too-long spokes

wrote:
:On Monday, November 5, 2012 9:50:24 AM UTC-5, David Scheidt wrote:
:
:
: Perfect in this case meaning round and true within a thou, which is
:
: the limit of my dial indicator, and below my ability to see the
:
: difference; and tension that's uniform, within 5%.

:Wow. Well, I'm sure I've never achieved trueness within 0.001". I don't use my machinist dial indicators when wheel building; instead, I just use the metal guides on my inexpensive truing stand. But I think I probably stop work when I get within about 0.020" or half a millimeter. I do try to balance spoke tension, but I do that only by ear, plucking the spokes.

:I re-true only when I can detect a problem. Unless I've hit a big pothole, that generally means a scraping brake shoe. Being a non-connoisseur has some advantages.

I hit a trench the gas company left in the road on my beater bike last
fall, about a 5 or 6" ledge. It was dark, didn't realize it was that
big, and hit it about 20 mph I did an impressive over the bars (I hit a
parked car with my head, on the other side of the street). Bent the fork.
Wheel is still true. I'm sure it's not as good as it was when I built
it, but it's certainly not rubbing the brakes, or anywhere close.

If I fix an existing wheel for some reason, I don't even try to get
much better than even tension and not rubbing the brakes. Starting
with good new parts is a lot easier than starting with used, bent
ones.

--
sig 19

36..... They should also be inside the flange when

typically using interlaced spokes (you MUST).

what I find is a full thread leads to a tangle of problems at wheels end. Qith max mileage and replacement on the horizon, 36's points then bring total length over the nipple head into the tube area velox or no velox...not even $14 Duck tape...by time you deal with spoke length broken head warped rim dings bump hollows and noreasters....**** yawl do weel throw ing wheel away with 20% of its running time.

On 11/3/2012 4:54 PM, Dan O wrote:
On Nov 3, 2:30 pm, wrote:
On Saturday, November 3, 2012 3:21:23 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:11 am, Lou Holtman wrote:

Op 3-11-2012 0:07, schreef:

That makes sense to me. I enjoy taking on lots of widely varying projects - from welding to home remodeling to writing music harmonies to mechanism design to machining, etc. etc. But I'm aware that a pro can do most of them far faster than I can. One of the reasons is, pros develop good judgment for the necessary tolerance.

The reason pro's can do it faster is: they have more experience,

better/suitable tools but the often cut corners at the expense of

quality. I'm not a 'good enough' person, I want the best result

possible. I'm quite handy and I can do most of the homework myself. The

only problem is time. I have not the time to do it all myself and not

all the tools. The results of the projects I did myself will be at least

as good as a pro, most of the times better. Why? Because I have the

motivation to spend the time to make the result perfect. If a pro can do

the job better I don't do it myself.

It's true that pros generally have to be productive, and this leads to

"good enough"; but some do really care to do always (truly) excellent

work. It's a too rare and wonderful combination when skill and

quality combine that way.

The point about the phrase "Good enough is perfect" is that tolerances exist for a reason. One of the things that freshman engineering students have to learn is that when dimensioning a part, one doesn't put tolerances of "plus or minus 0.001" on everything. Instead, one analyzes how large the tolerances can be while still providing the desired functionality. If plus or minus 0.050" functions just as well, there's real detriment in shooting for anything tighter.


... in cost competitive production of quantities.

I suppose in some cases, it's appearance that's at stake, not function. But IME, even then a really competent pro knows what will show and what won't.


I just meant there's a more rare wonderful synergy where a pro who
cares about excellence such that he has developed competency to the
point of "churning out" excellent work without even trying.

BTW, I had a long conversation this morning with the guy I mentioned earlier, the one who helped me on my basement room. He now lives about 900 miles away, so I haven't seen him for a while. But he talked about two recent jobs, doing interior work on the mansions of millionaires. His reputation is good enough for him to land work with very exacting clients.


And good enough is certainly good enough.

Exactly. A Taiwanese robot TIG welded frame can perform just as well as
a hand brazed frame from say Richard Sachs.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!

perfect is he cannot see the error...that's goog enough or better for sport riding.

or we have no more time for this task ect.....good enough


or commuting in and out of Portland in winter good enough....

the rim is bent good enough

lotta ways for not 'seeing' the error

situational wheel truing

On Monday, November 5, 2012 7:50:15 AM UTC-5, datakoll wrote:

if clac worked there would be no Cooper.

Update, as promised:

I ordered new spokes, 2 mm shorter on the non-drive side and 4 mm shorter on the drive side, unlaced the wheel and stated from scratch.

All is well; and to all of you, thank you for your help,

Bob Cooper

On 10/11/12 13:09, Robert Cooper wrote:
On Monday, November 5, 2012 7:50:15 AM UTC-5, datakoll wrote:

if clac worked there would be no Cooper.

Update, as promised:

I ordered new spokes, 2 mm shorter on the non-drive side and 4 mm shorter on the drive side, unlaced the wheel and stated from scratch.

All is well; and to all of you, thank you for your help,

Glad you got it sorted. 2mm and 4mm too long are pretty huge errors. I
didn't realise the problem was so big in the first place.

I've been looking for an economical source of spokes. There's nothing
I've found locally. Seems Chain Reaction Cycles has a fair selection at
reasonable price - just in case you feel like building more. I've
recently built a wheel reusing a rim from another wheel, and intend to
lace up another this weekend so I'll have spare wheels for my road bike
at long last.

--
JS.

On 11/9/2012 8:09 PM, Robert Cooper wrote:
On Monday, November 5, 2012 7:50:15 AM UTC-5, datakoll wrote:

if clac worked there would be no Cooper.

Update, as promised:

I ordered new spokes, 2 mm shorter on the non-drive side and 4 mm shorter on the drive side, unlaced the wheel and stated from scratch.

All is well; and to all of you, thank you for your help,

Bob Cooper


Feels great to know it's right, right?
Enjoy the ride.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, November 9, 2012 9:35:41 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/9/2012 8:09 PM, Robert Cooper wrote:

On Monday, November 5, 2012 7:50:15 AM UTC-5, datakoll wrote:



if clac worked there would be no Cooper.



Update, as promised:



I ordered new spokes, 2 mm shorter on the non-drive side and 4 mm shorter on the drive side, unlaced the wheel and stated from scratch.



All is well; and to all of you, thank you for your help,



Bob Cooper





Feels great to know it's right, right?

Enjoy the ride.



--

Andrew Muzi

www.yellowjersey.org/

Open every day since 1 April, 1971

ZZZZZZZZZZCCCCCCCKKKK

hey 2-3-4 mm why complain ?

WE MARCH ON THE CASTLE AT TWILIGHT EST

torches supplied