Dangerous? Study: 77 to 1 benefit to risk

On 8/7/2011 5:32 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 4:51 PM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 2:52 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 11:24 AM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 6:43 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 1:47 AM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/6/2011 10:26 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/6/2011 4:21 PM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/6/2011 12:50 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
[...]
I hate queuing up behind long lines of hot, exhaust spewing
vehicles
jammed curb to curb.[...]

That only happens a few times a year (at special events) where I
live in
Iowa.


I can believe that, but the context of my comments was dense urban
areas.

Yes, but why would sane people choose to live in such places?


Lots of reasons. One relevant to this thread: the potential to live
car-free and/or use a bicycle for most of your transportation.

People can do that in areas with less than a quarter of a million
people, without all the negatives huge population concentrations bring.


Yeah if you want to shop at Wal-Mart and eat fast food.

Gee, I have alternatives to both of those. *WITHIN* reasonable cycling
distance.

Contrary to myth, Iowa is *not* a northern version of Mississippi or
other backwards [1] southern state.

[1] Any place that approves of flying the Confederate Flag is *not*
modern.


Now that's a low standard.

So is being more patient and polite than the residents of large cities
on the northeastern US seaboard.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
I am a vehicular cyclist.

"Peter Cole" wrote in message
...
On 8/7/2011 12:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Are you aware that Portland's green bike boxes haven't been shown to
work? Last I heard, data shows just as many intersection conflicts as
before.

Maybe you haven't been following:

http://bikeportland.org/2010/09/14/p...xes-work-39441

I think they are goofy and non-sensical -- you have this box; you're in the
middle of the traffic lane, and then immediately past the intersection is a
normal width bike lane that by law you have to be in. Why put bikes in the
middle of traffic in a green box and then have them get over immediately
after the intersection. Is it a display area?. That picture shows the
cyclist in the bike lane -- not the box. He's lining up for the Hawthorne
bridge. My office is about two blocks away.

The best part about the green boxes is that they become slippery when wet
after about four seasons of hard wear, lots of rain and some snow. If they
wanted to put road money to good use, they could have repaved SW Columbia,
which is about two blocks south and is a nightmare to ride on.

About being held up by cars -- I was descending Germantown road at a walk
yesterday because of all the GD cars. When you build suburbia just over the
hill, it turns the twisty little descents into busy arterials. Totally
miserable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqllO_J9_wA (this guy had clear
sailing -- unfortunately cuts out the twisty bottom section).

-- Jay Beattie.



--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ---

Frank makes the mistake of thinking people value facts
and proper statistical analyses over gut feelings and
conventional "wisdom".
The problem is thinking in shades of gray -- something
Frank has difficulty with, too.

=v= Good grief. Frank provided info for all of us to think
whatever the heck we want to think about it. You two reply
by slagging him for it?

=v= I'm aware that many people aren't swayed by facts and
a deeper understanding of statistics. That doesn't mean
these things should never be mentioned. Again, good grief.
Thank you, Frank,
_Jym_

On 8/7/2011 7:53 PM, Jym Dyer wrote:
Frank makes the mistake of thinking people value facts
and proper statistical analyses over gut feelings and
conventional "wisdom".
The problem is thinking in shades of gray -- something
Frank has difficulty with, too.

=v= Good grief. Frank provided info for all of us to think
whatever the heck we want to think about it. You two reply
by slagging him for it?

=v= I'm aware that many people aren't swayed by facts and
a deeper understanding of statistics. That doesn't mean
these things should never be mentioned. Again, good grief.
Thank you, Frank,
_Jym_

The information is rather old news, at least qualitatively. I have no
real interest in whether the benefit ratio is 77 to 1 or 1.1 to 1. I
don't think anyone disputes the likelihood that cycling provides a net
positive health benefit, there have been a slew of studies that claimed
this and, as far as I know, not a single one that claimed otherwise.

What you took out of context and apparently didn't get from the thread
was that Frank takes such data and spins it to conclude that anyone with
safety concerns is being a "fear monger". "Danger! Danger!" & all that.
That's essentially a straw man argument. The real question isn't what
the net health benefit is but whether cycling can't be easily made safer.

If he would just reference the article without editorializing about
helmets and/or facilities his posts would be fine.

On 8/7/2011 7:26 PM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 5:29 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 11:22 AM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 8:10 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 12:12 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
[...]
I agree with reduced speed limits in any place where a pedestrian or
cyclist could be expected to be traveling.

I would assume by that you mean the only exception would be limited
access highways. I think that exception should be obvious and not
particularly relevant to dense urban areas.[...]

The problem with controlled access roads in dense urban areas is too
much access. Get rid of the interchanges in the cities, and it would
make it much quicker to traverse them on the way to one's destination.


Except for those coming and going from the city, the very reason those
highways were built in the first place.

I'm sure that Boston is typical, with the exception that the Atlantic
Ocean limits our Easterly options, in that originally highways developed
in a "hub & spoke" pattern to bring workers to urban jobs from suburban
residences, following and extending streetcar lines. In recent decades,
demographics have changed, with many employers relocating to the suburbs
and many residents relocating to the city. The former phenomenon creates
a lot of suburb to suburb commutes, sometimes served by "beltways"
circling the city, but many such commutes have the shortest path through
the city. That particular commuting pattern defies an easy solution.
Urban residents being understandably intolerant of elevated expressways
blighting their expensive real estate, the only vehicular solution is to
bury them, something Boston recently did partially at a truly horrific
cost. Not a generic solution in the "new economy".

A rational and equitable policy would be to discourage "through
commutes" as they provide no benefit to either urban residents or
workers and they make poor use of precious urban space. Not
surprisingly, that is the exact opposite of your recommendation.

I would be fine with re-routing the controlled access roads to the
periphery or beyond and eliminating many that currently go through the
urban core. The key would be to limit exchanges, since otherwise urban
sprawl develops around them.


I have no idea what you're talking about (as usual). Urban sprawl is an
oxymoron. Suburban sprawl is a recognized problem.

On 8/7/2011 7:36 PM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 5:32 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 4:51 PM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 2:52 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 11:24 AM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 6:43 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 1:47 AM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/6/2011 10:26 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/6/2011 4:21 PM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/6/2011 12:50 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
[...]
I hate queuing up behind long lines of hot, exhaust spewing
vehicles
jammed curb to curb.[...]

That only happens a few times a year (at special events) where I
live in
Iowa.


I can believe that, but the context of my comments was dense urban
areas.

Yes, but why would sane people choose to live in such places?


Lots of reasons. One relevant to this thread: the potential to live
car-free and/or use a bicycle for most of your transportation.

People can do that in areas with less than a quarter of a million
people, without all the negatives huge population concentrations
bring.


Yeah if you want to shop at Wal-Mart and eat fast food.

Gee, I have alternatives to both of those. *WITHIN* reasonable cycling
distance.

Contrary to myth, Iowa is *not* a northern version of Mississippi or
other backwards [1] southern state.

[1] Any place that approves of flying the Confederate Flag is *not*
modern.


Now that's a low standard.

So is being more patient and polite than the residents of large cities
on the northeastern US seaboard.


You're hardly an exemplar, are you?

On 8/7/2011 6:53 PM, Jym Dyer wrote:
Frank makes the mistake of thinking people value facts
and proper statistical analyses over gut feelings and
conventional "wisdom".
The problem is thinking in shades of gray -- something
Frank has difficulty with, too.

=v= Good grief. Frank provided info for all of us to think
whatever the heck we want to think about it. You two reply
by slagging him for it?

If anyone thinks I am "slagging" Frank Krygowski, they have completely
missed the point.

=v= I'm aware that many people aren't swayed by facts and
a deeper understanding of statistics. That doesn't mean
these things should never be mentioned. Again, good grief.
Thank you, Frank,
_Jym_

Do not always be so literal.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 8/7/2011 8:43 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 7:36 PM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 5:32 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 4:51 PM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 2:52 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 11:24 AM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 6:43 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 1:47 AM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/6/2011 10:26 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/6/2011 4:21 PM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/6/2011 12:50 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
[...]
I hate queuing up behind long lines of hot, exhaust spewing
vehicles
jammed curb to curb.[...]

That only happens a few times a year (at special events) where I
live in
Iowa.


I can believe that, but the context of my comments was dense urban
areas.

Yes, but why would sane people choose to live in such places?


Lots of reasons. One relevant to this thread: the potential to live
car-free and/or use a bicycle for most of your transportation.

People can do that in areas with less than a quarter of a million
people, without all the negatives huge population concentrations
bring.


Yeah if you want to shop at Wal-Mart and eat fast food.

Gee, I have alternatives to both of those. *WITHIN* reasonable cycling
distance.

Contrary to myth, Iowa is *not* a northern version of Mississippi or
other backwards [1] southern state.

[1] Any place that approves of flying the Confederate Flag is *not*
modern.


Now that's a low standard.

So is being more patient and polite than the residents of large cities
on the northeastern US seaboard.


You're hardly an exemplar, are you?

Do not confuse Usenet with real life.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 8/7/2011 10:02 PM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 8:43 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 7:36 PM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 5:32 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 4:51 PM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 2:52 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 11:24 AM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/7/2011 6:43 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/7/2011 1:47 AM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/6/2011 10:26 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/6/2011 4:21 PM, "T°m Sherm@n" wrote:
On 8/6/2011 12:50 PM, Peter Cole wrote:
[...]
I hate queuing up behind long lines of hot, exhaust spewing
vehicles
jammed curb to curb.[...]

That only happens a few times a year (at special events) where I
live in
Iowa.


I can believe that, but the context of my comments was dense
urban
areas.

Yes, but why would sane people choose to live in such places?


Lots of reasons. One relevant to this thread: the potential to live
car-free and/or use a bicycle for most of your transportation.

People can do that in areas with less than a quarter of a million
people, without all the negatives huge population concentrations
bring.


Yeah if you want to shop at Wal-Mart and eat fast food.

Gee, I have alternatives to both of those. *WITHIN* reasonable cycling
distance.

Contrary to myth, Iowa is *not* a northern version of Mississippi or
other backwards [1] southern state.

[1] Any place that approves of flying the Confederate Flag is *not*
modern.


Now that's a low standard.

So is being more patient and polite than the residents of large cities
on the northeastern US seaboard.


You're hardly an exemplar, are you?

Do not confuse Usenet with real life.


So, your avatar is a New Yorker?

You are seriously full of ****, you know that?

On 8/7/2011 7:42 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
"Peter wrote in message
...
On 8/7/2011 12:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Are you aware that Portland's green bike boxes haven't been shown to
work? Last I heard, data shows just as many intersection conflicts as
before.

Maybe you haven't been following:

http://bikeportland.org/2010/09/14/p...xes-work-39441

I think they are goofy and non-sensical -- you have this box; you're in the
middle of the traffic lane, and then immediately past the intersection is a
normal width bike lane that by law you have to be in. Why put bikes in the
middle of traffic in a green box and then have them get over immediately
after the intersection. Is it a display area?.

No time to read the articles or referenced studies?


The best part about the green boxes is that they become slippery when wet
after about four seasons of hard wear, lots of rain and some snow. If they
wanted to put road money to good use, they could have repaved SW Columbia,
which is about two blocks south and is a nightmare to ride on.

Why should road repaving come out of cycling budgets?


About being held up by cars -- I was descending Germantown road at a walk
yesterday because of all the GD cars. When you build suburbia just over the
hill, it turns the twisty little descents into busy arterials. Totally
miserable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqllO_J9_wA (this guy had clear
sailing -- unfortunately cuts out the twisty bottom section).

Pavement looked good.