Seoul Cycle Design Competition Winner

On 12/5/2010 2:18 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
In ,
Tºm Shermªn� " wrote:

On 12/5/2010 12:06 AM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Tºm Shermªnⓢ " wrote:

How is the newer rider going to maintain hard pedaling until he/she gets
into shape? What about times when hard pedaling may not be appropriate?

Who said it was going to be easy?
Buy if Buick Lucerne and ditch
the bicycle if it hurts that much.

So Mr. Press is an elitist who does not want to expand the number of
cyclists?

I think some people are still arguing over petty differences in degrees.
The reality *is* that most people expect that using a vehicle means
going 20mph with no effort. That's not what bikes do, much less comfort
bikes! There is nothing at all elitist to point out that those people
have lost touch with reality. If you want to "expand the number of
cyclists", you're not going to do it by lying to them about what to
expect.

The degree of discomfort a road bike can inflict on a new/casual rider
is not petty, but severe enough to make most give up on cycling.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Op 5-12-2010 22:20, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° schreef:
On 12/5/2010 2:18 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
In ,
Tºm Shermªn� " wrote:

On 12/5/2010 12:06 AM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Tºm Shermªnⓢ " wrote:

How is the newer rider going to maintain hard pedaling until he/she
gets
into shape? What about times when hard pedaling may not be
appropriate?

Who said it was going to be easy?
Buy if Buick Lucerne and ditch
the bicycle if it hurts that much.

So Mr. Press is an elitist who does not want to expand the number of
cyclists?

I think some people are still arguing over petty differences in degrees.
The reality *is* that most people expect that using a vehicle means
going 20mph with no effort. That's not what bikes do, much less comfort
bikes! There is nothing at all elitist to point out that those people
have lost touch with reality. If you want to "expand the number of
cyclists", you're not going to do it by lying to them about what to
expect.

The degree of discomfort a road bike can inflict on a new/casual rider
is not petty, but severe enough to make most give up on cycling.


New and casual riders should not buy a road bike. Simple. If they do
they are stupid. If that makes them give up riding, they are not trying
hard enough to find a comfortable bike .
If trikes/bents are so much more comfortable why are the roads not
flooded with them? If you really want one you can buy one. Why don't
people do that? You can blame only yourself.

Lou

On Dec 6, 5:49Â*pm, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 5-12-2010 22:20, T m Sherm n _ schreef:





On 12/5/2010 2:18 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
In ,
T m Sherm n _ " wrote:

On 12/5/2010 12:06 AM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Tºm Shermªnⓢ " wrote:

How is the newer rider going to maintain hard pedaling until he/she
gets
into shape? What about times when hard pedaling may not be
appropriate?

Who said it was going to be easy?
Buy if Buick Lucerne and ditch
the bicycle if it hurts that much.

So Mr. Press is an elitist who does not want to expand the number of
cyclists?

I think some people are still arguing over petty differences in degrees.
The reality *is* that most people expect that using a vehicle means
going 20mph with no effort. That's not what bikes do, much less comfort
bikes! There is nothing at all elitist to point out that those people
have lost touch with reality. If you want to "expand the number of
cyclists", you're not going to do it by lying to them about what to
expect.

The degree of discomfort a road bike can inflict on a new/casual rider
is not petty, but severe enough to make most give up on cycling.

New and casual riders should not buy a road bike. Simple. If they do
they are stupid. If that makes them give up riding, they are not trying
hard enough to find a comfortable bike .

That may be true, Lou, but you and I are preaching to Americans, who
are not the choir. Until only a few years ago an American had to make
really very serious efforts even to inform himself about non-road
bikes. His choice was road bikes or extreme mountain bikes. Remember
Jay Bollyn, only a year or two ago, living in Chicago, a huge city,
having trouble sourcing a proper city bike?

If trikes/bents are so much more comfortable why are the roads not
flooded with them? If you really want one you can buy one. Why don't
people do that? You can blame only yourself.

Bad enough being seen by the motorists on a road bike or even sitting
upright on a comfort bike. On a recumbent you are by definition lying
down and on a trike your ass is dragging the road. You're invisible
even to the drivers of large hatchbacks, never mind SUVs and trucks. A
recumbent is a special bike for special tracks, strictly for people
with racks permanently attached to their cars, who transport their
recumbents to these special recumbent-friendly paths.

Hey, Tom Sherman, if a recumbent is such a great bike, how come you
commute on your little red hobbit bobbit and not on your recumbent?
Surely the flatlands of the upper midwest doesn't carry enough traffic
to frighten off a big bad engineer like you?

Andre Jute
Nothing wrong with my courage. It's my reckless bone that is broken.

In article ,
Tºm Shermªn� °_° " wrote:

The degree of discomfort a road bike can inflict on a new/casual rider
is not petty, but severe enough to make most give up on cycling.

Maybe, just maybe, that new/casual rider should not be on a road bike.
I don't know how much more obvious that point could be made in order for
you to see it.

--
iPhone apps that matter: http://appstore.subsume.com/
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, localhost, googlegroups.com, astraweb.com,
and probably your server, too.

Op 6-12-2010 19:50, fiultra5 schreef:
On Dec 6, 5:49 pm, Lou wrote:
Op 5-12-2010 22:20, T m Sherm n _ schreef:





On 12/5/2010 2:18 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
In ,
T m Sherm n " wrote:

On 12/5/2010 12:06 AM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Tºm Shermªnⓢ " wrote:

How is the newer rider going to maintain hard pedaling until he/she
gets
into shape? What about times when hard pedaling may not be
appropriate?

Who said it was going to be easy?
Buy if Buick Lucerne and ditch
the bicycle if it hurts that much.

So Mr. Press is an elitist who does not want to expand the number of
cyclists?

I think some people are still arguing over petty differences in degrees.
The reality *is* that most people expect that using a vehicle means
going 20mph with no effort. That's not what bikes do, much less comfort
bikes! There is nothing at all elitist to point out that those people
have lost touch with reality. If you want to "expand the number of
cyclists", you're not going to do it by lying to them about what to
expect.

The degree of discomfort a road bike can inflict on a new/casual rider
is not petty, but severe enough to make most give up on cycling.

New and casual riders should not buy a road bike. Simple. If they do
they are stupid. If that makes them give up riding, they are not trying
hard enough to find a comfortable bike .

That may be true, Lou, but you and I are preaching to Americans, who
are not the choir. Until only a few years ago an American had to make
really very serious efforts even to inform himself about non-road
bikes. His choice was road bikes or extreme mountain bikes. Remember
Jay Bollyn, only a year or two ago, living in Chicago, a huge city,
having trouble sourcing a proper city bike?

Yes but eventually Jay succeeded by informing himself and asking
quenstions. Every bike in the world is only a few mouse clicks away even
for dumb, overweight and out of shape Americans.


If trikes/bents are so much more comfortable why are the roads not
flooded with them? If you really want one you can buy one. Why don't
people do that? You can blame only yourself.

Bad enough being seen by the motorists on a road bike or even sitting
upright on a comfort bike. On a recumbent you are by definition lying
down and on a trike your ass is dragging the road. You're invisible
even to the drivers of large hatchbacks, never mind SUVs and trucks. A
recumbent is a special bike for special tracks, strictly for people
with racks permanently attached to their cars, who transport their
recumbents to these special recumbent-friendly paths.

Yes, like I said before these bikes are toys like my full suspension ATB
and my full carbon roadbike. I don't use those bikes for commuting or
shopping. Everyone knows that were I live.


Lou

Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:

The degree of discomfort a road bike can inflict on a new/casual rider
is not petty, but severe enough to make most give up on cycling.


Many people I observe around here buy a budget MTB as their first bike,
expecting it to be comfortable and 'have enough gears' to ride over
hills they might encounter.

If they stay with cycling they soon start to wonder why guys on road
bikes go zooming past them, and several have asked me why. It doesn't
take long from there to get them on high pressure slicks, clipless
pedals, bar ends and lowered bars at least. The next step is to ditch
the heavy and unnecessary suspension forks that they were so excited
about when they first bought their MTB.

A road bike is not far away, and when they next ride Melbourne's 200km
'Around The Bay In a Day' an hour faster then the previous year, they're
happy.

JS.

On 12/6/2010 11:49 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 5-12-2010 22:20, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° schreef:
On 12/5/2010 2:18 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
In ,
Tºm Shermªn� " wrote:

On 12/5/2010 12:06 AM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Tºm Shermªnⓢ " wrote:

How is the newer rider going to maintain hard pedaling until he/she
gets
into shape? What about times when hard pedaling may not be
appropriate?

Who said it was going to be easy?
Buy if Buick Lucerne and ditch
the bicycle if it hurts that much.

So Mr. Press is an elitist who does not want to expand the number of
cyclists?

I think some people are still arguing over petty differences in degrees.
The reality *is* that most people expect that using a vehicle means
going 20mph with no effort. That's not what bikes do, much less comfort
bikes! There is nothing at all elitist to point out that those people
have lost touch with reality. If you want to "expand the number of
cyclists", you're not going to do it by lying to them about what to
expect.

The degree of discomfort a road bike can inflict on a new/casual rider
is not petty, but severe enough to make most give up on cycling.


New and casual riders should not buy a road bike. Simple.

But you will not be told that in most shops (in the US).

If they do
they are stupid. If that makes them give up riding, they are not trying
hard enough to find a comfortable bike .

You have not been in many USian bike shops? Shops like Yellow Jersey
are the exception, not the rule.

If trikes/bents are so much more comfortable why are the roads not
flooded with them? If you really want one you can buy one. Why don't
people do that? You can blame only yourself.

Lou

Recumbents are not for those who do not want to be the best exhibit in
the parade, so to speak. There are also issues with cost, and for
trikes, storage space and building ingress/egress.

The crank-forward bike gains much comfort over traditional position
uprights, has similar handling characteristics, inherent cost, etc. Not
as fast as a drop-bar road bike, or as nimble as a mountain bike, but
for many uses will do just fine. Unfortunately, one can not (yet) find
one factory equipped with dynamo hubs, internal gears, hub brakes, racks
and fenders.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 12/6/2010 12:50 PM, fiultra5 wrote:
On Dec 6, 5:49 pm, Lou wrote:
Op 5-12-2010 22:20, T m Sherm n _ schreef:

On 12/5/2010 2:18 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
In ,
T m Sherm n " wrote:

On 12/5/2010 12:06 AM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Tºm Shermªnⓢ " wrote:

How is the newer rider going to maintain hard pedaling until he/she
gets
into shape? What about times when hard pedaling may not be
appropriate?

Who said it was going to be easy?
Buy if Buick Lucerne and ditch
the bicycle if it hurts that much.

So Mr. Press is an elitist who does not want to expand the number of
cyclists?

I think some people are still arguing over petty differences in degrees.
The reality *is* that most people expect that using a vehicle means
going 20mph with no effort. That's not what bikes do, much less comfort
bikes! There is nothing at all elitist to point out that those people
have lost touch with reality. If you want to "expand the number of
cyclists", you're not going to do it by lying to them about what to
expect.

The degree of discomfort a road bike can inflict on a new/casual rider
is not petty, but severe enough to make most give up on cycling.

New and casual riders should not buy a road bike. Simple. If they do
they are stupid. If that makes them give up riding, they are not trying
hard enough to find a comfortable bike .

That may be true, Lou, but you and I are preaching to Americans, who
are not the choir. Until only a few years ago an American had to make
really very serious efforts even to inform himself about non-road
bikes. His choice was road bikes or extreme mountain bikes. Remember
Jay Bollyn, only a year or two ago, living in Chicago, a huge city,
having trouble sourcing a proper city bike?

If trikes/bents are so much more comfortable why are the roads not
flooded with them? If you really want one you can buy one. Why don't
people do that? You can blame only yourself.

Bad enough being seen by the motorists on a road bike or even sitting
upright on a comfort bike. On a recumbent you are by definition lying
down and on a trike your ass is dragging the road. You're invisible
even to the drivers of large hatchbacks, never mind SUVs and trucks. A
recumbent is a special bike for special tracks, strictly for people
with racks permanently attached to their cars, who transport their
recumbents to these special recumbent-friendly paths.

How do those drivers see pavement markings then, which are only a
fraction of a millimeter above the pavement?

Hey, Tom Sherman, if a recumbent is such a great bike, how come you
commute on your little red hobbit bobbit and not on your recumbent?
Surely the flatlands of the upper midwest doesn't carry enough traffic
to frighten off a big bad engineer like you?

Well, I would not want to ride my folder more than 10 km at a time. The
folder has the advantage of fitting under my desk.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 12/6/2010 1:26 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Yes, like I said before these bikes are toys like my full suspension ATB
and my full carbon roadbike. I don't use those bikes for commuting or
shopping. Everyone knows that were I live.

Almost no one knows that in the US. Those that do, have to learn the
hard way, in most cases.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 12/6/2010 12:57 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
In ,
T�m Sherm�n� " wrote:

The degree of discomfort a road bike can inflict on a new/casual rider
is not petty, but severe enough to make most give up on cycling.

Maybe, just maybe, that new/casual rider should not be on a road bike.
I don't know how much more obvious that point could be made in order for
you to see it.

butbutbut, you will *not* be told that at many LBS in the US! Or even
on RBT, for that matter.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.