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#11
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torque wrench issues
On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 1:19:49 AM UTC+1, wrote:
I'm not aware of any "torque to yield" bolts in use on bicycles. Sure you are. Only they're not bolts but socket drive adaptors stamped "Made in China". If you're driving a 1/4in drive socket, use two of these adapters, 1/43/8 and 3/81/4 and the cheap metal of the drive adaptor will twist off in your expensive Snap-On socket long before the bolt is over-torqued.. Andre Jute Lateral thinking |
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#12
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torque wrench issues
On 4/24/2017 1:45 AM, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:30:56 +1000, James wrote: On 24/04/17 11:06, John B Slocomb wrote: Tightening fasteners is a far more complex matter then just putting a wrench on them and turning them. For heavily loaded fasteners Caterpillar recommends (1) clean the fastener, (2) lubricate the fastener (3) torque to specification in three steps, i.e. first torque all of the fasteners to 40% torque, then to 70% torque and then to final torque. For the bolts on head stem clamps I usually do something similar. If you tighten one steerer clamp bolt to 7Nm and then the other to the same torque, the first one is likely now at much less than 7Nm. Certainly. I believe that Shimano recommends tightening the two bolts, that hold the off-side pedal, on repeatedly. First one and then the other until they are both tight? That procedure is in the mfr. specs for my FSA crank as well (for the left hand crank arm pinch bolts). Mark J. |
#13
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torque wrench issues
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: "Emanuel Berg" wrote in message ... I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench, 28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if that is China or not It has a locking screw, a torque setting handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some English unit I take it?) - it also as a locking lever on top just like an ordinary ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise. The torques only work in the clockwise direction. So if the locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way, it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in the manual it says: Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will damage the ratchet mechanism and the calibrated settings. So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which would require a left thread? (And it would be just a long shaft, with the torque not in effect.) As for me, I don't plan using it for anything but as a torque, because I have other, less expensive ratchets and spanners to do the everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know what it means. It also came with a certificate with data on the calibration and in the manual it says it should be recalibrated at least every 12 months. Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter. Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off the end. However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt" Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off. Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads. As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese invasion. |
#14
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torque wrench issues
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 14:22:04 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote: On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 1:19:49 AM UTC+1, wrote: I'm not aware of any "torque to yield" bolts in use on bicycles. Sure you are. Only they're not bolts but socket drive adaptors stamped "Made in China". If you're driving a 1/4in drive socket, use two of these adapters, 1/43/8 and 3/81/4 and the cheap metal of the drive adaptor will twist off in your expensive Snap-On socket long before the bolt is over-torqued. Andre Jute Lateral thinking That's only if you use crappy tools. Crappy tools are too expensive to depend on. I value my skin |
#15
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torque wrench issues
On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:42:21 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote: On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: "Emanuel Berg" wrote in message ... I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench, 28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if that is China or not It has a locking screw, a torque setting handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some English unit I take it?) - it also as a locking lever on top just like an ordinary ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise. The torques only work in the clockwise direction. So if the locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way, it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in the manual it says: Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will damage the ratchet mechanism and the calibrated settings. So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which would require a left thread? (And it would be just a long shaft, with the torque not in effect.) As for me, I don't plan using it for anything but as a torque, because I have other, less expensive ratchets and spanners to do the everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know what it means. It also came with a certificate with data on the calibration and in the manual it says it should be recalibrated at least every 12 months. Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter. Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off the end. However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt" Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off. Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads. As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese invasion. The lock washers were very effective where used, and the Phipips style bolts were incapable of delivering enough torque to breat them loose without camming out - the Hammer Impact driver solved that problem |
#17
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torque wrench issues
On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 4:43:16 PM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote:
On 4/24/2017 1:45 AM, John B Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:30:56 +1000, James wrote: On 24/04/17 11:06, John B Slocomb wrote: Tightening fasteners is a far more complex matter then just putting a wrench on them and turning them. For heavily loaded fasteners Caterpillar recommends (1) clean the fastener, (2) lubricate the fastener (3) torque to specification in three steps, i.e. first torque all of the fasteners to 40% torque, then to 70% torque and then to final torque. For the bolts on head stem clamps I usually do something similar. If you tighten one steerer clamp bolt to 7Nm and then the other to the same torque, the first one is likely now at much less than 7Nm. Certainly. I believe that Shimano recommends tightening the two bolts, that hold the off-side pedal, on repeatedly. First one and then the other until they are both tight? That procedure is in the mfr. specs for my FSA crank as well (for the left hand crank arm pinch bolts). Mark J. Campy made a hollow BB30 crank for a short time that required careful torquing but very soon replaced it with the splined version they now use that is a whole lot less picky. |
#18
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torque wrench issues
On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 9:02:24 PM UTC-7, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:17:14 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:42:21 +0700, John B Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: wrote in message ... On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: "Emanuel Berg" wrote in message ... I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench, 28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if that is China or not It has a locking screw, a torque setting handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some English unit I take it?) - it also as a locking lever on top just like an ordinary ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise. The torques only work in the clockwise direction. So if the locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way, it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in the manual it says: Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will damage the ratchet mechanism and the calibrated settings. So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which would require a left thread? (And it would be just a long shaft, with the torque not in effect.) As for me, I don't plan using it for anything but as a torque, because I have other, less expensive ratchets and spanners to do the everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know what it means. It also came with a certificate with data on the calibration and in the manual it says it should be recalibrated at least every 12 months. Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter. Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off the end. However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt" Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off. Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads. As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese invasion. The lock washers were very effective where used, and the Phipips style bolts were incapable of delivering enough torque to breat them loose without camming out - the Hammer Impact driver solved that problem I believe I've read that the "Phillips" headed screws in a Japanese motorcycle are not actually "Phillips" but some Japanese standard that didn't quite match the screwdrivers we had in the U.S. Which probably didn't help either :-) Roger that. They have a little less depth and strip the screws out. That's one of the reasons they've gone to this nasty little five sided poke-in deal that always looks like if you really torque it it will break off. |
#19
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torque wrench issues
On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 3:13:21 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 14:22:04 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote: On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 1:19:49 AM UTC+1, wrote: I'm not aware of any "torque to yield" bolts in use on bicycles. Sure you are. Only they're not bolts but socket drive adaptors stamped "Made in China". If you're driving a 1/4in drive socket, use two of these adapters, 1/43/8 and 3/81/4 and the cheap metal of the drive adaptor will twist off in your expensive Snap-On socket long before the bolt is over-torqued. Andre Jute Lateral thinking That's only if you use crappy tools. Crappy tools are too expensive to depend on. I value my skin If your skin is ever in danger even with crappy tools, you've been poorly trained, or haven't put your mind in gear. You're not supposed to hold the wrench with closed fingers, so that your knuckles get smashed if the tool slips. You're supposed to push the wrench with the flat of you hand and straight fingers so that what hits first if the wrench slips or breaks is the wrench, not your knuckles. In any event, I was just making a joke about poor quality drive adaptors. I agree with you. Even if I will use a tool only once, I buy the best I can find. Example: a stud for a couple of bucks that can create damage worth a grand and change and too much of my even more valuable time if it is driven too deep, but which is torqued to only 0.5Nm. Bought a tool, did it right once, noted that it stands proud a bit at the correct torque, now turn it in with spanner between thumb and forefinger until I can just hook a fingernail into the proud standing thread. Perfect. (The manufacturer has since fixed the design by first hand flaring replacement studs, and then redesigning to build a self-stopper into the manufacturing process.) Andre Jute Not a compulsive obsessive. It's just cheaper in the long run to do it right first time. Anyhow, toolfondling is perfectly respectable hobby, and a lot cleaner than keeping a pet, especially if your pet, like mine, is a hedgehog: http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/1140/ |
#20
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torque wrench issues
"John B Slocomb" wrote in message ... On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: "Emanuel Berg" wrote in message ... I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench, 28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if that is China or not It has a locking screw, a torque setting handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some English unit I take it?) - it also as a locking lever on top just like an ordinary ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise. The torques only work in the clockwise direction. So if the locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way, it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in the manual it says: Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will damage the ratchet mechanism and the calibrated settings. So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which would require a left thread? (And it would be just a long shaft, with the torque not in effect.) As for me, I don't plan using it for anything but as a torque, because I have other, less expensive ratchets and spanners to do the everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know what it means. It also came with a certificate with data on the calibration and in the manual it says it should be recalibrated at least every 12 months. Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter. Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off the end. However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt" Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off. Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads. As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese invasion. It had more to do with incompatible screw head profiles - you were near enough guaranteed to chew up the cross-point recess. Non Asian screwdriver bits have longer points so the blades only about 1/3 engaged with the recess. Using an impact driver didn't necessarily guarantee anything. At first; I put the impact chuck in an extension bar so I could do a bit of cold forming with a large hammer, then I noticed the pit of the recess was peened shiny. Just nipping the pointy end of the screwdriver bit on the grinding wheel and it fit perfectly. |
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