drive there, never
mind bike.


Yet the city has one of the largest cycling populations in Canada.
My point is, that the city is spending a bunch on facilities. Bike lanes,
paths etc. And the effort seems to be increasing the number of cyclists.
Much of it is in response to roads like Henri Bourassa.
To have someone say categorically that this is bad without
even seeing the alternatives is ridiculous.
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  #22  
Old October 20th 10, 08:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default Before & after bike ghettos

On Oct 20, 12:17*pm, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

One of you guys talked about a mile backup from a stop sign, something
I've absolutely never seen. *That's well over 200 cars backed up, and
at an overoptimistic five seconds per car, that's over fifteen minutes
to even make it to the stop sign.


It happens regularly, except in the summer, on Lowell road in Concord,
Mass. *I believe that most drivers wait more than 15 minutes, and
shortly after they pass the stop sign they get into another long line to
enter a rotary.

When I drive to work I avoid that route, because I don't want to wait.
But it is the quickest and most pleasant way by bicycle.

Yes, in a situation like that, I'd probably pass carefully on the
right. *But I'm a bit skeptical that such an event happens very often..


It's not an "event", it's regular and expected. *Why are you skeptical?
Do you think the lot of us complete fabulists?


I think that if we examine traffic across America, it's got to be
extremely rare. Really - a mile of cars backed up regularly, like
every work day? Fifteen minutes to drive a mile as a normal
condition? And the locals haven't risen up and demanded something
better?

I'm not saying it can't possibly happen anywhere. But I will say that
if we accept that as unquestioned justification for a bike lane, it's
going to add very few bike lanes to America. It has to be an
extremely unusual case.

- Frank Krygowski

  #23  
Old October 20th 10, 08:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Radey Shouman
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Oct 20, 12:17*pm, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

One of you guys talked about a mile backup from a stop sign, something
I've absolutely never seen. *That's well over 200 cars backed up, and
at an overoptimistic five seconds per car, that's over fifteen minutes
to even make it to the stop sign.


It happens regularly, except in the summer, on Lowell road in Concord,
Mass. *I believe that most drivers wait more than 15 minutes, and
shortly after they pass the stop sign they get into another long line to
enter a rotary.

When I drive to work I avoid that route, because I don't want to wait.
But it is the quickest and most pleasant way by bicycle.

Yes, in a situation like that, I'd probably pass carefully on the
right. *But I'm a bit skeptical that such an event happens very often.


It's not an "event", it's regular and expected. *Why are you skeptical?
Do you think the lot of us complete fabulists?


I think that if we examine traffic across America, it's got to be
extremely rare. Really - a mile of cars backed up regularly, like
every work day? Fifteen minutes to drive a mile as a normal
condition?


Yes really, I think many commuters take that as a matter of course. If
you surveyed random streets in America at random times I'm sure this
sort of backup would be extermely unusual. On the other hand, if you
surveyed random commuters in America during morning rush hour, I don't
think it would be unusual at all. Which is my point about the inadequacy
as a sampling technique of touring the country by bicycle.

And the locals haven't risen up and demanded something
better?


Most of the traffic isn't really local, it's just the quickest way for
people from nearby areas to pass through. The people actually living in
the neighborhood would almost certainly rise up in a body and protest
bitterly if anything that might increase traffic or appropriate their
land were proposed.

I'm not saying it can't possibly happen anywhere. But I will say that
if we accept that as unquestioned justification for a bike lane, it's
going to add very few bike lanes to America. It has to be an
extremely unusual case.


I wouldn't ask for bike lanes in the places I've described, I'm
satisfied with the status quo -- just had to object to statements that
clashed with what I know of reality.


  #24  
Old October 20th 10, 09:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
David Scheidt
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Posts: 1,346
Default Before & after bike ghettos

In rec.bicycles.tech Frank Krygowski wrote:
:On Oct 20, 12:17*pm, Radey Shouman wrote:
: Frank Krygowski writes:
:
: One of you guys talked about a mile backup from a stop sign, something
: I've absolutely never seen. *That's well over 200 cars backed up, and
: at an overoptimistic five seconds per car, that's over fifteen minutes
: to even make it to the stop sign.
:
: It happens regularly, except in the summer, on Lowell road in Concord,
: Mass. *I believe that most drivers wait more than 15 minutes, and
: shortly after they pass the stop sign they get into another long line to
: enter a rotary.
:
: When I drive to work I avoid that route, because I don't want to wait.
: But it is the quickest and most pleasant way by bicycle.
:
: Yes, in a situation like that, I'd probably pass carefully on the
: right. *But I'm a bit skeptical that such an event happens very often.
:
: It's not an "event", it's regular and expected. *Why are you skeptical?
: Do you think the lot of us complete fabulists?

:I think that if we examine traffic across America, it's got to be
:extremely rare. Really - a mile of cars backed up regularly, like
:every work day? Fifteen minutes to drive a mile as a normal
:condition? And the locals haven't risen up and demanded something
:better?

There was an four way intersection near here that was backed up 2 miles on a
regular basis. They've replaced it with a trafic circle, which has
reduced the wait to about a minute at peak times. But it was awful
for years. It's a road you have to be insane to bicycle on, though.
No shoulder, 10 foot lanes, 55 mph speed limits.




--
sig 118
  #25  
Old October 20th 10, 10:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Posts: 4,572
Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/20/2010 3:12 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Oct 20, 12:17 pm, Radey wrote:


It's not an "event", it's regular and expected. Why are you skeptical?
Do you think the lot of us complete fabulists?


I think that if we examine traffic across America, it's got to be
extremely rare. Really - a mile of cars backed up regularly, like
every work day? Fifteen minutes to drive a mile as a normal
condition? And the locals haven't risen up and demanded something
better?


Yes, bike lanes!


I'm not saying it can't possibly happen anywhere. But I will say that
if we accept that as unquestioned justification for a bike lane, it's
going to add very few bike lanes to America. It has to be an
extremely unusual case.


Unusual geographically, America is a big place, but not where most
people actually live. Your counties are 1/20th the population density of
mine. It does make a difference.
  #26  
Old October 20th 10, 10:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Posts: 4,572
Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/20/2010 3:12 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Oct 20, 12:17 pm, Radey wrote:


It's not an "event", it's regular and expected. Why are you skeptical?
Do you think the lot of us complete fabulists?


I think that if we examine traffic across America, it's got to be
extremely rare. Really - a mile of cars backed up regularly, like
every work day? Fifteen minutes to drive a mile as a normal
condition? And the locals haven't risen up and demanded something
better?


Yes, bike lanes!


I'm not saying it can't possibly happen anywhere. But I will say that
if we accept that as unquestioned justification for a bike lane, it's
going to add very few bike lanes to America. It has to be an
extremely unusual case.


Unusual geographically, America is a big place, but not where most
people actually live. Your counties are 1/20th the population density of
mine. It does make a difference.
  #27  
Old October 20th 10, 11:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
damyth
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Posts: 345
Default Before & after bike ghettos

On Oct 20, 12:06*pm, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
"damyth" wrote in ...
I took a look at Google streets and I think I may have figured out
what you're talking about.


HBO has no visible lane markings (westbound). *Period. *(It does
eastbound though.) *It's no wonder drivers there would be all over the
"lanes." *They have no frame of reference. *That's something all
citizens of Montreal, motorists and cyclists, should take up with the
DOT there. *I don't think your situation is at all representative of
"other cities."


This particular road is probably not representative of the city
as a whole but it's not uncommon for industrial parks and
such. *I only posted this to try to show someone that without
bike lanes, cars will drift to wherever they want. *Couple that with
a speed limit of 50km which gets you most traffic either at 70km
or stopped and it's an interesting bike ride.

On a slightly different note, as great as Google streetview is, *due
to the height of the camera and the fisheye lens, it's very hard to
judge lane width. *I know it makes even wide streets here look
absolutely claustrophobic. *So I don't know even if they painted lanes
on HBO, that there is sufficient width to ride bikes safely.


If you continue over the overpass for Highway 13, you see that it approaches
an intersection. *In this particular picture, there are trucks in the left lanes
and an SUV in the right lane. *The SUV is about 1/2 foot from the curb
and about 2 feet from the center lane.

What they could do, and this has been suggested, is to take the sidewalks and
flatten them and make them a bike lane. *I've never seen anyone walking on them
so that may make sense. *But I think that if they just widen the lanes without
marking off the bike lane, the cars will spread out.

This thread is degenerating into some perverse contest of "worst
streets to ride." *As such, it no longer has much relevance to whether
bike lanes would be a good thing or not. * Regardless how you feel
about bike lanes, the first prerequisite to decent cycling is well-
maintained roads. *Judging by what I see on Google streetview of
Montreal I'm rather dubious that I'd even want to drive there, never
mind bike.


Yet the city has one of the largest cycling populations in Canada.
My point is, that the city is spending a bunch on facilities. *Bike lanes,
paths etc. *And the effort seems to be increasing the number of cyclists.
Much of it is in response to roads like Henri Bourassa.
To have someone say categorically that this is bad without
even seeing the alternatives is ridiculous.


By citing HBO as an example you've only undermined your own
credibility or whatever position you might have advocated regarding
bike lanes. By your own admission HBO isn't representative of
Montreal, let alone anywhere else. All bets are off for cycling when
the road has other major deficiencies that must be addressed first,
such as car lane markings.

If Montreal hasn't even bothered to maintain car lane markings on HBO,
what makes you think they'll maintain the bike lane marking, even
Montreal puts one there?

It puzzles me why you even bothered to propose a poll in this thread
regarding the "problem" of curb-hugging motorists given your own
(late) admission of the singular nature of HBO.
  #28  
Old October 21st 10, 12:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]
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Posts: 2,312
Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/20/2010 11:46 AM, A. Muzi wrote:
Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
On 10/19/2010 10:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
[...] In three places I worked as an engineer, the hours were normal
8 to 5[...]


What? 7 to 7 is more like normal working hours for an engineer.


You mean just a "half day" of 12 hours?

Here is where Andy Muzi *actually* lives!

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=401+State+Str eet,+Madison,+WI&sll=43.074829,-89.392632&sspn=0.00096,0.002642&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear= 401+State+St,+Madison,+Dane,+Wisconsin+53703&ll=43 .074829,-89.392632&spn=0.00096,0.002642&z=19&layer=c&cbll=4 3.074829,-89.392632&panoid=PLsE6Mnrfn54UuL5tDeuLg&cbp=12,173 .57,,0,5

or http://tinyurl.com/2dz9b6u for Jobst Brandt.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #29  
Old October 21st 10, 02:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default Before & after bike ghettos

On Oct 20, 3:06*pm, "Duane Hebert" wrote:

This particular road is probably not representative of the city
as a whole ...


It certainly doesn't seem to be! I'm seeing a lot of "Well, look at
THIS if you think we don't need bike lanes!" but the "THIS" turns out
to be either no problem, or extremely unusual.

Understand, this does not mean (and I am not saying) that there is no
place in America that should get some sort of special bicycling
facility. It does mean, IMO, that people are overstating lots of
cases.

What they could do, and this has been suggested, is to take the sidewalks and
flatten them and make them a bike lane. *I've never seen anyone walking on them
so that may make sense. *But I think that if they just widen the lanes without
marking off the bike lane, the cars will spread out.


Well, we obviously think differently. Anyway, it doesn't matter
whether cars spread out a bit when cyclists aren't present. That's
what sweeps the roads clean. And on that road you're pointing to, a
cyclist would be visible from half a mile back. Risk of being run
over from behind would be negligible. As usual, it's really not a
cause for rational fear.

*Judging by what I see on Google streetview of
Montreal I'm rather dubious that I'd even want to drive there, never
mind bike.


Yet the city has one of the largest cycling populations in Canada.


Within the past month or so, I heard from my sister, brother-in-law
and neice, who just vacationed in Montreal. While there, they enjoyed
the Bixi system - an example of a good "bike facility," in my view.
They mentioned not a word about bike lanes or bike paths, either
favorable or unfavorable. I don't know the city, nor in which part
they rode, but what got those casual cyclists riding was the
availability of public bikes, which they loved. Any other facilities
were apparently unimportant; if they were, they'd have said so.

- Frank Krygowski
  #30  
Old October 21st 10, 02:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Dan O
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Posts: 6,098
Default Before & after bike ghettos

On Oct 20, 6:22 am, damyth wrote:
On Oct 20, 5:41 am, "Duane Hebert" wrote:



"Frank Krygowski" wrote in ...
On Oct 19, 12:38 pm, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
"Radey Shouman" wrote in ...
Nope. I'm finding it hard to believe that people are obstructed in
that situation with any regularity.


Incredible.


Admittedly, I don't have to deal with such dense traffic very often.
One of you guys talked about a mile backup from a stop sign, something
I've absolutely never seen. That's well over 200 cars backed up, and
at an overoptimistic five seconds per car, that's over fifteen minutes
to even make it to the stop sign.


Had to take the car today (grumble) and had a wait of 10 minutes at
one stop. Probably not a mile, more like 4 blocks but it's a 4-way so it
took more than 5 seconds per car.
On my bike, I would have been in the bike lane (sorry, I meant inside the
paint) and it would have taken 20 seconds like it did every day that I wasn't
driving.


Yes, in a situation like that, I'd probably pass carefully on the
right. But I'm a bit skeptical that such an event happens very often.


Be skeptical if you like but you should investigate life in the real world
before dismissing anyone with a solution different than yours. Without
the bike lane you wouldn't have passed carefully on the right because
all of the traffic turning right in front of you would have been hugging
the curb.


Vehicular cycling works some time. Some time it doesn't.
Even Forester doesn't claim that it works everywhere.


Maybe we should take a poll and see how many people here have a commute
similar to this or who are skeptical that this exists?


I've never biked in Montreal but I've lived and biked in a lot of
cities in the US. Quite frankly I have no idea what you're talking
about. Why would drivers (in Montreal or elsewhere) have an obsessive
need to hug the right side of the lane, as opposed to staying in the
center?

I'd not saying your experience is not valid, but it's not at all
clear from what you've described why this would be the case. There's
probably something else that's going on if drivers feel the need to
hug the curb. It's just not clear to me what that is. Are the lanes
too narrow?


I guarantee that *some* of them do it because they just passed a guy
on a bicycle, and want to try ;-) and prevent him from passing them
back.


 




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