Sarah Hammer is a just as delusional as MC Hammer

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Oct 4, 10:28 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Carl Sundquist wrote:


"MagillaGorilla" wrote in message
.. .

But if you let Dotsie ride the gerbil wheel for 3 years, she would
have been faster than Hammer. Same with Armstrong.

Let?

Well, what I mean is Dotsie didn't want to train for it. She lives 200
miles away from the LA Gerbildrome.


Dotsie and her husband live in the LA basin...that's one of the
reasons that Andy Sparks encouraged her to take up pursuiting, i.e.,
so as to give Sarah another person with whom to train.

Andy Coggan



She lives in a bathtub?

No, seriously....Dotsie never spent a lot of time on the gerbil wheel.
You know that. Sparks just wanted a sparring partner for Sarah. So
it's unlikely he ever gave up any gerbil wheel secrets to Dotsie.


Magilla

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Oct 4, 5:35 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 22, 11:38 am, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 19, 7:52 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Any road rider can beat her in the pursuit if they
wanted.

None from the US.

Andy Coggan

Sure, they could. Kristin Armstrong or even Dotsie Bausch could have
nail-punched Hammer had they bothered to master the velodrome and a
track bike. Both have the wattage. Heck when Dotsie won nationals in
the 3km pursuit last year, she fell off her bike at the start on the
same day. That's not exactly the sign of an experienced track pursuiter.

Other elite US women roadies who have attempted the pursuit in recent
years include Amber Neben and Christine Thorburn, but they, too, have
fallen well short of the mark...

Yeah because they all do the same ****ing thing: they fly into Los
Angeles the day before the pursuit and sit on a pursuit bike for the
first time in their life before the race, and just don't feel
comfortable on the gerbil wheel or with a fixed gear.

All of these riders who you talk about have never raced a single
international event in the pursuit. Hammer raced for 3 years in
velodromes all around the world. Of course she's gonna go faster -
you're comparing her to NOVICE pursuiters. NOVICE PURSUITERS, I said.

Are you kidding me with this comparison?


Nope: it isn't THAT hard to "master the gerbil wheel" as you put it,
at least when it comes to pursuiting.


So then why did it take Sarah Hamster 3 years of riding the gerbil wheel
to post her fastest time?

Why didn't she do it within the first 6 months or year? Same with Katie
MacTier, Leontien, and Sarah Ulmer. They all invested hundreds of hours
over a period of years on the gerbil wheel before they started posting
world class times.

Magilla

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Oct 4, 5:35 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 22, 11:38 am, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 19, 7:52 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Any road rider can beat her in the pursuit if they
wanted.

None from the US.

Andy Coggan

Sure, they could. Kristin Armstrong or even Dotsie Bausch could have
nail-punched Hammer had they bothered to master the velodrome and a
track bike. Both have the wattage. Heck when Dotsie won nationals in
the 3km pursuit last year, she fell off her bike at the start on the
same day. That's not exactly the sign of an experienced track pursuiter.

Other elite US women roadies who have attempted the pursuit in recent
years include Amber Neben and Christine Thorburn, but they, too, have
fallen well short of the mark...

Yeah because they all do the same ****ing thing: they fly into Los
Angeles the day before the pursuit and sit on a pursuit bike for the
first time in their life before the race, and just don't feel
comfortable on the gerbil wheel or with a fixed gear.

All of these riders who you talk about have never raced a single
international event in the pursuit. Hammer raced for 3 years in
velodromes all around the world. Of course she's gonna go faster -
you're comparing her to NOVICE pursuiters. NOVICE PURSUITERS, I said.

Are you kidding me with this comparison?


Nope: it isn't THAT hard to "master the gerbil wheel" as you put it,
at least when it comes to pursuiting. Moreover, contrary to your
assertion above Amber Neben at least lives w/in 1 h of the LA track,
and has spent a fair bit of time riding on it.

Neben lives in Europe. I don't care where she files her taxes. I need
to know how many times she's actually been to the HabiTrail™ and
actually spun the gerbil wheel, not how far she lives from a PETCO.


Her inability to crack
the talent pool time standard therefore isn't due to lack of skill, or
(like Armstrong) due to lack of aerobic fitness and excellent
aerodynamics (which her recent World TT victory demonstrates that she
has in spades).


Rather, she (like Armstrong) doesn't have a high
enough anaerobic capacity to ride a really fast 3 km pursuit,
undoubtly in Amber's case partially as a result of the fact that she
weighs 110 lbs.

Andy Coggan



Maybe.

Magilla

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Oct 4, 5:37 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 22, 11:38 am, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 19, 7:52 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Any road rider can beat her in the pursuit if they
wanted.

None from the US.

Andy Coggan

Sure, they could. Kristin Armstrong or even Dotsie Bausch could have
nail-punched Hammer had they bothered to master the velodrome and a
track bike. Both have the wattage. Heck when Dotsie won nationals in
the 3km pursuit last year, she fell off her bike at the start on the
same day. That's not exactly the sign of an experienced track pursuiter.

Apparently you don't know that Armstrong trained for/attempted the
pursuit a couple of years ago, and her best time at ADT would have
left her in danger of getting caught by Hammer.

As for Bausch, she may have fallen off during her start, but that was
purely nerves, as everything else about her preparation and
performance was consistent with that of an experienced pursuiter. Of
course, that's to be expected given that she was coached by Hammer's
fiance. Even so, she, too, would be in danger of getting caught by
Hammer.

Other elite US women roadies who have attempted the pursuit in recent
years include Amber Neben and Christine Thorburn, but they, too, have
fallen well short of the mark...

Andy Coggan

P.S. Katie Mactier has had far more success as pursuiters on the track
than on the road, as did Ulmer. IOW, these two examples also run
counter to your claim that just about any roadie can ride a fast 3 km
on the track...

Ulmer has won many NRC stages and races including a World Cup UCI road
race.


All of which pale in comparison to her Olympic gold and pursuit world
record.

My only point was that there seems to be a hire correlation between
talent on the road and posting world class 3km pursuit times. And Sarah
Hamster was never in the same category on the road as Ulmer, MacTier,
van Moorsel, or Armstrong. I still think Armstrong could do a sub 3:30
pursuit had she trained for it seriously.









Hammer was nothing but packfill on T-Mobile for her entire career.


Thank you for helping me make my case for me. :-)


MacTier has also had a pretty solid road career.


But again, not the level of sucess she's had as a pursuiter.

Andy Coggan


Only because there's a total lack of depth competition in the elite
ranks of the women's pursuit and a lot more on the road.

Magilla

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Oct 4, 5:39 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 22, 1:50 pm, "Robert" wrote:

"Andy Coggan" wrote in message

...
On Sep 19, 7:52 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Any road rider can beat her in the pursuit if they
wanted.

None from the US.

Andy Coggan

Maybe Armstrong if given half a chance.

I doubt it. From what I've seen, she lacks the anaerobic capacity to
be really good at pursuiting, even though she obviously has the other
characteristics (i.e., high aerobic power and low aerodynamic drag).

Andy Coggan

Are you telling me the 3km pursuit is an anaerobic event? I know the 4km
pursuit is basically an aerobic event.

Magilla


Cf. http://www.fixedgearfever.com/downloads/PASO.ppt, in particular
slide #2:

"The individual pursuit is a deceptively simple event favoring
specialists who possess superior aerobic fitness coupled with a high
anaerobic capacity, excellent aerodynamics, and specific technical
skills"

Armstrong obviously has the 1st and 3rd traits/abilities, as evidenced
from her performance in road TTs. From what I've seen she's also
mastered the specific technical skills required, in particular the
ability to pace herself appropriately and to hold a good line. What
she lacks, at least relative to the demands of the event, is a
sufficiently high anaerobic capacity (which typically provides ~25% of
the energy required during a 3 km pursuit).

Andy Coggan



Okay. That could be because both Ulmer and van Moorsel had pretty good
sprints and could win field sprints at the world class level.

I would say Hamster lacked aerobic fitness though and she seemed a bit
overweight at the Wok.

Magilla

On Oct 7, 9:27*am, MagillaGorilla wrote:
Andy Coggan wrote:
On Oct 4, 5:28 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 22, 11:38 am, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 19, 7:52 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Any road rider can beat her in the pursuit if they
wanted.

None from the US.

Andy Coggan

Sure, they could. *Kristin Armstrong or even Dotsie Bausch could have
nail-punched Hammer had they bothered to master the velodrome and a
track bike. *Both have the wattage. *Heck when Dotsie won nationals in
the 3km pursuit last year, she fell off her bike at the start on the
same day. *That's not exactly the sign of an experienced track pursuiter.

Apparently you don't know that Armstrong trained for/attempted the
pursuit a couple of years ago, and her best time at ADT would have
left her in danger of getting caught by Hammer.

Sure, but only because she never rode a track bike in her life before in
competition. *Hammer rode a track bike for years. *Armstrong comes out
once and doesn't do well. *She was probably afraid of crashing or didn't
feel comfortable riding the inside line in a turn, etc.

Armstrong could produce more watts than Hammer for 3km. *That's all you
need to know as a coach.

And by the way, when Kristin was training for the pursuit in the winter
of 2007, she incurred a knee injury and had to get surgery that
effectively ended her effort in the pursuit for the Beijing Games.

So she never really trained for the pursuit like you claim. *She might
have tried it a few times, but she never really trained for it, and
certainly never mastered the gerbil wheel.

Okay, so you've gone from claiming that any roadie would simply have
to "master the gerbil wheel" (i.e., the specific technical skills
required to ride the fastest possible pursuit) to beat Hammer to
actually having to train for the event. How does that support your
original assertion?

A little bit of both. *Let me ask you this: *How many years spinning the
gerbil wheel did it take for Sarah Hamster to get her fastest time in
the pursuit? *My informal information tells me approximately 3-4 years.

So was that improvement due to further training/"learning how to spin
the gerbil wheel", or to maturation? Given that she's been a track
cyclist since before she could drive, I'd say it is due to the
latter.

Okay. *And how many times did Kristin Armstrong ride the gerbil wheel -
like 3 times in her life?

All I can tell you is that 1) Armstrong has toyed with the pursuit
over the course of several seasons, and 2) attended at least one of
the women's team pursuit camps last year.

I think KA could have pushed the world record on the gerbil wheel within
a year's worth of practice.

Practice, or training?

In any case, you're the one who asserted that practically any roadie
could easily beat Hammer, but now it seems that you're arguing that it
would required a significant amount of preparation/
specialization...changed your tune, eh?

(BTW, based on the powermeter files I've seen you're wrong on a couple
of other points in your post above.)

Andy Coggan

Don't hold out on us....so with constant power does someone go faster or
slower in a gerbil wheel turn? *That's the real issue.

Constant power = faster in the turns.

Please post the graphs.

I've done so previously.

Andy Coggan

On Oct 4, 5:31*pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:
Andy Coggan wrote:
On Sep 22, 11:38 am, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 19, 7:52 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Any road rider can beat her in the pursuit if they
wanted.

None from the US.

Andy Coggan

Sure, they could. *Kristin Armstrong or even Dotsie Bausch could have
nail-punched Hammer had they bothered to master the velodrome and a
track bike. *Both have the wattage. *Heck when Dotsie won nationals in
the 3km pursuit last year, she fell off her bike at the start on the
same day. *That's not exactly the sign of an experienced track pursuiter.

As for Bausch, she may have fallen off during her start, but that was
purely nerves, as everything else about her preparation and
performance was consistent with that of an experienced pursuiter. Of
course, that's to be expected given that she was coached by Hammer's
fiance. Even so, she, too, would be in danger of getting caught by
Hammer.

Bausch might have done a little training camp on the gerbil wheel, as
you say, but she certainly never trained for it or rode a single
competitive race in the pursuit.

Once again you seem to be misinformed: Dotsie trained at the LA track
under the tutelage of/with Andy Sparks/Sarah Hammer for about 2 mo
last summer. Moreover, she'd raced the pursuit at least once even
before nationals.

Andy Coggan

On Oct 7, 9:41*am, MagillaGorilla wrote:
Andy Coggan wrote:
On Oct 4, 5:35 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 22, 11:38 am, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 19, 7:52 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Any road rider can beat her in the pursuit if they
wanted.

None from the US.

Andy Coggan

Sure, they could. *Kristin Armstrong or even Dotsie Bausch could have
nail-punched Hammer had they bothered to master the velodrome and a
track bike. *Both have the wattage. *Heck when Dotsie won nationals in
the 3km pursuit last year, she fell off her bike at the start on the
same day. *That's not exactly the sign of an experienced track pursuiter.

Other elite US women roadies who have attempted the pursuit in recent
years include Amber Neben and Christine Thorburn, but they, too, have
fallen well short of the mark...

Yeah because they all do the same ****ing thing: they fly into Los
Angeles the day before the pursuit and sit on a pursuit bike for the
first time in their life before the race, and just don't feel
comfortable on the gerbil wheel or with a fixed gear.

All of these riders who you talk about have never raced a single
international event in the pursuit. *Hammer raced for 3 years in
velodromes all around the world. *Of course she's gonna go faster -
you're comparing her to NOVICE pursuiters. *NOVICE PURSUITERS, I said..

Are you kidding me with this comparison?

Nope: it isn't THAT hard to "master the gerbil wheel" as you put it,
at least when it comes to pursuiting.

So then why did it take Sarah Hamster 3 years of riding the gerbil wheel
to post her fastest time?

Why didn't she do it within the first 6 months or year? *Same with Katie
MacTier, Leontien, and Sarah Ulmer. *They all invested hundreds of hours
over a period of years on the gerbil wheel before they started posting
world class times.

Simple: there's a difference between mastering the skills required to
ride the fastest possible pursuit *given your current fitness/
abilities*, and riding your fastest possible pursuit, period. IOW, the
gradual progression that people make is generally the result of things
such as physical maturation, the cumulative affect of many years of
training, improvements in position and hence aerodynamics, etc., and
not due to ever increasing technical skill. That's especially true for
people who took up track cycling quite young (e.g., Ulmer, Hammer),
and thus "mastered the gerbil wheel" a long time ago.

Andy Coggan

On Oct 7, 9:52*am, MagillaGorilla wrote:
Andy Coggan wrote:
On Oct 4, 5:35 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 22, 11:38 am, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 19, 7:52 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Any road rider can beat her in the pursuit if they
wanted.

None from the US.

Andy Coggan

Sure, they could. *Kristin Armstrong or even Dotsie Bausch could have
nail-punched Hammer had they bothered to master the velodrome and a
track bike. *Both have the wattage. *Heck when Dotsie won nationals in
the 3km pursuit last year, she fell off her bike at the start on the
same day. *That's not exactly the sign of an experienced track pursuiter.

Other elite US women roadies who have attempted the pursuit in recent
years include Amber Neben and Christine Thorburn, but they, too, have
fallen well short of the mark...

Yeah because they all do the same ****ing thing: they fly into Los
Angeles the day before the pursuit and sit on a pursuit bike for the
first time in their life before the race, and just don't feel
comfortable on the gerbil wheel or with a fixed gear.

All of these riders who you talk about have never raced a single
international event in the pursuit. *Hammer raced for 3 years in
velodromes all around the world. *Of course she's gonna go faster -
you're comparing her to NOVICE pursuiters. *NOVICE PURSUITERS, I said..

Are you kidding me with this comparison?

Nope: it isn't THAT hard to "master the gerbil wheel" as you put it,
at least when it comes to pursuiting. Moreover, contrary to your
assertion above Amber Neben at least lives w/in 1 h of the LA track,
and has spent a fair bit of time riding on it.

Neben lives in Europe. *I don't care where she files her taxes. *I need
to know how many times she's actually been to the HabiTrail™ and
actually spun the gerbil wheel, not how far she lives from a PETCO.

She and her husband own a condo in one of the suburbs south of LA (I
forget which one), and she lives there full-time in the off-season.

As for how many times she's actually been to the track, you'd have to
ask her coach, Dave Jordaan, but I do know that he's had her there
quite regularly over the past few years refining her aero position.

Her inability to crack

the talent pool time standard therefore isn't due to lack of skill, or
(like Armstrong) due to lack of aerobic fitness and excellent
aerodynamics (which her recent World TT victory demonstrates that she
has in spades).

Rather, she (like Armstrong) doesn't have a high

enough anaerobic capacity to ride a really fast 3 km pursuit,
undoubtly in Amber's case partially as a result of the fact that she
weighs 110 lbs.

Andy Coggan

Maybe.

No "maybe" about it.

Andy Coggan

On Oct 7, 10:01*am, MagillaGorilla wrote:
Andy Coggan wrote:
On Oct 4, 5:39 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Andy Coggan wrote:

On Sep 22, 1:50 pm, "Robert" wrote:

"Andy Coggan" wrote in message

....
On Sep 19, 7:52 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

Any road rider can beat her in the pursuit if they
wanted.

None from the US.

Andy Coggan

Maybe Armstrong if given half a chance.

I doubt it. From what I've seen, she lacks the anaerobic capacity to
be really good at pursuiting, even though she obviously has the other
characteristics (i.e., high aerobic power and low aerodynamic drag).

Andy Coggan

Are you telling me the 3km pursuit is an anaerobic event? I know the 4km
pursuit is basically an aerobic event.

Magilla

Cf.http://www.fixedgearfever.com/downloads/PASO.ppt, in particular
slide #2:

"The individual pursuit is a deceptively simple event favoring
specialists who possess superior aerobic fitness coupled with a high
anaerobic capacity, excellent aerodynamics, and specific technical
skills"

Armstrong obviously has the 1st and 3rd traits/abilities, as evidenced
from her performance in road TTs. From what I've seen she's also
mastered the specific technical skills required, in particular the
ability to pace herself appropriately and to hold a good line. What
she lacks, at least relative to the demands of the event, is a
sufficiently high anaerobic capacity (which typically provides ~25% of
the energy required during a 3 km pursuit).

Andy Coggan

Okay. *That could be because both Ulmer and van Moorsel had pretty good
sprints and could win field sprints at the world class level.

And Armstrong?

Andy Coggan