Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more compact with shorter rides
(1-2 km) for work and errands. American urban areas tend to be spread
out so that we can all have our half acre of lawn or more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from the library, our
dentist, the post office, the pharmacy and one convenience/beer store.
Hardware, groceries, restaurants, credit union or anything else is
further. I'm fine with that, but most Americans (probably like most
Europeans) will never ride 10 miles to get to and from their credit union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi, 20mi, big deal. But
can't say about today as this was 30 years ago.

The guy I'll be riding with this week is also very different. It'll
probably be around 40mi round trip. For me to have a freshly brewed
Pilsener, he'll probably have a Porter (I am brewing one while writing
this).

The week after it'll probably be 30mi, most of it on rough singletrack,
to get to Solid Ground Brewing.

https://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...p7IXCfHg/o.jpg


We really
don't want to have to get to know our neighbors (while decrying the
deterioration of civil society).

That is a sad truth. It's changed greatly from when I was a kid, long
ago. It's changed even since we moved into this house, over 35 years ago.

The neighborhood recently went through some churning, with several
long-time residents either dying or moving out. The dude who moved in
across the street showed no interest in anything more than "Oh, hi" when
I went over to welcome him to the neighborhood. Tellingly, when he
arrived, a new wireless router appeared in the menus. It's named
"badassmotherf**cker". Charming.

Other new couples give no more than a nod as we walk or bike past. One
nice young couple moved in and were friendly, but moved back out after
less than three years. It generally seems to take about three or four
years to get past the "Oh hi" stage and into real conversations and
social contact.

I have to believe that when people had front porches and sidewalks, when
people traveled without being locked in a glass and steel box,
neighborhood relationships happened more quickly and more often.


Join a wagon trains and head to the Wild West.

We moved here from Europe and all I can say is that it is remarkably
easier to get acquainted with neighbors. We ride together, barbecue
together, share homebrew, recipes, do pack walks with our our dogs.
Germany was mostly kind of formal, people needed planning before they
got together. Here, someone is fed up with yard work, turns off the weed
eater and has a coffee or beer with a neighbor. No sidewalks but most of
us have front porches and those get used.

Normally my dog walk in the morning takes 1h. But it can also take 2h,
same distance.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 7/10/2018 5:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more compact with shorter rides
(1-2 km) for work and errands.Â* American urban areas tend to be spread
out so that we can all have our half acre of lawn or more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from the library, our
dentist, the post office, the pharmacy and one convenience/beer store.
Hardware, groceries, restaurants, credit union or anything else is
further. I'm fine with that, but most Americans (probably like most
Europeans) will never ride 10 miles to get to and from their credit
union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi, 20mi, big deal. But
can't say about today as this was 30 years ago.

Sorry, but if you mean that most Dutch and Belgians used to ride
something like 20 miles per day, I don't believe you.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2018-07-11 13:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2018 5:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more compact with shorter
rides
(1-2 km) for work and errands. American urban areas tend to be spread
out so that we can all have our half acre of lawn or more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from the library, our
dentist, the post office, the pharmacy and one convenience/beer store.
Hardware, groceries, restaurants, credit union or anything else is
further. I'm fine with that, but most Americans (probably like most
Europeans) will never ride 10 miles to get to and from their credit
union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi, 20mi, big deal. But
can't say about today as this was 30 years ago.

Sorry, but if you mean that most Dutch and Belgians used to ride
something like 20 miles per day, I don't believe you.


Note that I didn't say "most of the population". Most of my friends,
yes. Or rather, nearly all of them. Most of the population I can't say,
of course.

Very popular was the "kroegen tocht" (pub run) by road bike, especially
among Belgians which is why I preferred to ride with them. 30-40mi with
here and there a beer. Dutch road bikers were often too competitive and
only concentrated on the sports aspects, many wouldn't ever consider
visiting a pub because that cost "valuable minutes".

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:29:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-11 13:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2018 5:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more compact with shorter
rides
(1-2 km) for work and errands. American urban areas tend to be spread
out so that we can all have our half acre of lawn or more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from the library, our
dentist, the post office, the pharmacy and one convenience/beer store..
Hardware, groceries, restaurants, credit union or anything else is
further. I'm fine with that, but most Americans (probably like most
Europeans) will never ride 10 miles to get to and from their credit
union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi, 20mi, big deal. But
can't say about today as this was 30 years ago.

Sorry, but if you mean that most Dutch and Belgians used to ride
something like 20 miles per day, I don't believe you.


Note that I didn't say "most of the population". Most of my friends,
yes. Or rather, nearly all of them. Most of the population I can't say,
of course.

Very popular was the "kroegen tocht" (pub run) by road bike, especially
among Belgians which is why I preferred to ride with them. 30-40mi with
here and there a beer. Dutch road bikers were often too competitive and
only concentrated on the sports aspects, many wouldn't ever consider
visiting a pub because that cost "valuable minutes".


Those Dutch guys should be stopping every five miles for a beer. What are they thinking?

And when we're talking about "the Dutch and Belgians," the assumption is that we're talking about a country average and not your cohort of pub-crawlers. I could say Oregonians ride hundreds of miles a week because that's what my friends do, but it hardly describes the state average.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 12:29:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-11 13:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2018 5:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more compact with shorter
rides
(1-2 km) for work and errands. American urban areas tend to be spread
out so that we can all have our half acre of lawn or more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from the library, our
dentist, the post office, the pharmacy and one convenience/beer store.
Hardware, groceries, restaurants, credit union or anything else is
further. I'm fine with that, but most Americans (probably like most
Europeans) will never ride 10 miles to get to and from their credit
union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi, 20mi, big deal. But
can't say about today as this was 30 years ago.

Sorry, but if you mean that most Dutch and Belgians used to ride
something like 20 miles per day, I don't believe you.


Note that I didn't say "most of the population". Most of my friends,
yes. Or rather, nearly all of them. Most of the population I can't say,
of course.

I suspect most Americans posting here could make the same statement, if by "The
Americans" we really mean "my riding friends." It says nothing about the
population as a whole. Instead, it describes severe selection bias.

- Frank Krygowski

On 13/07/2018 3:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:29:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-11 13:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2018 5:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more compact with shorter
rides
(1-2 km) for work and errands. American urban areas tend to be spread
out so that we can all have our half acre of lawn or more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from the library, our
dentist, the post office, the pharmacy and one convenience/beer store.
Hardware, groceries, restaurants, credit union or anything else is
further. I'm fine with that, but most Americans (probably like most
Europeans) will never ride 10 miles to get to and from their credit
union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi, 20mi, big deal. But
can't say about today as this was 30 years ago.

Sorry, but if you mean that most Dutch and Belgians used to ride
something like 20 miles per day, I don't believe you.


Note that I didn't say "most of the population". Most of my friends,
yes. Or rather, nearly all of them. Most of the population I can't say,
of course.

Very popular was the "kroegen tocht" (pub run) by road bike, especially
among Belgians which is why I preferred to ride with them. 30-40mi with
here and there a beer. Dutch road bikers were often too competitive and
only concentrated on the sports aspects, many wouldn't ever consider
visiting a pub because that cost "valuable minutes".


Those Dutch guys should be stopping every five miles for a beer. What are they thinking?

And when we're talking about "the Dutch and Belgians," the assumption is that we're talking about a country average and not your cohort of pub-crawlers. I could say Oregonians ride hundreds of miles a week because that's what my friends do, but it hardly describes the state average.



Wait, I thought most people in northern California went to work on
single track fighting saber tooth er mountain lions, equipped with only
a largish rock and a roofing nail as tools but carrying multiple
growlers of the local plonk. Isn't that what they do "out there?"

I figured I was much too competitive to to be wasting "minutes" stopping
for a beer. We usually do that after the 100k or so...

On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 1:09:16 PM UTC-7, duane wrote:
On 13/07/2018 3:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:29:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-11 13:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2018 5:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more compact with shorter
rides
(1-2 km) for work and errands. American urban areas tend to be spread
out so that we can all have our half acre of lawn or more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from the library, our
dentist, the post office, the pharmacy and one convenience/beer store.
Hardware, groceries, restaurants, credit union or anything else is
further. I'm fine with that, but most Americans (probably like most
Europeans) will never ride 10 miles to get to and from their credit
union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi, 20mi, big deal. But
can't say about today as this was 30 years ago.

Sorry, but if you mean that most Dutch and Belgians used to ride
something like 20 miles per day, I don't believe you.


Note that I didn't say "most of the population". Most of my friends,
yes. Or rather, nearly all of them. Most of the population I can't say,
of course.

Very popular was the "kroegen tocht" (pub run) by road bike, especially
among Belgians which is why I preferred to ride with them. 30-40mi with
here and there a beer. Dutch road bikers were often too competitive and
only concentrated on the sports aspects, many wouldn't ever consider
visiting a pub because that cost "valuable minutes".


Those Dutch guys should be stopping every five miles for a beer. What are they thinking?

And when we're talking about "the Dutch and Belgians," the assumption is that we're talking about a country average and not your cohort of pub-crawlers. I could say Oregonians ride hundreds of miles a week because that's what my friends do, but it hardly describes the state average.



Wait, I thought most people in northern California went to work on
single track fighting saber tooth er mountain lions, equipped with only
a largish rock and a roofing nail as tools but carrying multiple
growlers of the local plonk. Isn't that what they do "out there?"

I figured I was much too competitive to to be wasting "minutes" stopping
for a beer. We usually do that after the 100k or so...

The obvious premise is that "if you don't ride like me, you're a fanatical dope." I feel the same way now that I'm old and slow. When my son rides me off his wheel (every ride), I just say "oh, you only care about the sports aspects . . . I'm enjoying the scenery. Look, a flower!" The funny thing is that being super fit, he sees far more flowers than I do. I mostly see his rear wheel fading into the distance -- and that dark place just before heart failure.

How is it that someone can get a two minute gap in about ten seconds? It's bizarre. I'm going out with the old guys this weekend. It will make me feel better about life. With them, "talking pace" means actually talking and not gasping for air.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2018-07-13 12:49, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:29:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-11 13:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2018 5:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more compact with
shorter rides (1-2 km) for work and errands. American
urban areas tend to be spread out so that we can all have
our half acre of lawn or more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from the
library, our dentist, the post office, the pharmacy and one
convenience/beer store. Hardware, groceries, restaurants,
credit union or anything else is further. I'm fine with that,
but most Americans (probably like most Europeans) will never
ride 10 miles to get to and from their credit union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi, 20mi, big
deal. But can't say about today as this was 30 years ago.

Sorry, but if you mean that most Dutch and Belgians used to ride
something like 20 miles per day, I don't believe you.


Note that I didn't say "most of the population". Most of my
friends, yes. Or rather, nearly all of them. Most of the population
I can't say, of course.

Very popular was the "kroegen tocht" (pub run) by road bike,
especially among Belgians which is why I preferred to ride with
them. 30-40mi with here and there a beer. Dutch road bikers were
often too competitive and only concentrated on the sports aspects,
many wouldn't ever consider visiting a pub because that cost
"valuable minutes".


Those Dutch guys should be stopping every five miles for a beer. What
are they thinking?


Well, Belgian beer is better. As long as it comes from an abbey.


And when we're talking about "the Dutch and Belgians," the assumption
is that we're talking about a country average and not your cohort of
pub-crawlers. I could say Oregonians ride hundreds of miles a week
because that's what my friends do, but it hardly describes the state
average.


It was a large number of people. Since cycling was just a mode of
transportation for me during my university days I didn't have "cycling
friends" like I do now. They were other students or just people who
lived in town and I met in the local pubs. They generally had no
problems heading over to this other pub in Heerlen, Maastricht or where
ever, all two-digit miles. Many of them on their heavy Batavus bikes
because that was the only kind they got.

Where I live now I have a hard time convincing anyone to go. "30 miles?
You must be crazy, it's 95F out there!". Meantime I found a rider in
Folsom who is very different, he never turns down a ride.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-07-13 13:01, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 12:29:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-11 13:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2018 5:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more compact with shorter
rides
(1-2 km) for work and errands. American urban areas tend to be spread
out so that we can all have our half acre of lawn or more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from the library, our
dentist, the post office, the pharmacy and one convenience/beer store.
Hardware, groceries, restaurants, credit union or anything else is
further. I'm fine with that, but most Americans (probably like most
Europeans) will never ride 10 miles to get to and from their credit
union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi, 20mi, big deal. But
can't say about today as this was 30 years ago.

Sorry, but if you mean that most Dutch and Belgians used to ride
something like 20 miles per day, I don't believe you.


Note that I didn't say "most of the population". Most of my friends,
yes. Or rather, nearly all of them. Most of the population I can't say,
of course.

I suspect most Americans posting here could make the same statement, if by "The
Americans" we really mean "my riding friends." It says nothing about the
population as a whole. Instead, it describes severe selection bias.


That was exactly the difference. The Dutch and Belgians were not my
cycling friends, just regular friends. Here, while most of them do own a
garage queen or two or three, they routinely turn down rides. Especially
anything beyond 10 miles or if it includes stretches of county road sans
bike lane.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-07-13 13:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 1:09:16 PM UTC-7, duane wrote:
On 13/07/2018 3:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:29:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-11 13:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2018 5:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more compact
with shorter rides (1-2 km) for work and errands.
American urban areas tend to be spread out so that we
can all have our half acre of lawn or more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from the
library, our dentist, the post office, the pharmacy and
one convenience/beer store. Hardware, groceries,
restaurants, credit union or anything else is further.
I'm fine with that, but most Americans (probably like
most Europeans) will never ride 10 miles to get to and
from their credit union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi, 20mi,
big deal. But can't say about today as this was 30 years
ago.

Sorry, but if you mean that most Dutch and Belgians used to
ride something like 20 miles per day, I don't believe you.


Note that I didn't say "most of the population". Most of my
friends, yes. Or rather, nearly all of them. Most of the
population I can't say, of course.

Very popular was the "kroegen tocht" (pub run) by road bike,
especially among Belgians which is why I preferred to ride with
them. 30-40mi with here and there a beer. Dutch road bikers
were often too competitive and only concentrated on the sports
aspects, many wouldn't ever consider visiting a pub because
that cost "valuable minutes".


Those Dutch guys should be stopping every five miles for a beer.
What are they thinking?

And when we're talking about "the Dutch and Belgians," the
assumption is that we're talking about a country average and not
your cohort of pub-crawlers. I could say Oregonians ride hundreds
of miles a week because that's what my friends do, but it hardly
describes the state average.



Wait, I thought most people in northern California went to work on
single track fighting saber tooth er mountain lions, equipped with
only a largish rock and a roofing nail as tools but carrying
multiple growlers of the local plonk. Isn't that what they do "out
there?"

I figured I was much too competitive to to be wasting "minutes"
stopping for a beer. We usually do that after the 100k or so...


Then you likely missed a lot of great pubs. We often plan our routes so
we hit a brewpub towards the end of the ride. Like the Fair Oaks Brewpub
yesterday:

https://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...SJMs97RQ/o.jpg


The obvious premise is that "if you don't ride like me, you're a
fanatical dope." I feel the same way now that I'm old and slow. When
my son rides me off his wheel (every ride), I just say "oh, you only
care about the sports aspects . . . I'm enjoying the scenery. Look,
a flower!" The funny thing is that being super fit, he sees far more
flowers than I do. I mostly see his rear wheel fading into the
distance -- and that dark place just before heart failure.

How is it that someone can get a two minute gap in about ten seconds?
It's bizarre. I'm going out with the old guys this weekend. It will
make me feel better about life. With them, "talking pace" means
actually talking and not gasping for air.


Admit to yourself that you, I and probably most others in this NG are
now in the geezer category. Past prime, or whatever. No matter how hard
we train we will plateau sooner than we hope for. So just enjoy that flower.

When I ride with friends I always tell them that should I pull away from
them not to redline themselves, I'll wait. Also to ask for a break
anytime they feel it would be good. It's not a race.

Sometimes it's not just the young whippersnappers who disappear in the
distance. I have a client where the president cycles and he is well
above 60. I rode with him. Once. He really puts on the coals and after
going at 25mph for about 25mins my tongue almost hung on the handlebar.
Yet he looked like he just did a walk in the park. So I politely bowed
out and rode the rest of the trip by myself, slooowly. I was done.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/