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drill/tap in frames



 
 
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  #31  
Old July 11th 18, 02:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,833
Default drill/tap in frames

On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:58:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Actually, I mentioned Rivnuts when I posted the very first reply to
Emanuel's original post. That was about eight hours before the post you
quoted.


Sorry, I missed that.

Also note that he indicates that "the chainguard is mounted on the
stays...". Which of the stays, he doesn't mention, but it doesn't
matter. Chain stays and seat stays are both rather small diameter.


The reason I'd like photos is that Emanuel seems to imply that a hole in
the stays is the original method of mounting the chainguard. I think
that's unlikely. I wondered if there are brazed-on tabs or some other
feature that we don't know about.


Photos, from his web site:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/work-photos/

This might be the bicycle. Notice the chain guard and welded mounting
bracket in the middle of the right chain stay:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/work-photos/hermes.jpg

Mo
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/work-photos/stand.jpg

ISTM that Emanuel isn't very clear on many bike-related terms in
English, and he seems to be a novice mechanic in general. Some of his
descriptions may be unintentionally misleading.


Yep, probably because he thinks and writes like a programmer. In the
middle of the main program, he services an interrupt and jumps to
different topic. Since the there's no return pointer, he doesn't go
back to the main program. He also tries to service all the interrupts
and topic changes in parallel, when it would be better if they were
handled serially. A general failure to define the parameters and
variables used leave the user wondering what equipment he's working
with. Without initial comments, it's also difficult to know what he's
trying to accomplish. I think his postings would be less buggy if he
masked all interrupts, executed only the main program, added enough
comments to help debug the problem, and only then branch off into
subroutines, which hopefully will eventually return control to the
main program.

Programming Review (poetry)
http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/poetry/code.htm


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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  #32  
Old July 11th 18, 03:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,053
Default drill/tap in frames

On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 9:33:34 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:58:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

The reason I'd like photos is that Emanuel seems to imply that a hole in
the stays is the original method of mounting the chainguard. I think
that's unlikely. I wondered if there are brazed-on tabs or some other
feature that we don't know about.


Photos, from his web site:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/work-photos/

This might be the bicycle. Notice the chain guard and welded mounting
bracket in the middle of the right chain stay:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/work-photos/hermes.jpg


There also seems to be a horizontal welded tab protruding from the seat tube
above the chainring. (Or underneath the chainring in the photo of the inverted
bike.) That may be a mounting point for the top surface of the chainguard.

The chainguard also seems to have a bracket that would connect the
chainguard's bottom to the underside of the bottom bracket area of the frame.
Perhaps that's the spot he wants to drill and tap?

- Frank Krygowski
  #33  
Old July 11th 18, 03:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,305
Default drill/tap in frames

On 7/10/2018 5:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I have one of the egg cube makers shown:
https://www.thegreenhead.com/2006/10/egg-cuber-makes-square-eggs.php


Who doesn't? No more eggs rolling off the plate.
  #34  
Old July 11th 18, 04:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default drill/tap in frames

On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 16:27:01 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Are there any secrets to drilling holes in
steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded
ones I can test on but I thought I'd
ask anyway.

Do you use normal power hand tools like
a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if
possible with the desired bolt position)?

Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get
a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with
a 5.0mm drill?

And you can use chainsaw oil, right?


The greatest problem that I've encountered is that the two bottle
cages are usually too close together at the junction of the seat -
down tube to fit the drill motor :-)

Re tap drill size look it up in any thread manual. The remarkable
stand buy you mention isn't accurate at all. A 5x .8 requires a 4.2mm
hole. A 10x1.5 a 8.5mm hole. The "1 mm smaller" is accurate twice over
the 1mm - 10 mm bolt size ranges :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #35  
Old July 11th 18, 04:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default drill/tap in frames

On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:33:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody
should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop.
Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for
anyone with normal mechanical skills.


That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages:
http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/

Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts
(steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue
(plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter.

Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum
frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber).


One can only suppose that those "dumb asses: that manufacture rivnuts
deliberately make their product in a number of materials :-)

And, it might be added that not knowing what you are doing is not
limited to bicycle maintenence :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #36  
Old July 11th 18, 04:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default drill/tap in frames

On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 13:35:35 -0500, Doug Cimperman
wrote:

On 7/7/2018 9:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Are there any secrets to drilling holes in
steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded
ones I can test on but I thought I'd
ask anyway.

Do you use normal power hand tools like
a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if
possible with the desired bolt position)?

Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get
a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with
a 5.0mm drill?

And you can use chainsaw oil, right?


From playing with the metalworking machines I have...

1) A drill press w/vise will work far better than a hand drill. If you
use a hand drill in thicker (1mm) metal, the bits will go dull really
fast and tend to break as they come out the back side of the hole.

2) there are tap/drill charts online that tell you what hole size is
needed for which tap size.

3) for cutting fluid--real fluid is best but any lubricating oil you
have is way better than nothing.

4) cheap taps tend to be really ****ty--there's no other word for it.
The metal is weak, the thread fit is loose and even with lube they are
hard to turn in (being ground poorly),,, which makes breaking them even
more likely. They aren't worth stealing.

But good taps,,, cost money (just like drill bits). The $50 set at Sears
would cost you $400+ from a real machinist supply place. I would suggest
you buy a single spiral-point tap online, as you need them.

For am M6x1mm, this is what I'd get at McMaster: part # 2703A74, $10.72
https://www.mcmaster.com/#2703a74/=1dm1s97

5) and you didn't ask, but just FYI: stainless steel is a royal bitch.
It is way, way, way tougher than carbon steel. Other than an angle
grinder, cheap tools simply won't cut it. You pretty much need a BIG
drill press or mill and good cobalt/carbide drill bits w/real cutting
fluid.

I have seen posts online where people wanted to drill a hole in a cheap
stainless-steel mixing bowl, and they couldn't figure out why the drill
bit would just spin around and not go through.


Stainless is a far more complex subject. For example, we used to drill
holes in the SR-71 fuselage by hand using a simple air drill and high
speed drill bit. I've also seen (as you say) people that couldn't
drill a hole in a cooking bowl :-) The basic problem is usually that
"stainless" frequently "work hardens" very rapidly, sometimes in one
drill rotation and changes from a rather benine material to something
nearly as hard as glass.
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #37  
Old July 11th 18, 04:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default drill/tap in frames

On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 01:00:09 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Doug Cimperman wrote:

1) A drill press w/vise will work far better
than a hand drill. If you use a hand drill
in thicker (1mm) metal, the bits will go
dull really fast and tend to break as they
come out the back side of the hole.


Drill bits, is there a reason to use those
instead of just drills (round)?

2) there are tap/drill charts online that
tell you what hole size is needed for
which tap size.


Yes, I have the table on virtually every
calipers and ruler I have...


If you are working in the trade, a "drill is generally the machine
used to make the hole while the drill BIT is what does the cutting.
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #38  
Old July 11th 18, 05:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default drill/tap in frames

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 19:31:00 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Are there any secrets to drilling holes in
steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded
ones I can test on but I thought I'd
ask anyway.

Do you use normal power hand tools like
a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if
possible with the desired bolt position)?

Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get
a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with
a 5.0mm drill?

And you can use chainsaw oil, right?


As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that
drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept."


Yes, I used to read Brandt's posts and I found him to argue false
facts just about as frequently as he did true ones.

--

Cheers,

John B.
  #39  
Old July 11th 18, 05:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default drill/tap in frames

On Mon, 09 Jul 2018 10:55:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:21:43 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

sms wrote:
:On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
: Are there any secrets to drilling holes in
: steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded
: ones I can test on but I thought I'd
: ask anyway.
:
: Do you use normal power hand tools like
: a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if
: possible with the desired bolt position)?
:
: Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get
: a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with
: a 5.0mm drill?
:
: And you can use chainsaw oil, right?

:As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that
:drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept."


Who cares what riders think, what do the egineers do?


Jobst Brandt was a mechanical engineer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobst_Brandt

What's an egineer?


One might comment that a fairly large number of bridges, that
subsequently fell down, were designed by the engineers of the times
:-)
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #40  
Old July 11th 18, 07:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 933
Default drill/tap in frames

Frank Krygowski wrote:

There also seems to be a horizontal welded
tab protruding from the seat tube above the
chainring. (Or underneath the chainring in
the photo of the inverted bike.) That may be
a mounting point for the top surface of
the chainguard.

The chainguard also seems to have a bracket
that would connect the chainguard's bottom to
the underside of the bottom bracket area of
the frame. Perhaps that's the spot he wants
to drill and tap?


The chainguard typically has a three stays.

One down below, to the bottom bracket. There is
a threaded hole both ways, i.e.
two such occurrences.

One stay front. There is usually two threaded
holes on the stay/chainguard interface.
But here there is more variation as sometimes
it is a bent bracket screwed into the frame,
also threaded with no nut. But sometimes the
bracket appears to be an extention of the
frame, I suppose it is welded as it is
a steel frame.

Then there is a stay at the back. This is
sometimes a likewise extention of the frame as
above (with a single threaded hole) but
sometimes it is a loose part, a bracket bent
around the seat stay tube, much like the
component that connects the rear hub brake arm
to the chain stay. If this is the case, there
is no threading to it, save for the bolt that
has a nut on the other side.

Actually this is not what I had in mind for
drilling and tapping, that was a bottle cage on
the down/diagonal tube. I put it there with
cable ties ("wires") but there was an annoying
sound while riding the bike. The chainguard
stay example I brought up to contradict the
claim that it cannot be done because of too
thin tube walls. The stays are not very thin,
and besides they are screwed into the frame, so
there are possibly two, at least one example
how a small width would suffice. I write
"possibly" because it was brought up possibly
the tubes are butted. I doubt that because
these bikes are commuter bikes, solid, but not
optimized. But I suppose anything is possible.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
 




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