Bike shop owners, wheel gurus: truing questions

John Schubert defended a previously reviewed bike in last month's
"Adventure Cycling" against accusations it had poor wheels, and his
defense raised some questions in my mind.

He wrote, "It's customary for spoked wheels to go slightly out of true
in the first days of riding, as the spokes stretch and bed into their
seats in the hub. ... The biggest single reason that bike shops call for
a thirty-day check is to true the wheels after this period of initial use."

Now in my very limited experience, after I've built wheels I'll check
them after a few days to see if a spoke has loosened, and if so, the
cause is usually obvious: a nipple unscrewed. Have I missed something?
Have the spokes really stretched and bedded in?

Next, again in my limited experience, the thirty day or 100 mile checks
I've seen have concentrated on adjusting the derailleurs and brakes.
How many shops check the trueness (and tension, as he goes on to
describe) of the wheels during these checks?

Finally, he wrote, "A high-mileage rider [2200 miles per year] ... can
expect to need her wheels trued once or twice a year. ... I ride mostly
on machine-built wheels ... and touch them up with a spoke wrench from
time to time."

I've seen a few posts here from people saying they never touch their
well-built, hand-trued, wheels. Is this a reasonable expectation? Or
do all wheels need to be touched up periodically? (Assuming the wheels
aren't wrecked or violently twisted in wheel-eating ruts.) Are
machine-built wheels so different from hand-built wheels that one
requires constant maintenance while the other is trouble-free?

Pat

Pat Lamb wrote:
John Schubert defended a previously reviewed bike in last month's
"Adventure Cycling" against accusations it had poor wheels, and his
defense raised some questions in my mind.

He wrote, "It's customary for spoked wheels to go slightly out of true
in the first days of riding, as the spokes stretch and bed into their
seats in the hub. ... The biggest single reason that bike shops call for
a thirty-day check is to true the wheels after this period of initial use."


This is only true for poorly built wheels. Steel spokes don't stretch
or bed into any seats. A good wheelbuilder will stress relieve and
otherwise stress the wheel, take out any spoke windup, before it goes
onto a bicycle.

Now in my very limited experience, after I've built wheels I'll check
them after a few days to see if a spoke has loosened, and if so, the
cause is usually obvious: a nipple unscrewed. Have I missed something?
Have the spokes really stretched and bedded in?

No, the tension keeps all tight. If you have a spoke loosen w/o any
obvious smack to the rim which causes it to be pushed in or 'dented' or
otherwise deformed. The tension and the windup and stress relieving
hasn't been accomplished.If the tension of the right on the rear isn'ty
proper, the left side will slacken to the point of unscrewing the nipp.

Next, again in my limited experience, the thirty day or 100 mile checks
I've seen have concentrated on adjusting the derailleurs and brakes.
How many shops check the trueness (and tension, as he goes on to
describe) of the wheels during these checks?

We check the wheels we build but seldom have to do anything unless the
guy has pilled thru a pothole or something. Remember most bicycles
outta a box have been buult by somebody that has no clue when it comes
to wheels, wheelbuilding, etc.


Finally, he wrote, "A high-mileage rider [2200 miles per year] ... can
expect to need her wheels trued once or twice a year. ... I ride mostly
on machine-built wheels ... and touch them up with a spoke wrench from
time to time."

2200 mikes isn't particularly high milage..less than 100 miles per
month, less than 25 miles per week. Not trying to blow me horn, but I
ride more than that per day, 12 months of the year(5 days per week),
BUT well built wheels need very little attention. Even 'machine built'
wheels, if trued, rounded, dished, tensioned and stress relieved when
new will work just fine. It is most often the build that makes for
lousey wheels, not the components.


I've seen a few posts here from people saying they never touch their
well-built, hand-trued, wheels. Is this a reasonable expectation? Or
do all wheels need to be touched up periodically? (Assuming the wheels
aren't wrecked or violently twisted in wheel-eating ruts.) Are
machine-built wheels so different from hand-built wheels that one
requires constant maintenance while the other is trouble-free?


See above. If well designed for the rider, made well, perhaps a 1/2
turn of a couple of nipps every once and a while. But when I glue on a
new tire, on the truing stand, i look at them, but seldom do anything.

Pat

Strictly anecdotal - take it for what it's worth.

My last bike: a CrMo touring frame with hand-built wheels (Araya alloy rims,
Ultegra hubs)
14 years,10,000+miles, NEVER had the wheels go out of true, never a loose
spoke, never needed to touch them.

*** *** ***

My dad had a rear wheel rebuilt at a *highly suspect* LBS. They have a
horrible reputation locally but they're the closest LBS to my parents and I
can't convince them to go elsewhere.

His wheel is out of true and popping spokes in the first year of use.
Similar componentry to my bike so I gotta believe it isn't the componentry,
it's who was swinging the tools. He rides gently on well-surfaced roads,
never crashes or otherwise abuses his bike.

Chris





"Pat Lamb" wrote in message
...
John Schubert defended a previously reviewed bike in last month's
"Adventure Cycling" against accusations it had poor wheels, and his
defense raised some questions in my mind.

He wrote, "It's customary for spoked wheels to go slightly out of true in
the first days of riding, as the spokes stretch and bed into their seats
in the hub. ... The biggest single reason that bike shops call for a
thirty-day check is to true the wheels after this period of initial use."

Now in my very limited experience, after I've built wheels I'll check them
after a few days to see if a spoke has loosened, and if so, the cause is
usually obvious: a nipple unscrewed. Have I missed something? Have the
spokes really stretched and bedded in?

Next, again in my limited experience, the thirty day or 100 mile checks
I've seen have concentrated on adjusting the derailleurs and brakes. How
many shops check the trueness (and tension, as he goes on to describe) of
the wheels during these checks?

Finally, he wrote, "A high-mileage rider [2200 miles per year] ... can
expect to need her wheels trued once or twice a year. ... I ride mostly on
machine-built wheels ... and touch them up with a spoke wrench from time
to time."

I've seen a few posts here from people saying they never touch their
well-built, hand-trued, wheels. Is this a reasonable expectation? Or do
all wheels need to be touched up periodically? (Assuming the wheels
aren't wrecked or violently twisted in wheel-eating ruts.) Are
machine-built wheels so different from hand-built wheels that one requires
constant maintenance while the other is trouble-free?

Pat

Pat Lamb wrote:

I've seen a few posts here from people saying they never touch their
well-built, hand-trued, wheels. Is this a reasonable expectation? Or
do all wheels need to be touched up periodically?

No, good hand built wheels do not need any attention until the rims wear
out or you twist them in a storm drain. The key is to have high spoke
tension and to get all the stretching and bending done during the
wheelbuild, not on the road.

Pat Lamb writes:

John Schubert defended a previously reviewed bike in last month's
"Adventure Cycling" against accusations it had poor wheels, and his
defense raised some questions in my mind.

He wrote, "It's customary for spoked wheels to go slightly out of
true in the first days of riding, as the spokes stretch and bed into
their seats in the hub. ... The biggest single reason that bike
shops call for a thirty-day check is to true the wheels after this
period of initial use."

I guess Schubert is still covering for poorly built wheels, probably
machine built ones that had no manual follow-up. As has been
discussed here at length, the effects to which he attributes loss of
wheel alignment are non existent with a properly tensioned and stress
relieved wheel.

Finally, he wrote, "A high-mileage rider [2200 miles per year] ... can
expect to need her wheels trued once or twice a year. ... I ride mostly
on machine-built wheels ... and touch them up with a spoke wrench from
time to time."

The hidden truth behind this is that an active rider puts on about
10,000 miles per year and in that time probably encounters a couple of
close calls in which the bicycle slides sideways a bit. Such events
typically cause a wow in a wheel that is obvious and is usually
straightened at that time. Other than that there is no reason for the
wheel to become untrue, all of it operating in the elastic stress
region of the materials (rim, hub, and spokes).

I've seen a few posts here from people saying they never touch their
well-built, hand-trued, wheels. Is this a reasonable expectation?

This is a reasonable expectation.

Or do all wheels need to be touched up periodically? (Assuming the
wheels aren't wrecked or violently twisted in wheel-eating ruts.)
Are machine-built wheels so different from hand-built wheels that
one requires constant maintenance while the other is trouble-free?

Machine built wheels, until now, have had a tension problem in that
tight spokes adjusted with the typical 1/4 turn of the nipple no
longer move in the threads but only only twist. Therefore final
truing is stopped before that (proper tension) is reached. I am
curious to see at InterBike if the wheel building manufacturers have
instituted the simple design change I have badgered them about these
past years to fix that.



Jobst Brandt

On 4 Aug 2005 08:53:15 -0700, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:



Finally, he wrote, "A high-mileage rider [2200 miles per year] ... can
expect to need her wheels trued once or twice a year. ... I ride mostly
on machine-built wheels ... and touch them up with a spoke wrench from
time to time."

2200 mikes isn't particularly high milage..less than 100 miles per
month, less than 25 miles per week. Not trying to blow me horn, but I
ride more than that per day, 12 months of the year(5 days per week),
BUT well built wheels need very little attention. Even 'machine built'
wheels, if trued, rounded, dished, tensioned and stress relieved when
new will work just fine. It is most often the build that makes for
lousey wheels, not the components.



I may not know much about spokes but I know about math. 2200/12 is 183
miles per month. Still not that much. I average around 300 per month.

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Pat Lamb wrote:
Next, again in my limited experience, the thirty day or 100 mile checks
I've seen have concentrated on adjusting the derailleurs and brakes.
How many shops check the trueness (and tension, as he goes on to
describe) of the wheels during these checks?


We check the wheels we build but seldom have to do anything unless the
guy has pilled thru a pothole or something. Remember most bicycles
outta a box have been buult by somebody that has no clue when it comes
to wheels, wheelbuilding, etc.

Yeah, I'm coming around to that viewpoint.

So you do check the wheels? Confirms what I thought -- your shop has to
be 3 (or more) sigmas above the mean.

Finally, he wrote, "A high-mileage rider [2200 miles per year] ... can
expect to need her wheels trued once or twice a year. ... I ride mostly
on machine-built wheels ... and touch them up with a spoke wrench from
time to time."


2200 mikes isn't particularly high milage..less than 100 miles per
month, less than 25 miles per week. Not trying to blow me horn, but I
ride more than that per day, 12 months of the year(5 days per week),
BUT well built wheels need very little attention. Even 'machine built'
wheels, if trued, rounded, dished, tensioned and stress relieved when
new will work just fine. It is most often the build that makes for
lousey wheels, not the components.

What's a factor of two among friends? Still, for an organization that
promotes long rides, like their flagship 4,247.5 mile transamerica ride,
calling 2200 annual miles "high-mileage" seems a bit, err, off.

Just so I'm clear on things, though, are wheels straight out of the
machine typically trued, rounded, dished, tensioned, and stress relieved
properly, or does the LBS or new owner need to double-check?

Pat

wrote:
Pat Lamb writes:

Or do all wheels need to be touched up periodically? (Assuming the
wheels aren't wrecked or violently twisted in wheel-eating ruts.)
Are machine-built wheels so different from hand-built wheels that
one requires constant maintenance while the other is trouble-free?


Machine built wheels, until now, have had a tension problem in that
tight spokes adjusted with the typical 1/4 turn of the nipple no
longer move in the threads but only only twist. Therefore final
truing is stopped before that (proper tension) is reached. I am
curious to see at InterBike if the wheel building manufacturers have
instituted the simple design change I have badgered them about these
past years to fix that.

Reading between the lines, can I infer machine built wheels need to be
touched up before riding?

Pat

It couldn't hurt to check right?

I have to true a number of new wheels on (low-end) bikes during assembly.
Some are truer than others. Some of this probably comes down to boxes being
handled roughly during transit.

My latest interesting find is that one manufacturer seems to be having a
problem installing the crank-arms at the correct tension, sigh.

Paul

"Pat Lamb" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Pat Lamb writes:

Or do all wheels need to be touched up periodically? (Assuming the
wheels aren't wrecked or violently twisted in wheel-eating ruts.)
Are machine-built wheels so different from hand-built wheels that
one requires constant maintenance while the other is trouble-free?


Machine built wheels, until now, have had a tension problem in that
tight spokes adjusted with the typical 1/4 turn of the nipple no
longer move in the threads but only only twist. Therefore final
truing is stopped before that (proper tension) is reached. I am
curious to see at InterBike if the wheel building manufacturers have
instituted the simple design change I have badgered them about these
past years to fix that.

Reading between the lines, can I infer machine built wheels need to be
touched up before riding?

Pat

Pat Lamb wrote:
Reading between the lines, can I infer machine built wheels need to be
touched up before riding?

As a minimum, they need to be brought up to proper tension, and stress
relieved.

Art Harris