Power Meters?

On Sat, 1 May 2021 07:46:12 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/1/2021 7:42 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip

Well I think I have figured this out. I don't need a power meter as I am in shape and know how to get in shape or stay in shape. I don't race at all and I am getting slower although the decline is something I can manage. What I have not managed is my decline in running ability and with Runner's Dystonia it is impossible at times for me to remember how to run.

A power meter would just be a statistical thing I look at and ponder the data. That would be fun but really probably I would rather spend the money on a Gibson L5 jazz guitar. So I will put it on hold for the moment. I don't need the L5 either but at least I can play it and have much fun. I doubt anyone here has one to sell much less know what it is.............Frank set me straight he had good points.

That's why people buy these kinds of things--they're fun for them to
know this data. I would not want to tell anyone how they should spend
their disposable income even if it's not a way I would want to spend
$600 or so.

It's too bad that this technology has not come down in price to a level
that represents the actual cost of implementing it, but that may occur
at some time in the future.

:-) You can buy a pulse rate monitor for as little as $17 and it
will give a far more accurate indication of how hard you are working
than a power meter.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 5:46:48 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 1 May 2021 07:46:12 -0700, sms
wrote:
On 5/1/2021 7:42 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip

Well I think I have figured this out. I don't need a power meter as I am in shape and know how to get in shape or stay in shape. I don't race at all and I am getting slower although the decline is something I can manage. What I have not managed is my decline in running ability and with Runner's Dystonia it is impossible at times for me to remember how to run.

A power meter would just be a statistical thing I look at and ponder the data. That would be fun but really probably I would rather spend the money on a Gibson L5 jazz guitar. So I will put it on hold for the moment. I don't need the L5 either but at least I can play it and have much fun. I doubt anyone here has one to sell much less know what it is.............Frank set me straight he had good points.

That's why people buy these kinds of things--they're fun for them to
know this data. I would not want to tell anyone how they should spend
their disposable income even if it's not a way I would want to spend
$600 or so.

It's too bad that this technology has not come down in price to a level
that represents the actual cost of implementing it, but that may occur
at some time in the future.
:-) You can buy a pulse rate monitor for as little as $17 and it
will give a far more accurate indication of how hard you are working
than a power meter.

Well not really. Power is work over time, so a power meter will tell you how much work you are doing. Sure, picking nits, but both power and pulse rate are important. If you're producing 10 watts at 170 BPM, you're on death's doorstep. If you're producing 2,000 watts at 170 BPM, you're a pro level sprinter.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sat, 1 May 2021 18:20:59 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 5:46:48 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 1 May 2021 07:46:12 -0700, sms
wrote:
On 5/1/2021 7:42 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip

Well I think I have figured this out. I don't need a power meter as I am in shape and know how to get in shape or stay in shape. I don't race at all and I am getting slower although the decline is something I can manage. What I have not managed is my decline in running ability and with Runner's Dystonia it is impossible at times for me to remember how to run.

A power meter would just be a statistical thing I look at and ponder the data. That would be fun but really probably I would rather spend the money on a Gibson L5 jazz guitar. So I will put it on hold for the moment. I don't need the L5 either but at least I can play it and have much fun. I doubt anyone here has one to sell much less know what it is.............Frank set me straight he had good points.

That's why people buy these kinds of things--they're fun for them to
know this data. I would not want to tell anyone how they should spend
their disposable income even if it's not a way I would want to spend
$600 or so.

It's too bad that this technology has not come down in price to a level
that represents the actual cost of implementing it, but that may occur
at some time in the future.
:-) You can buy a pulse rate monitor for as little as $17 and it
will give a far more accurate indication of how hard you are working
than a power meter.

Well not really. Power is work over time, so a power meter will tell you how much work you are doing. Sure, picking nits, but both power and pulse rate are important. If you're producing 10 watts at 170 BPM, you're on death's doorstep. If you're producing 2,000 watts at 170 BPM, you're a pro level sprinter.

-- Jay Beattie.

Your definition for 'Power" is a bit nebulas. Example: 1 watt = one
joule per second. Usually stated as "Power is the rate with respect to
time at which work is done".

But more important it doesn't give you any indication of what percent
of the power that you are capable of is being generated, which the
heart rate monitor does tell you.

By the way, you need to factor age into that equation as the older you
are the lower the maximum heart rate :-) 220 - 50 years = 170, 220 -
60 = 160, etc.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 1 May 2021 07:46:12 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/1/2021 7:42 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip

Well I think I have figured this out. I don't need a power meter as I
am in shape and know how to get in shape or stay in shape. I don't race
at all and I am getting slower although the decline is something I can
manage. What I have not managed is my decline in running ability and
with Runner's Dystonia it is impossible at times for me to remember how to run.

A power meter would just be a statistical thing I look at and ponder
the data. That would be fun but really probably I would rather spend
the money on a Gibson L5 jazz guitar. So I will put it on hold for the
moment. I don't need the L5 either but at least I can play it and have
much fun. I doubt anyone here has one to sell much less know what it
is.............Frank set me straight he had good points.

That's why people buy these kinds of things--they're fun for them to
know this data. I would not want to tell anyone how they should spend
their disposable income even if it's not a way I would want to spend
$600 or so.

It's too bad that this technology has not come down in price to a level
that represents the actual cost of implementing it, but that may occur
at some time in the future.

:-) You can buy a pulse rate monitor for as little as $17 and it
will give a far more accurate indication of how hard you are working
than a power meter.

Agreed, with the caveat that how hard you’re working may have little
correlation to the absolute amount of power you are putting out.

On Sun, 2 May 2021 02:20:40 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 1 May 2021 07:46:12 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/1/2021 7:42 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip

Well I think I have figured this out. I don't need a power meter as I
am in shape and know how to get in shape or stay in shape. I don't race
at all and I am getting slower although the decline is something I can
manage. What I have not managed is my decline in running ability and
with Runner's Dystonia it is impossible at times for me to remember how to run.

A power meter would just be a statistical thing I look at and ponder
the data. That would be fun but really probably I would rather spend
the money on a Gibson L5 jazz guitar. So I will put it on hold for the
moment. I don't need the L5 either but at least I can play it and have
much fun. I doubt anyone here has one to sell much less know what it
is.............Frank set me straight he had good points.

That's why people buy these kinds of things--they're fun for them to
know this data. I would not want to tell anyone how they should spend
their disposable income even if it's not a way I would want to spend
$600 or so.

It's too bad that this technology has not come down in price to a level
that represents the actual cost of implementing it, but that may occur
at some time in the future.

:-) You can buy a pulse rate monitor for as little as $17 and it
will give a far more accurate indication of how hard you are working
than a power meter.

Agreed, with the caveat that how hard you’re working may have little
correlation to the absolute amount of power you are putting out.

Well no, but in real life each individual has some maximum amount of
force that he/she/it can produce which can be measured in Watts,(
jules x 1 second) but the amount of work that he/she/it can produce
for any length of time is a totally different figure. If for no other
reason than instantaneous force is almost always anaerobic while
sustained force is aerobic.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Op zondag 2 mei 2021 om 00:54:26 UTC+2 schreef :
On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 11:19:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op zaterdag 1 mei 2021 om 19:36:16 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 7:57:05 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/1/2021 3:42 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
What happened here is because of E bikesfor a lot of people biking became a hobby because they don't get (too) tired anymore. There are pelotons E bikers now of people 60 yr and older. That is all good, but the problem is that they don't pay attention, always ride two abreast even if it is not wise and a lot of them have a hearing problem. I'm still in a shape that I go faster which means I have to fright my way through them. On a nice Sunday afternoon this is almost impossible without getting irritated now and then. I adapt and chose to ride outside the 'rush hours', but they got scarce. The numbers of people killed in traffic went up the last years here, mainly because the people on E bikes can't handle their E bike in the current traffic.
I've read about the increased number of crashes and deaths of people
(especially older ones) on E-bikes.

I know one older woman with many decades of club riding experience. She
bought an E-bike specifically to allow her to keep up on club rides, but
so far is afraid to use it except on solo rides until she gets more used
to it. She says it's less controllable.

I haven't tried one yet, but I've heard that there is sometimes a surge
in power that is surprising, and that sometimes the motor continues to
produce power for a second when the rider has stopped pedaling. (I
suppose that depends on the manufacturer.) Can others here verify that?
Most ebikes have power settings and software that moderate the amount of motor assist depending on the gear and rider input, so if you take my wife's Vado, select power level 3, put it in the smallest cog and hit it, the thing feels like an e-motorcycle. Riding it that way is not good for the battery or the motor, but even with maximum motor assist, the bike is not dangerous or hard to control. If you put the bike on power level 1 and pick a gear appropriate to the terrain, the assist is like "normal guy with tailwind." That is how the bike should be ridden for maximum battery and motor life. My wife does not feel imperiled riding with me or my son or with her neighborhood old lady ebike posse. Her speed is notable only going up hill, and on the flats, she is JRA at a nice clip that she could not accomplish without some motor assist.

The problem with ebikes in a commuter pack is the speed differential and the fact that a lot of people like to hit the maximum power setting, drop it in a low gear and ride it like a motorcycle among other cyclists. That's an obvious problem riding with slower, non-motorized riders and is not particularly good for the bike's battery, motor or drivetrain either.

-- Jay Beattie.
Jay, Frank I was talking about this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrrz...117gFDM7U ePg

This clip was from 2013. Currently all of these people are on E bikes; all of them. To be fair the groups are not as large as you see in the clip. Most of the times 4-10 people.

Lou
`
Lou, how old would you estimate the people in that group to be? Motor vehicles (including e-bikes) have a lot more rake and trail in them so that you can't power the wheel over and go over the handlebars. This is the source of people riding these bikes looking very comfortable. Handling is slow purposely. I was dropped several times by young ladies that appeared to be non-bike riders who were sitting bolt upright and talking back and forth to one another without a thought of having to steer to stay in their lane.


Here in The Netherlands almost everyone over 50 years old not riding a road bike or ATB for exercise is on a E bike or the next bike they buy will be an E bike.

Lou

John B. wrote:
On Sun, 2 May 2021 02:20:40 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 1 May 2021 07:46:12 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/1/2021 7:42 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip

Well I think I have figured this out. I don't need a power meter as I
am in shape and know how to get in shape or stay in shape. I don't race
at all and I am getting slower although the decline is something I can
manage. What I have not managed is my decline in running ability and
with Runner's Dystonia it is impossible at times for me to remember how to run.

A power meter would just be a statistical thing I look at and ponder
the data. That would be fun but really probably I would rather spend
the money on a Gibson L5 jazz guitar. So I will put it on hold for the
moment. I don't need the L5 either but at least I can play it and have
much fun. I doubt anyone here has one to sell much less know what it
is.............Frank set me straight he had good points.

That's why people buy these kinds of things--they're fun for them to
know this data. I would not want to tell anyone how they should spend
their disposable income even if it's not a way I would want to spend
$600 or so.

It's too bad that this technology has not come down in price to a level
that represents the actual cost of implementing it, but that may occur
at some time in the future.

:-) You can buy a pulse rate monitor for as little as $17 and it
will give a far more accurate indication of how hard you are working
than a power meter.

Agreed, with the caveat that how hard youÂ’re working may have little
correlation to the absolute amount of power you are putting out.

Well no, but in real life each individual has some maximum amount of
force that he/she/it can produce which can be measured in Watts,(
jules x 1 second) but the amount of work that he/she/it can produce
for any length of time is a totally different figure. If for no other
reason than instantaneous force is almost always anaerobic while
sustained force is aerobic.

I’m not sure you got my point. If I’m riding at a heart rate of 150 bpm
today and I ride at a heart rate of 150 bpm tomorrow, there’s no guarantee
that I’m putting out the same amount of power both times. Even during a
ride, heart rates will tend to drift upwards at a constant power level.
While a HRM will give you some indication of how hard you’re working
(incidentally, so will just answering the question “How hard does it feel
like you’re working?�), if you want an accurate, absolute, repeatable
measure of how much work you are doing, a power meter is the way to go.
There are other ways to estimate power (out and back time trial, speed up a
known hill), but a power meter will give you real numbers in exchange for a
non-trivial amount of money. Whether that is worth it to you, is of course
up to you to decide.

On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 6:56:13 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 1 May 2021 18:20:59 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:
On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 5:46:48 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 1 May 2021 07:46:12 -0700, sms
wrote:
On 5/1/2021 7:42 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip

Well I think I have figured this out. I don't need a power meter as I am in shape and know how to get in shape or stay in shape. I don't race at all and I am getting slower although the decline is something I can manage. What I have not managed is my decline in running ability and with Runner's Dystonia it is impossible at times for me to remember how to run.

A power meter would just be a statistical thing I look at and ponder the data. That would be fun but really probably I would rather spend the money on a Gibson L5 jazz guitar. So I will put it on hold for the moment. I don't need the L5 either but at least I can play it and have much fun. I doubt anyone here has one to sell much less know what it is.............Frank set me straight he had good points.

That's why people buy these kinds of things--they're fun for them to
know this data. I would not want to tell anyone how they should spend
their disposable income even if it's not a way I would want to spend
$600 or so.

It's too bad that this technology has not come down in price to a level
that represents the actual cost of implementing it, but that may occur
at some time in the future.
:-) You can buy a pulse rate monitor for as little as $17 and it
will give a far more accurate indication of how hard you are working
than a power meter.

Well not really. Power is work over time, so a power meter will tell you how much work you are doing. Sure, picking nits, but both power and pulse rate are important. If you're producing 10 watts at 170 BPM, you're on death's doorstep. If you're producing 2,000 watts at 170 BPM, you're a pro level sprinter.

-- Jay Beattie.
Your definition for 'Power" is a bit nebulas. Example: 1 watt = one
joule per second. Usually stated as "Power is the rate with respect to
time at which work is done".

But more important it doesn't give you any indication of what percent
of the power that you are capable of is being generated, which the
heart rate monitor does tell you.

By the way, you need to factor age into that equation as the older you
are the lower the maximum heart rate :-) 220 - 50 years = 170, 220 -
60 = 160, etc.

My definition of power as work over time is short hand for the definition used in physics: https://tinyurl.com/yupbyh4e My point was just that knowing one's pulse doesn't really say a lot in terms of the amount of work being performed by that person. It gives you a lot of other information and is a helpful training tool in other ways, but a $17 heart rate monitor is not going to give you power information or replace a power meter.

Everyone should get a Stages power meter even if they don't need one. They're so cheap, you could use the arm as a stir stick, and it would strengthen the economy.

-- Jay Beattie.

Op zondag 2 mei 2021 om 17:57:26 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 6:56:13 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 1 May 2021 18:20:59 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:
On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 5:46:48 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 1 May 2021 07:46:12 -0700, sms
wrote:
On 5/1/2021 7:42 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip

Well I think I have figured this out. I don't need a power meter as I am in shape and know how to get in shape or stay in shape. I don't race at all and I am getting slower although the decline is something I can manage. What I have not managed is my decline in running ability and with Runner's Dystonia it is impossible at times for me to remember how to run.

A power meter would just be a statistical thing I look at and ponder the data. That would be fun but really probably I would rather spend the money on a Gibson L5 jazz guitar. So I will put it on hold for the moment.. I don't need the L5 either but at least I can play it and have much fun. I doubt anyone here has one to sell much less know what it is.............Frank set me straight he had good points.

That's why people buy these kinds of things--they're fun for them to
know this data. I would not want to tell anyone how they should spend
their disposable income even if it's not a way I would want to spend
$600 or so.

It's too bad that this technology has not come down in price to a level
that represents the actual cost of implementing it, but that may occur
at some time in the future.
:-) You can buy a pulse rate monitor for as little as $17 and it
will give a far more accurate indication of how hard you are working
than a power meter.

Well not really. Power is work over time, so a power meter will tell you how much work you are doing. Sure, picking nits, but both power and pulse rate are important. If you're producing 10 watts at 170 BPM, you're on death's doorstep. If you're producing 2,000 watts at 170 BPM, you're a pro level sprinter.

-- Jay Beattie.
Your definition for 'Power" is a bit nebulas. Example: 1 watt = one
joule per second. Usually stated as "Power is the rate with respect to
time at which work is done".

But more important it doesn't give you any indication of what percent
of the power that you are capable of is being generated, which the
heart rate monitor does tell you.

By the way, you need to factor age into that equation as the older you
are the lower the maximum heart rate :-) 220 - 50 years = 170, 220 -
60 = 160, etc.
My definition of power as work over time is short hand for the definition used in physics: https://tinyurl.com/yupbyh4e My point was just that knowing one's pulse doesn't really say a lot in terms of the amount of work being performed by that person. It gives you a lot of other information and is a helpful training tool in other ways, but a $17 heart rate monitor is not going to give you power information or replace a power meter.

Everyone should get a Stages power meter even if they don't need one. They're so cheap, you could use the arm as a stir stick, and it would strengthen the economy.

-- Jay Beattie.

Just looking at the figure of your HR and/or power doesn't do the trick. You have to interpret the data to turn them into information. Here is the data of todays group ride. For me it was an easy ride were I only pushed myself during about 15 minutes and dropped half of the group just before the coffee stop. After the coffee stop it was a social ride again.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/LSvLHhVB8B7Ye3Ws7

Besides a delay there is a very good correlation between the heart rate and power. The ratio between them however changes with in- or decreasing fitness and thats is what your are interested in.

Lou

On Sat, 1 May 2021 11:24:11 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
wrote:

Typical E bike rider her in the Netherlands:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8XJ5uJepSASL4Mhz7
Lou

More of the same:
"The use of electric bikes in The Netherlands continues to grow"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Y_MhY_PG8

However, seems odd. This 2019 promotional bicycle video doesn't show
or mention a single eBike:
"Dutch Cycling"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayPDlDi9Ug4


--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558