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Miche Primato Pista bits



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 2nd 03, 09:28 AM
Suzy Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Miche Primato Pista bits

Hi all,

I did a nice 70km ride on the weekend with a bunch of local troublemakers,
one of whom rode the whole time without once coasting. This strange
behaviour got me to thinking, I've got an old steel roadie in the garage
with those much sought after horizontal dropouts, and a rear triangle that
was brazed together when five speed freewheels were plentiful, that's been
quietly gathering dust since I built my go faster aluminium massively
overgeared clicky lever bike.

So I thought about it a bit, and figured it'd be lots of fun to put track
cranks and wheels on it, and throw away that nasty back brake for ever, and
see if I can break myself of this terrible coasting habit. Further down the
track (pun entirely intended) I could go and talk to a framebuilder and get
a real track frame (or perhaps even a box of tubes and lugs), put my shiny
new cranks and wheels on it, and see how much I can scare myself going
around in circles (but always pedalling of course).

In any case, I cast around on the net looking for suitable candidates, and
decided Record is ridiculously expensive, as is Dura-Ace. Next down the
list seems to be the Miche Primato bits, which seem at first glance to
strike a good compromise between shinyness and expense. Are they as nice as
they look? I see they use cartridge bearings. What do I do when said
bearings disintegrate? I'm used to my nice Campy cup & cone hubs where one
simply pulls everything apart and gives it all a scrub and some nice new
grease occasionally, and one can buy new balls and new cones should the need
arise.

The next issue is that the cranks are 135mm PCD, whereas most other track
cranks seem to be 144. Is this likely to cause grief?

Finally, is it an issue squeezing the back end of a 126mm wide bike down to
120mm? It's had 130mm wide wheels forced into it before without significant
complaint.

Anyways, I was hoping to con some advice out of others who use these bits.

Regards,

Suzy


Ads
  #2  
Old September 2nd 03, 10:01 AM
KinkyCowboy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Miche Primato Pista bits

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 08:28:32 GMT, "Suzy Jackson"
wrote:

Hi all,

I did a nice 70km ride on the weekend with a bunch of local troublemakers,
one of whom rode the whole time without once coasting. This strange
behaviour got me to thinking, I've got an old steel roadie in the garage
with those much sought after horizontal dropouts, and a rear triangle that
was brazed together when five speed freewheels were plentiful, that's been
quietly gathering dust since I built my go faster aluminium massively
overgeared clicky lever bike.

So I thought about it a bit, and figured it'd be lots of fun to put track
cranks and wheels on it, and throw away that nasty back brake for ever, and
see if I can break myself of this terrible coasting habit. Further down the
track (pun entirely intended) I could go and talk to a framebuilder and get
a real track frame (or perhaps even a box of tubes and lugs), put my shiny
new cranks and wheels on it, and see how much I can scare myself going
around in circles (but always pedalling of course).

In any case, I cast around on the net looking for suitable candidates, and
decided Record is ridiculously expensive, as is Dura-Ace. Next down the
list seems to be the Miche Primato bits, which seem at first glance to
strike a good compromise between shinyness and expense. Are they as nice as
they look? I see they use cartridge bearings. What do I do when said
bearings disintegrate? I'm used to my nice Campy cup & cone hubs where one
simply pulls everything apart and gives it all a scrub and some nice new
grease occasionally, and one can buy new balls and new cones should the need
arise.


Go to a bearing shop and buy new cartridges for a few dollars each,
and beg borrow or steal the required bearing pullers and puches from a
motorcycle workshop

The next issue is that the cranks are 135mm PCD, whereas most other track
cranks seem to be 144. Is this likely to cause grief?


It's the standard pcd for Campag road race rings now, so getting
replacements is easy (i.e. you can use Miche, Campag, TA, Stronglight
and probably one or two other manufacturers' aftermarket rings, even
if you ever manage to wear out the original, which will take a while).
Even easier to get 130mm (Shimano standard) rings for the even
lovelier (but more expensive) TA track cranks, though.

Finally, is it an issue squeezing the back end of a 126mm wide bike down to
120mm? It's had 130mm wide wheels forced into it before without significant
complaint.


My steel bike hasn't complained about exactly this kind of abuse yet,
and there are hundreds of old steel road frames living daily with the
track hub squeeze, so don't worry

Anyways, I was hoping to con some advice out of others who use these bits.

Regards,

Suzy


Finally, if you do a google search of r.b.t on terms like fixed, track
hubs, Miche etc, you'll find we've been discussingall these things at
great length for years.

Kinky Cowboy

*Your milage may vary
Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts.
  #3  
Old September 2nd 03, 11:01 AM
Bruce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Miche Primato Pista bits

If it's just for fun, then find an old set of wheels from before cassette
hubs - one with a freewheel. Then remove the freewheel and screw on a track
cog. Any wheel that old will likely have narrow spacing. In fact the
wheels on your old bike might work fine. And your cranks will work fine
too.

If you find you like riding a fixed then you can start thinking about
upgrading parts. I always used old stuff sitting around for years. Once I
even used a Biopace chainrring - it's excentricity was dispersed eveningly
so the chain didn't change tension too much.

Fixed can be fun.

-Bruce


"Suzy Jackson" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I did a nice 70km ride on the weekend with a bunch of local troublemakers,
one of whom rode the whole time without once coasting. This strange
behaviour got me to thinking, I've got an old steel roadie in the garage
with those much sought after horizontal dropouts, and a rear triangle that
was brazed together when five speed freewheels were plentiful, that's been
quietly gathering dust since I built my go faster aluminium massively
overgeared clicky lever bike.

So I thought about it a bit, and figured it'd be lots of fun to put track
cranks and wheels on it, and throw away that nasty back brake for ever,

and
see if I can break myself of this terrible coasting habit. Further down

the
track (pun entirely intended) I could go and talk to a framebuilder and

get
a real track frame (or perhaps even a box of tubes and lugs), put my shiny
new cranks and wheels on it, and see how much I can scare myself going
around in circles (but always pedalling of course).

In any case, I cast around on the net looking for suitable candidates, and
decided Record is ridiculously expensive, as is Dura-Ace. Next down the
list seems to be the Miche Primato bits, which seem at first glance to
strike a good compromise between shinyness and expense. Are they as nice

as
they look? I see they use cartridge bearings. What do I do when said
bearings disintegrate? I'm used to my nice Campy cup & cone hubs where

one
simply pulls everything apart and gives it all a scrub and some nice new
grease occasionally, and one can buy new balls and new cones should the

need
arise.

The next issue is that the cranks are 135mm PCD, whereas most other track
cranks seem to be 144. Is this likely to cause grief?

Finally, is it an issue squeezing the back end of a 126mm wide bike down

to
120mm? It's had 130mm wide wheels forced into it before without

significant
complaint.

Anyways, I was hoping to con some advice out of others who use these bits.

Regards,

Suzy




  #4  
Old September 2nd 03, 05:19 PM
David L. Johnson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Miche Primato Pista bits

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 08:28:32 +0000, Suzy Jackson wrote:

... I've got an old steel roadie in the garage
with those much sought after horizontal dropouts, and a rear triangle that
was brazed together when five speed freewheels were plentiful, that's been
quietly gathering dust since I built my go faster aluminium massively
overgeared clicky lever bike.

So I thought about it a bit, and figured it'd be lots of fun to put track
cranks and wheels on it, and throw away that nasty back brake for ever,
and see if I can break myself of this terrible coasting habit. Further
down the track (pun entirely intended) I could go and talk to a
framebuilder and get a real track frame (or perhaps even a box of tubes
and lugs), put my shiny new cranks and wheels on it, and see how much I
can scare myself going around in circles (but always pedalling of

course).

The bike already has darn near everything you need on it. If I were you I
would start with that. Use the place where the inner ring goes and the
chainline will usually be pretty good. My advice would be to get a rear
track hub so you have a lockring, a cog and a chain, and take off all the
stuff that you no longer need. Done.

When you get the real track bike, then is the time to worry about track
cranks and other bits.

In any case, I cast around on the net looking for suitable candidates, and
decided Record is ridiculously expensive, as is Dura-Ace.


There's a surprise

*Next down the
list seems to be the Miche Primato bits, which seem at first glance to
strike a good compromise between shinyness and expense. Are they as nice
as they look?


I haven't seen any up close and personal, so no specific comments. IIRC a
friend uses their hubs and likes them.

I see they use cartridge bearings. What do I do when said
bearings disintegrate?


Buy a new one, This is, to me, a disadvantage. Of course, cartridge bottom
brackets have shown their reliability, so maybe these hubs will last well,
too.

The next issue is that the cranks are 135mm PCD, whereas most other track
cranks seem to be 144. Is this likely to cause grief?


135? Finding new rings will be a RPITA, probably. But if you use 1/8" it
may be a long while before you need to worry about a new ring.

Finally, is it an issue squeezing the back end of a 126mm wide bike down
to 120mm? It's had 130mm wide wheels forced into it before without
significant complaint.


It might be easier to add a couple mm of spacer to either side of the hub.
Not likely to cause trouble.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front
_`\(,_ | of enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of
(_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The
internet has proven this not to be the case.

  #5  
Old September 2nd 03, 07:30 PM
jim beam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Miche Primato Pista bits

If it's just for fun, then find an old set of wheels from before cassette
hubs - one with a freewheel. Then remove the freewheel and screw on a track
cog.


i wouldn't do that - you can't get a lockring to stay on. the one time
you really need to backpedal effectively, it'll unscrew.

i know - i have a scar from when i encountered this issue as a kid.

jb

  #6  
Old September 2nd 03, 07:51 PM
Benjamin Lewis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Miche Primato Pista bits

jim beam wrote:

If it's just for fun, then find an old set of wheels from before
cassette hubs - one with a freewheel. Then remove the freewheel and
screw on a track cog.


i wouldn't do that - you can't get a lockring to stay on. the one time
you really need to backpedal effectively, it'll unscrew.


If this is a worry, you could leave the rear brake on until you decide to
upgrade to a real track hub.

I'm not claiming it never happens, but I don't recall ever being in a
situation where I've needed to brake hard with the rear. I seldom bike in
conditions where there is likely to be poor traction, though.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
- Mark Twain
  #7  
Old September 2nd 03, 08:09 PM
Mike S.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Miche Primato Pista bits


"Suzy Jackson" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I did a nice 70km ride on the weekend with a bunch of local troublemakers,
one of whom rode the whole time without once coasting. This strange
behaviour got me to thinking, I've got an old steel roadie in the garage
with those much sought after horizontal dropouts, and a rear triangle that
was brazed together when five speed freewheels were plentiful, that's been
quietly gathering dust since I built my go faster aluminium massively
overgeared clicky lever bike.

So I thought about it a bit, and figured it'd be lots of fun to put track
cranks and wheels on it, and throw away that nasty back brake for ever,

and
see if I can break myself of this terrible coasting habit. Further down

the
track (pun entirely intended) I could go and talk to a framebuilder and

get
a real track frame (or perhaps even a box of tubes and lugs), put my shiny
new cranks and wheels on it, and see how much I can scare myself going
around in circles (but always pedalling of course).

At least you're not jumping in with both feet, spending a lot of money, THEN
finding out that track racing is a very hard discipline. (unless you're
riding a 55cm track frame, then I lose) Hell, I was racing on an old track
frame that a redneck friend of mine unbent. I got if from a courier in DC
that had a discussion with a car. The bike cost me about $40 to put
together. Rode it till I got my first custom bike. On the track, it
usually ISN'T the bike doing the holding back.

In any case, I cast around on the net looking for suitable candidates, and
decided Record is ridiculously expensive, as is Dura-Ace. Next down the
list seems to be the Miche Primato bits, which seem at first glance to
strike a good compromise between shinyness and expense. Are they as nice

as
they look? I see they use cartridge bearings. What do I do when said
bearings disintegrate? I'm used to my nice Campy cup & cone hubs where

one
simply pulls everything apart and gives it all a scrub and some nice new
grease occasionally, and one can buy new balls and new cones should the

need
arise.

I'll second the motion further down of finding a FW hubset. I'll refine the
recommendation by saying that if you're running fixed, replace the axle with
a bolt-on and redish the wheel. My first track wheel was built out of a
MA40 rim and a Specialized FW hub. Worked great, even spinning VERY fast
going down some of the hills betweeen Alexandria and Fairfax, VA.

If you're set on riding a track hub, check out the Sugino Pro Max too.
There's always someone out there with a pair of used track hubs. I'm
running Superbe hubs on my track bike and love them.

The next issue is that the cranks are 135mm PCD, whereas most other track
cranks seem to be 144. Is this likely to cause grief?

For the first iteration of the bike, I'd recommend running whatcha got now.
Stick with the road pitch equipment till you decide that this track racing
thing's for you. I used to run a 42x17 setup most winters. Easy enough
that you can spin on the flats, but not so big you screw up your knees on
the hills. Colorado Cyclist sells road pitch track cogs in varying sizes.
Check out www.fixedgearfever.com for a gear inch chart and
www.businesscycles.com for all things track. Your LBS can also order things
from EuroAsia. They have some of the nicest track cogs these days

Finally, is it an issue squeezing the back end of a 126mm wide bike down

to
120mm? It's had 130mm wide wheels forced into it before without

significant
complaint.

Why squeeze when you can space out an axle easier? See above about the rear
wheel.

Anyways, I was hoping to con some advice out of others who use these bits.

Even though Sheldon doesn't use his rear brake, I'd still recommend keeping
it on till definitively proven that you don't need it.

I'd also recommend a single speed FW for larger group rides. Yes, this
means that you can coast. It also means that you can react to what the
idiot in front of you is doing in an emergency better. For a few friends
out for a little ride, fixed is fine.

If you can remember rule #1 of fixed gear riding: never, EVER, stop
pedaling, you'll do OK. If you do forget rule #1, relax your knees. Let
the crank turn them over for a bit. If you don't, you'll probably get
launched.

Regards,

Suzy

That help?

Mike


  #8  
Old September 2nd 03, 09:32 PM
Sheldon Brown
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Miche Primato Pista bits

Suzy Jackson wrote:

I did a nice 70km ride on the weekend with a bunch of local
troublemakers, one of whom rode the whole time without once coasting.
This strange behaviour got me to thinking, I've got an old steel
roadie in the garage with those much sought after horizontal dropouts,
and a rear triangle that was brazed together when five speed
freewheels were plentiful, that's been quietly gathering dust since I
built my go faster aluminium massively overgeared clicky lever bike.

So I thought about it a bit, and figured it'd be lots of fun to put
track cranks and wheels on it, and throw away that nasty back brake
for ever, and see if I can break myself of this terrible coasting
habit. Further down the track (pun entirely intended) I could go and
talk to a framebuilder and get a real track frame (or perhaps even a
box of tubes and lugs), put my shiny new cranks and wheels on it, and
see how much I can scare myself going around in circles (but always
pedalling of course).

In any case, I cast around on the net looking for suitable candidates,
and decided Record is ridiculously expensive, as is Dura-Ace. Next
down the list seems to be the Miche Primato bits, which seem at first
glance to strike a good compromise between shinyness and expense. Are
they as nice as they look? I see they use cartridge bearings. What
do I do when said bearings disintegrate? I'm used to my nice Campy
cup & cone hubs where one simply pulls everything apart and gives it
all a scrub and some nice new grease occasionally, and one can buy new
balls and new cones should the need arise.

The next issue is that the cranks are 135mm PCD, whereas most other
track cranks seem to be 144. Is this likely to cause grief?


Yes. Miche is the only source for track rings in this BCD. Other
manufacturers make shifty type rings, which will work, but generally the
selection in this oddball BCD is sparse.

My advice is to use a typical "road" crankset, such as you may already
own, and remove the outer ring. A cheap set of BMX chainring bolts will
be needed.

Finally, is it an issue squeezing the back end of a 126mm wide bike
down to 120mm? It's had 130mm wide wheels forced into it before
without significant complaint.


It would make more sense to build up the axle by adding a pair of 3 mm
spacers beneath the locknuts.

The Miche hubs are OK, but nothing special. I'd recommend Surly or
Suzue...actually, for you, definitely SUZue!

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/fixed.html#hubs

My Website has a great deal of material on fixed-gears for road use,
see: http://sheldonbrown.com/fixed.

Sheldon "Coasting Is Bad For You" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| I still feel that variable gears are only for people over |
| forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength |
| of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailleur? |
| We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear! |
| --Henri Desgrange, _L'Equipe_ article of 1902 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

  #9  
Old September 2nd 03, 11:10 PM
David L. Johnson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Miche Primato Pista bits

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 12:09:21 +0000, Mike S. wrote:

I'll second the motion further down of finding a FW hubset.


This is an old discussion, but I disagree. At least make sure to
lock-tite the sprocket on if you do this.

If you're set on riding a track hub, check out the Sugino Pro Max too.
There's always someone out there with a pair of used track hubs. I'm
running Superbe hubs on my track bike and love them.


I have a Dura-Ace double-sided rear which is the best-designed hub I've
seen. It is also nice to be able to turn it around for a second gear in
case you need it. IMO double-sided fixed is better than fixed/free.

For the first iteration of the bike, I'd recommend running whatcha got
now.


Agreed.

racing thing's for you. I used to run a 42x17 setup most winters.


That is kinda low. You will find yourself spinning at 110 or more just to
keep up with a slow group. I*use that for my hilly commute, but a 42/16
gives a better all-around gear.

Even though Sheldon doesn't use his rear brake, I'd still recommend
keeping it on till definitively proven that you don't need it.


I concur. The biggest advantage is that you have a second brake hood to
hang on to. Most of us spend much of our time on the hoods when using a
road bike; it makes sense to have the same for the fixed gear. If you do
race, a second set of bars/stem makes switching for the track pretty easy.


I'd also recommend a single speed FW for larger group rides.


Nah.

means that you can coast. It also means that you can react to what the
idiot in front of you is doing in an emergency better.


No, no no. The beauty of a fixed gear, and why it survives on the track,
is that you can react more quickly than with brakes. You can't come to a
full stop quickly, but you can get out of someone's way much faster. You
just think about slowing down, and it happens because you naturally slow
your cadence.

If you can remember rule #1 of fixed gear riding: never, EVER, stop
pedaling, you'll do OK.


The bike will remind you about that quite forcefully.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front
_`\(,_ | of enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of
(_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The
internet has proven this not to be the case.

  #10  
Old September 3rd 03, 02:04 AM
A Muzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Miche Primato Pista bits

"Suzy Jackson" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I did a nice 70km ride on the weekend with a bunch of local troublemakers,
one of whom rode the whole time without once coasting. This strange
behaviour got me to thinking, I've got an old steel roadie in the garage
with those much sought after horizontal dropouts, and a rear triangle that
was brazed together when five speed freewheels were plentiful, that's been
quietly gathering dust since I built my go faster aluminium massively
overgeared clicky lever bike.

So I thought about it a bit, and figured it'd be lots of fun to put track
cranks and wheels on it, and throw away that nasty back brake for ever,

and
see if I can break myself of this terrible coasting habit. Further down

the
track (pun entirely intended) I could go and talk to a framebuilder and

get
a real track frame (or perhaps even a box of tubes and lugs), put my shiny
new cranks and wheels on it, and see how much I can scare myself going
around in circles (but always pedalling of course).

In any case, I cast around on the net looking for suitable candidates, and
decided Record is ridiculously expensive, as is Dura-Ace. Next down the
list seems to be the Miche Primato bits, which seem at first glance to
strike a good compromise between shinyness and expense. Are they as nice

as
they look? I see they use cartridge bearings. What do I do when said
bearings disintegrate? I'm used to my nice Campy cup & cone hubs where

one
simply pulls everything apart and gives it all a scrub and some nice new
grease occasionally, and one can buy new balls and new cones should the

need
arise.

The next issue is that the cranks are 135mm PCD, whereas most other track
cranks seem to be 144. Is this likely to cause grief?

Finally, is it an issue squeezing the back end of a 126mm wide bike down

to
120mm? It's had 130mm wide wheels forced into it before without

significant
complaint.

Anyways, I was hoping to con some advice out of others who use these bits.



The Miche equipment is OK and I stock it but you needn't be restricted to
"pista" gear.
Here's our opinion about cheap urban fixed parts:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/sensible.html

The only thing you absolutley need IMHO is a fixed hub with reverse threaded
lockring and a track cog. There are others who feel even that can be kludged
by screwing a single cog on a freewheel hub. I don't/won't do that but
there was a heated discussion on the topic here a year ago if you want to
peruse the arguments. A Suzue fixed hub is dirt cheap BTW.

And 135mm is the same as your Chorus crank. 39, 40, 42, 50, 52, 53 from
Campagnolo and those plus 44, 45, 46 from Stronglight, inter alia.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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