Hozan spoke threader

Hello, all!

Before threading stainless spokes with the Hozan C-700 spoke threader, which
says in the instructions that it works on stainless spokes and comes preset for
14 gage spokes, do you have to anneal the spoke by heating it red in a torch
flame and allowing it to cool slowly?

I say this because I am familiar with the work hardening produced in many
metals by cold working, e.g. wire drawing, and wonder if my seemingly
inconsistent results with this threader is due to it being provided with steel
wheels instead of carbide, or whether I should be annealing the spoke ends
first.

This threader is supposed to have carbide wheels for threading staineless
spokes, isn't it?

I got mine from Alfred E. Bike for $75 and I can't believe it has the proper
carbide wheels. It seems like they replaced the head. As shipped, it wasn't
even set for 14 gage spokes! The adjusting nut was totally slacked off.

I am looking at about two hours of ruining one test spoke after another as I
sneak up on the 14 gage setting by adjusting the nut the recommended 5 degrees
at a time, one-sizth of the arc between the point of a nut and the flat of a
nut. That is, there are six flats and six points marking 12 points around the
circle, but the instructions say not to adjust the nut more than 1/72 of a
circle at a time. What a freakin' hassle.

Anyway, what I am most interested is in the carbide wheels. They'd be dark
grey, wouldn't they? Mine are light silver grey and I am almost certain they
are steel.

I should test one with a magnet, but it'd better be a mighty clean magnet, or
I'll get filings on the wheel and get them crammed into the spoke surface. Yuk.
Just touching the steel wheel with a magnet might magnetize it, causing it to
attract iron and steel filings, ruining the threader operation.


Yours,
Doug Goncz ( ftp://users.aol.com/DGoncz/incoming )
Student member SAE for one year.
I love: Dona, Jeff, Kim, Mom, Neelix, Tasha, and Teri, alphabetically.
I drive: A double-step Thunderbolt with 657% range.

Doug Goncz wrote:
Hello, all!

Before threading stainless spokes with the Hozan C-700 spoke
threader, which
says in the instructions that it works on stainless spokes and comes
preset for
14 gage spokes, do you have to anneal the spoke by heating it red in
a torch
flame and allowing it to cool slowly?

No ... the amount of work hardening going into a spoke threader is not
all that large when compared to all the various draws the wire went
through before it was made into spokes. if you were to anneal it you
would end up with a much softer zone in the spoke... (not to mention
the overall inaccuracy of the heat it with a torch method of annealing
steel) AFAICT the alloy is 304



This threader is supposed to have carbide wheels for threading
stainless
spokes, isn't it?

Mine had dark black/gray wheels I don't remember them being made of
carbide though I suspect they were not ...


I got mine from Alfred E. Bike for $75 and I can't believe it has the
proper
carbide wheels. It seems like they replaced the head. As shipped, it
wasn't
even set for 14 gage spokes! The adjusting nut was totally slacked
off.

I am looking at about two ...

snip

...adjust the nut more than 1/72 of a circle at a time. What a
freakin' hassle.

It was a bit of a pain to set up but once you got used to it it worked
well enough... just a tip get a good micrometer and measure the OD
(outside diameter) of a commercial spoke, make rough adjustments until
your spoke OD is close then worry about finer ones... (better yet get a
shadowgraph measure thread ID (internal diameter) then you can really
be sure! they are only $8K or so grin)


Anyway, what I am most interested is in the carbide wheels. They'd be
dark
grey, wouldn't they? Mine are light silver grey and I am almost
certain they
are steel.


Not all carbides are dark grey (though most are), again I would be
surprised to find out they were supposed to be carbide, even the best
comercial thread roll dies are M42 or T15 (tool steels). Carbide can be
fragile in some applications and with stainless it is prone to gauling.

I would not worry overmuch about them being silver grey .. though at
that price i would suspect something was up as well... the tool was
over $200 CDN when I bought the one we used.

(Please note I don't know if they are supposed to be Carbide or not I
simply suspect not)

( Doug Goncz ) wrote:

Before threading stainless spokes with the Hozan C-700 spoke threader, which
says in the instructions that it works on stainless spokes and comes preset for
14 gage spokes, do you have to anneal the spoke by heating it red in a torch
flame and allowing it to cool slowly?

No. Don't do that-- spoke threads are cold formed on fully hardened
stainless steel wire. (FYI, most stainless steel is not heat
hardenable and anneals fully regardless of cooling rate.)

I say this because I am familiar with the work hardening produced in many
metals by cold working, e.g. wire drawing, and wonder if my seemingly
inconsistent results with this threader is due to it being provided with steel
wheels instead of carbide, or whether I should be annealing the spoke ends
first.

I expect if you anneal first, you will get beautiful threads on spokes
that break quickly with use.

Anyway, what I am most interested is in the carbide wheels. They'd be dark
grey, wouldn't they? Mine are light silver grey and I am almost certain they
are steel.

I should test one with a magnet,

Cemented carbide is composed of some 8% to 10% metallic cobalt, which
is strongly magnetic. I find that the attraction between a NbFeB
magnet and carbide tooling is approximately half as strong as between
the same magnet and M42 molybdenum-cobalt tool steel, and roughly
one-quarter as strong as its attraction to M2 molybdenum-tungsten
(HSS) tool steel.

Chalo Colina

Hello, all!

Without a working spoke threader, I decided to try the OEM spokes from
the smaller flange hub which was laced three cross, laced onto the
bigger hub four cross.

It worked!

Er, well, it came close. Spoke penetration is low, not full, but the
wheel is rideable.

I will thread a spoke into the nipples from the outside, using it as a
measuring gage, and buy slightly longer spokes that will fit right,
instead of shortening the OEM spokes and threading them.

I will return the spoke threader if AE Bike will take it back. I
believe I have a reasonable case. It's supposed to work right out of
the box.

By the way, I did four cross with no cross, that is, side to side four
cross, but on each side, all "pull" or "push" spokes. I did this on my
Peugot and it has worked just fine for hundreds of miles. It all
depends on hub windup, and this is so small it is simply not
measureable. The hub is effectively a rigid body.

This makes plucking spokes easier, to even tension during building
since they vibrate freely, and makes replacing spokes easier, but does
allow vibration during riding, which can loosen spokes. I will be
adding shell covers to make an aero disc wheel soon, of clear 0.020
inch thick Lexan. These will damp the vibration.

I'm off to ride close to home today.

Yours,

Doug Goncz
Bless me, father, for I have sinned.
It has been 7 1/2 hours since my last cigarette.