[OT] engineer comments please

On Mon, 17 May 2021 01:41:22 -0000 (UTC), pH
wrote:

Bicycle...okay, now I'm legal.

traintalk...and I wish I could take one from Aptos to Santa Cruz or
where ever right now....just like in a civilized country.
(Maybe John S. can tell us about trains in Thailand, if any.)

Here's a link to "The History Guy" where he talks about the gauge being
changed over in the US (or part of) in little more than a day....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v81Gwu6BTE

pH in Aptos

Yes they moved the rails in a two day period but they spent 4 months
getting ready for the big day even to the extent of driving inside
rail spikes for the new dimension so all that was required was
levering out the old inner spikes, moving one rail and driving new
outer spikes.


--
Cheers,

John B.

Am 16.05.2021 um 04:16 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:

Tom was wondering why the track gauge for HSR (high speed rail) was a
standard gauge instead of something wider.

To be honest, the famous Japanes "bullet" trains have "standard Gauge
instead of something narrower". Traditional Japanese trains have Cape
Gauge. Japan decided a completely new infrastructure was necessary for
HST, so they aligned with the international standards.

German ICE trains are Standard Gague in order to be able to re-use
existing track into existing reailway stations. However, the first
generation ICE trains had wider than standard bodies to increase travel
comfort. The hassle of the 'L1-excessive width' when there were
building activities ensured that the second Generation ICE, like the
French TGV, stick to the international standards, even though they
mostly (but not completely) run on bespoke high-speed tracks.

Russia decided to have their ICE-derived High-speed trains on the
existing wide-gauge track between Moscow and St Petersburg, so Siemens
had to build a wide-gauge variant.

Spain decided to build their high-speed network on standard gauge rather
than on the typical Spaish wide-gauge to enable trains running from
Spain to France, so in Spain high-speed trains have a narrower gauge
than normal trains.

Rolf

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 5:00:29 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2021 08:42:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:57:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 06:48:16 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 5:20:08 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 06:48:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 8:09:50 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2021 21:03:45 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...3da-story.html

Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:

:...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture� in one of
two 900-foot horizontal steel beams. "

900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]

Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?
And even more difficulty - transporting the thing :-) A 900 ft.
trailer "

But the photo shows a very large plate apparently bolted (I can see
hex heads) to the left of the break which is likely a doubler over the
splice between two sections of the beam.

Just another example of writers who know not of what they write :-)

But then Jack Higgins, as well as several other authors, refers to the
"Slider" on the top of a Walther PPK :-)
Most people that had half a brain would know that most steel mills take a lot of water and are situated on or near water supplies. They would also know that since that bridge goes over a river that a steel mill situated on a river would move capital beams via barges. It would never even occur to a normal brain that someone would move something like that on a road.
"steel mills take a lot of water"??

Strange isn't it that I worked at the Krakatau Steel Plant in West
Java while it was being built and there wasn't a river or creek for,
probably, 200 km.

Can it be? That Tommy Boy (yet again) is expounding on a subject about
which he knows nothing at all?

Now explain to everyone why you're saying that a steel plant in the tropics with gazillions of tons of water falling each year doesn't have a ready supply of water for the steel plant and since it is directly on the Sundae Straits that there is no ready means of heavy transport. Why do you say things that are so transparently a lie? I'm sure that you can use Google better than that.
Tommy, you wrote, "most steel mills take a lot of water and are
situated on or near water supplies". and I pointed out that I had
worked at a steel mill where there was no large source of water.

And you start talking about the rain... what do you thing was going
on? Hundreds of little black haired guys dancing around in the mud
with buckets trying to catch rain drops.

But more to the point, there was no process in the mill that required
water to operate. So why would they need all this water you are going
on about.

As for the Sunda Straits, well yes it is right there, but there wasn't
any dock so it is awful hard to load all that steel onto whatever
floating device you have imagined.

And the "gazillions of tons of water falling each year"? Strange isn't
it with all that water every Asian country that I have lived in, and I
have lived in many, worries about water. Singapore even has to import
water they have so little.

Since you cannot make steel without water it appears that you are the fool. And since cold rolled steel spindles can be as much as 50 tons, you haven't the intelligence that God gave a goat as far as Transporting them.
Tommy you just keep changing the subject... as well as knowing very
little about the steel business.

The Krakatau Steel Plant that I mentioned was initially - i.e. the
first process installed, had electrical powered melting devices which
processed scrap steel which was intended to produce hot rolled steel
sheet and as I told you no water was used in either process.

And again, as I told you, there was no loading docks constructed at
the time I worked there and no railroad either. Everything was off
loaded at the port of Jakarta and trucked to the plant site.

But what is a cold rolled steel "spindle" that is a new one. I googled
the term and as far as I can see there is no such thing although did
find "steel spindle" - Trailer Axle Spindle for 1" x 1" Wheel
Bearings, 1250 lb capacity. They don't list the shipping weight but
I'll guess that it isn't 50 tons.

So, apparently "spindle" is yet another word that Tommy uses in order
to impress the multitudes with his great knowledge... and when queried
can't explain what the word means.

As I've been noting, you don't know a damn thing that you don't read on Google. You can't make steel without fresh water so your bull**** about working there is just that. How was anything "off-loaded" at the docks if it wasn't taken there somehow? You can't find "spindle" on Google so you don't know what it is and if you worked in a steel plant you would. Around the steel plant near my house was a freshwater swamp because they would dump the water after processing into the marsh which completely changes the nature of the marshland. Take your bull**** elsewhere.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 1:45:09 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2021 09:32:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 9:23:52 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:42:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:57:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 06:48:16 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 5:20:08 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 06:48:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 8:09:50 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2021 21:03:45 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...3da-story.html

Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:

:...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture� in one of
two 900-foot horizontal steel beams. "

900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]

Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?
And even more difficulty - transporting the thing :-) A 900 ft.
trailer "

But the photo shows a very large plate apparently bolted (I can see
hex heads) to the left of the break which is likely a doubler over the
splice between two sections of the beam.

Just another example of writers who know not of what they write :-)

But then Jack Higgins, as well as several other authors, refers to the
"Slider" on the top of a Walther PPK :-)
Most people that had half a brain would know that most steel mills take a lot of water and are situated on or near water supplies. They would also know that since that bridge goes over a river that a steel mill situated on a river would move capital beams via barges. It would never even occur to a normal brain that someone would move something like that on a road.
"steel mills take a lot of water"??

Strange isn't it that I worked at the Krakatau Steel Plant in West
Java while it was being built and there wasn't a river or creek for,
probably, 200 km.

Can it be? That Tommy Boy (yet again) is expounding on a subject about
which he knows nothing at all?

Now explain to everyone why you're saying that a steel plant in the tropics with gazillions of tons of water falling each year doesn't have a ready supply of water for the steel plant and since it is directly on the Sundae Straits that there is no ready means of heavy transport. Why do you say things that are so transparently a lie? I'm sure that you can use Google better than that.
Tommy, you wrote, "most steel mills take a lot of water and are
situated on or near water supplies". and I pointed out that I had
worked at a steel mill where there was no large source of water.

And you start talking about the rain... what do you thing was going
on? Hundreds of little black haired guys dancing around in the mud
with buckets trying to catch rain drops.

But more to the point, there was no process in the mill that required
water to operate. So why would they need all this water you are going
on about.

As for the Sunda Straits, well yes it is right there, but there wasn't
any dock so it is awful hard to load all that steel onto whatever
floating device you have imagined.

And the "gazillions of tons of water falling each year"? Strange isn't
it with all that water every Asian country that I have lived in, and I
have lived in many, worries about water. Singapore even has to import
water they have so little.
Since you cannot make steel without water it appears that you are the fool. And since cold rolled steel spindles can be as much as 50 tons, you haven't the intelligence that God gave a goat as far as Transporting them.
I did the contracts for part of the transportation for these:
http://media.oregonlive.com/business...bac503ed6d.jpg
https://northernrockiesrisingtide.fi...heavymart2.jpg
https://tinyurl.com/5cut6c6m Emmert is a local company that moves massive objects via truck. https://www.emmertintl.com/company/ Just because something is large, doesn't mean it will ever see water transport.

OTOH, it makes sense to have rail/water transport available for any manufacturing industry, and thus the location of Mid-Western manufacturers on the Great Lakes and adjacent rivers. With those refinery modules, I did the stevedoring contracts for loading/unloading from ships onto barges. The modules were manufactured in Korea; landed in the Columbia River and barged inland -- then trucked over the Rockies into Alberta -- and now used for processing Kerl oil sands sludge. The crane/rigging work was mind-blowing.

There are very few places in the world that have both the width and weight capacity to move something like that. We can certainly count out John's supposed employment in the Java steel mill. As I said, those steel loads often exceed 50 tons or more and the roads turn to gravel and then mud in places like the tropics where Java is situated. He just "accidentally" forgot to mention that since they didn't have a dock right there on the Sunda Staits, there was a railroad servicing the mill.

Nope Tommy, when I worked at Krakatau Steel Plant there was no dock
and no railroad.

See Tommy, if you had researched the subject before you started
yammering on about things you would have discovered that the plant
was started by the Russians in 1962 and then when the anti-communist
(political turmoil they now call it) riots occurred, in 1965, the
Russians pulled up stakes and left. The Project was restarted in 1971
(I believe) and when I was there in about 1975 the first electric
powered melting devices were being installed. In 1976 Pertamina went
broke and the steel mill, which they were funding, sort of closed down
and our contract was terminated so I went to work in the jungle :-)

Tell us you dumb asshole - what is this? https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/k...eel-plant-tour Docks and spindles of steel and water used in the processing of the steel. "Well it wasn't that way when I worked there. Duhhhh". It isn't as if steel mills the entire world over aren't exactly the same.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 3:44:17 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 16.05.2021 um 04:16 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:

Tom was wondering why the track gauge for HSR (high speed rail) was a
standard gauge instead of something wider.
To be honest, the famous Japanes "bullet" trains have "standard Gauge
instead of something narrower". Traditional Japanese trains have Cape
Gauge. Japan decided a completely new infrastructure was necessary for
HST, so they aligned with the international standards.

German ICE trains are Standard Gague in order to be able to re-use
existing track into existing reailway stations. However, the first
generation ICE trains had wider than standard bodies to increase travel
comfort. The hassle of the 'L1-excessive width' when there were
building activities ensured that the second Generation ICE, like the
French TGV, stick to the international standards, even though they
mostly (but not completely) run on bespoke high-speed tracks.

Russia decided to have their ICE-derived High-speed trains on the
existing wide-gauge track between Moscow and St Petersburg, so Siemens
had to build a wide-gauge variant.

Spain decided to build their high-speed network on standard gauge rather
than on the typical Spaish wide-gauge to enable trains running from
Spain to France, so in Spain high-speed trains have a narrower gauge
than normal trains.

Thanks for that information. And the wider gauge isn't nearly wide enough in my opinion. High speed rail doesn't have the problem of turn radius effecting track length if you're starting from scratch because you can bank the turns making the radius of the rails about the same length.

Am 17.05.2021 um 16:41 schrieb Tom Kunich:
On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 3:44:17 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 16.05.2021 um 04:16 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:

Tom was wondering why the track gauge for HSR (high speed rail)
was a standard gauge instead of something wider.
To be honest, the famous Japanes "bullet" trains have "standard
Gauge instead of something narrower". Traditional Japanese trains
have Cape Gauge. Japan decided a completely new infrastructure was
necessary for HST, so they aligned with the international
standards.

German ICE trains are Standard Gague in order to be able to re-use
existing track into existing reailway stations. However, the first
generation ICE trains had wider than standard bodies to increase
travel comfort. The hassle of the 'L1-excessive width' when there
were building activities ensured that the second Generation ICE,
like the French TGV, stick to the international standards, even
though they mostly (but not completely) run on bespoke high-speed
tracks.

Russia decided to have their ICE-derived High-speed trains on the
existing wide-gauge track between Moscow and St Petersburg, so
Siemens had to build a wide-gauge variant.

Spain decided to build their high-speed network on standard gauge
rather than on the typical Spaish wide-gauge to enable trains
running from Spain to France, so in Spain high-speed trains have a
narrower gauge than normal trains.

Thanks for that information. And the wider gauge isn't nearly wide
enough in my opinion. High speed rail doesn't have the problem of
turn radius effecting track length if you're starting from scratch
because you can bank the turns making the radius of the rails about
the same length.

As you rely on being able to stop on the line and you need to take into
account that passenger are allowed to walk inside the train, you cannot
bank a 200mph line like a roller-coaster.

In Germany, we allow a maximum bank of 160mm (i.e. bank angle = inv sin
(160/1435) ) and a maximum lateral acceleration of 0.85 m/s, resulting
in a minimum radius of just over 4000m at 300 kph.

Rolf

On 5/17/2021 3:44 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 16.05.2021 um 04:16 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:

Tom was wondering why the track gauge for HSR (high speed rail) was a
standard gauge instead of something wider.

To be honest, the famous Japanes "bullet" trains have "standard Gauge
instead of something narrower".Â* Traditional Japanese trains have Cape
Gauge.Â* Japan decided a completely new infrastructure was necessary for
HST, so they aligned with the international standards.

German ICE trains are Standard Gague in order to be able to re-use
existing track into existing reailway stations.Â* However, the first
generation ICE trains had wider than standard bodies to increase travel
comfort.Â* The hassle of the 'L1-excessive width' when there were
building activities ensured that the second Generation ICE, like the
French TGV, stick to the international standards, even though they
mostly (but not completely) run on bespoke high-speed tracks.

LOL, none of this is possible because our resident expert who claims to
know everything about everything, but in reality knows little aboyut
anything, claimed that high speed rail requires wider spacing.

In fact, the only HSR that uses wider gauge are in some countries where
their regular trains also use wider spacing, like Russia.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 9:07:53 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 17.05.2021 um 16:41 schrieb Tom Kunich:
On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 3:44:17 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 16.05.2021 um 04:16 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:

Tom was wondering why the track gauge for HSR (high speed rail)
was a standard gauge instead of something wider.
To be honest, the famous Japanes "bullet" trains have "standard
Gauge instead of something narrower". Traditional Japanese trains
have Cape Gauge. Japan decided a completely new infrastructure was
necessary for HST, so they aligned with the international
standards.

German ICE trains are Standard Gague in order to be able to re-use
existing track into existing reailway stations. However, the first
generation ICE trains had wider than standard bodies to increase
travel comfort. The hassle of the 'L1-excessive width' when there
were building activities ensured that the second Generation ICE,
like the French TGV, stick to the international standards, even
though they mostly (but not completely) run on bespoke high-speed
tracks.

Russia decided to have their ICE-derived High-speed trains on the
existing wide-gauge track between Moscow and St Petersburg, so
Siemens had to build a wide-gauge variant.

Spain decided to build their high-speed network on standard gauge
rather than on the typical Spaish wide-gauge to enable trains
running from Spain to France, so in Spain high-speed trains have a
narrower gauge than normal trains.

Thanks for that information. And the wider gauge isn't nearly wide
enough in my opinion. High speed rail doesn't have the problem of
turn radius effecting track length if you're starting from scratch
because you can bank the turns making the radius of the rails about
the same length.
As you rely on being able to stop on the line and you need to take into
account that passenger are allowed to walk inside the train, you cannot
bank a 200mph line like a roller-coaster.

In Germany, we allow a maximum bank of 160mm (i.e. bank angle = inv sin
(160/1435) ) and a maximum lateral acceleration of 0.85 m/s, resulting
in a minimum radius of just over 4000m at 300 kph.

Banking properly made does not increase the g forces on any passengers. These are not roller coasters.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 9:44:02 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/17/2021 3:44 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 16.05.2021 um 04:16 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:

Tom was wondering why the track gauge for HSR (high speed rail) was a
standard gauge instead of something wider.

To be honest, the famous Japanes "bullet" trains have "standard Gauge
instead of something narrower". Traditional Japanese trains have Cape
Gauge. Japan decided a completely new infrastructure was necessary for
HST, so they aligned with the international standards.

German ICE trains are Standard Gague in order to be able to re-use
existing track into existing reailway stations. However, the first
generation ICE trains had wider than standard bodies to increase travel
comfort. The hassle of the 'L1-excessive width' when there were
building activities ensured that the second Generation ICE, like the
French TGV, stick to the international standards, even though they
mostly (but not completely) run on bespoke high-speed tracks.
LOL, none of this is possible because our resident expert who claims to
know everything about everything, but in reality knows little aboyut
anything, claimed that high speed rail requires wider spacing.

In fact, the only HSR that uses wider gauge are in some countries where
their regular trains also use wider spacing, like Russia.
Scharf, you have never told us what your education and experience are in. Seem to me that you appear to be the resident expert without a shred of experience,.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 07:37:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

Tell us you dumb asshole - what is this? https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/k...eel-plant-tour Docks and spindles of steel and water used in the processing of the steel. "Well it wasn't that way when I worked there. Duhhhh". It isn't as if steel mills the entire world over aren't exactly the same.

Nice find. However, there's a problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krakatau_Steel#Production_facilities
"Krakatau Steel has six production plants..." You can see which plant
is shown in each image by clicking on the image. For example, the
small middle photo showing water dripping down onto a slab of hot
rolled steel is labeled:
"A steel slab runs through the laminar cooling process in the hot
strip mill area of the PT Krakatau Steel plant in Cilegon, Banten
province, Indonesia, on Thursday, Feb. 21, 2013."

While you are correct that large amounts of water is used in steel
production, most of it is re-used:
https://www.ispatguru.com/water-used-in-steel-plant-and-its-types/
"Enormous quantity of water is needed at every stage of production.
Less than 10% of this water is actually consumed and balance water is
usually is returned to the system."
It's like a water fountain closed system. Lots of water moving, but
little is lost. The article goes no to describe typical uses for
water in what I presume is a typical steel mill.

Trivia: I attended college in Pomona, California. Nearby was the
Kaiser Steel plant in Fontana. At the time, it was one of the largest
steel plants in the US and made much of the steel used during WWII for
ship building:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Steel
If you look at a map of the Fontana area, you might notice that there
are no nearby waterways capable of moving large quantities of ore or
steel:
https://goo.gl/maps/ZxuVt581zSzZ8j1r5
The nearby Santa Ana River is dry most of the year. However, if you
look at the rail map of the Fontana area:
https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=010cb07a67a4437f9db5e72090adb0dc
you might notice that there are quite a few nearby railroads going E-W
and N-S.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558