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Ride an SUB not an SUV



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 5th 07, 05:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
donquijote1954
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,851
Default fewer vehicles out there to feed traffic jams

The apple gives you a good picture of where we stand...

A brief history of consumption
http://www.ecotality.com/

And then I read about the ecobus (right here in the USof A)...

Arizona Showcases Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus

Arizona's first hydrogen powered bus is on the move in Arizona. The
ECObus is powered by a fuel cell that runs on pure hydrogen. ECOtality
has teamed up with Arizona Public Service (APS) company to bring the
ECObus to the state of Arizona with the objective of educating the
public on the use of renewable energies.

Beginning its excursion in Phoenix, Arizona, this zero-emissions bus
showcases the capabilities of hydrogen fuel cell technology.

Fuel Cell Technology is Good for the Environment

When hydrogen is used in a fuel cell, it produces electricity without
any harmful emissions. In fact, all that comes out of the tailpipe is
a small amount of water vapor. This is in sharp contrast to the
conventional vehicles we drive and ride-in today. Current conventional
vehicles are fueled by petroleum and powered by internal combustion
engines, contributing significantly to greenhouse gases and other
noxious substances that are emitted into our atmosphere daily.

As such, hydrogen is an ideal renewable energy source, answering
today's complex energy problems with its ability to power cars,
trucks, homes and businesses with no pollution or greenhouse gases.

Transportation of the Future

The bus uses three HyPM® 65 Fuel Cell Power Modules capable of
providing a total of 180 kilowatts (kW) of power. A 720-volt bank of
ultra-capacitors provides the remaining power needed to reach the peak
power requirements of 350 kW.

While the dominant power source comes from fuel cells, the bus'
efficient, hybrid-power construction represents an attractive solution
for future fuel cell powered buses. This is mainly because a hybrid
configuration enables the system to readily provide instantaneous full
power, with reduced capital cost and increased fuel efficiency. The
anticipated cost reduction is seen as a pathway that could speed up
the commercialization of fuel cell technology.

http://www.ecotality.com/ecobus/

Ads
  #22  
Old March 5th 07, 05:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
donquijote1954
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,851
Default go for a Tango!

On Mar 4, 10:57 pm, "nash" wrote:
"George Conklin" wrote in message

nk.net...







"Bill Baka" wrote in message
et...
donquijote1954 wrote:
On Mar 4, 9:49 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:
On Mar 3, 11:47 am, "donquijote1954"
wrote:


Hey, be smart. You are part of the solution, not part of the problem.
And you save the buck. Dinosaurs are a thing of the past and the
little furry animals are here to stay.
There are two versions of it...
bike:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235847689274986069
and bus:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235396990102826110
OK, how is the bus not polluting?


You don't see it everyday, but it's possible. Just some new
technologies and some political will to make it happen...


Heaven Help Bus
A visit to Iceland spurs dreams of a hydrogen future


The loneliness of the long-distance rider.I have seen the future, and
it works.


The 111 bus rolls quietly up to the Mjodd terminal in eastern
Reykjavik at 11:19 a.m., and I climb aboard. For 45 minutes, we cruise
through the suburbs and then to the central square downtown, picking
up and discharging eight passengers along the way. Fuel cells that
would have filled the space of several passenger seats five years ago
are now small enough to fit in the roof panels. And out the exhaust
pipe: a trickle of water.


http://www.grist.org/comments/soapbo...n-hydrogenbus/


I have a dream...that someday buses will not pollute. Actually we
could make it happen now much easier than having all the cars be
replaced with hybrid. Just change the fleet of buses to hydrogen or
some other technologies out there.


We can make it happen with THE REVOLUTION. Coming soon...


Too optimistic. Somebody, somewhere is probably burning coal or oil to
make the electricity to electrolyze the water to make the Hydrogen.
It only really works if the electricity comes from wind, solar, hydro,
or, dare I say it, NUculear (Bush pronunciation).
Bill Baka


Anything which makes a bus more efficient would make a car even more
efficient than the bus. Right now transit buses waste fuel big time.


"Who killed the electric car" would be a good movie for this thread.
I will never buy anything from GM. Wusses!- Hide quoted text -



The Tango is a fun option if you want to dance --or drive...

(I'd love one. Gotta ask Santa. Then buy life insurance, because I'd
be dead meat with it in the Darwinian roads where I live)

Tango

Doubling freeways. Quadrupling parking.
0-60 mph in 4 seconds.

The Tango--unique in many ways--has the solution for some of the major
problems we have with automobiles today. Traffic has overcome the
current freeway system. There are too many 4-passenger cars using an
entire lane to transport a single person. There is also too much
pollution from gasoline vehicles.

Solution: Reduce traffic and pollution with the Tango, a car that fits
its use! This tandem two-seater can get you safely and comfortably to
work and back without wasted space or fuel. The Tango--being 6"
narrower than many motorcycles--takes less than half the space of the
average car on the freeway, thereby doubling the capacity of existing
freeway lanes. The Tango can fit in a future 6 foot lane easier than a
truck fits in a standard 12 foot lane. To fight pollution it is
available as an electric zero-emission vehicle.

http://www.commutercars.com/http://p...prent/ford.htm

  #23  
Old March 5th 07, 06:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
donquijote1954
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,851
Default not for the average wannabe Napoleon

I'm warning you, the Tango is not for the average wannabe Napoleon
driving an SUV out there. This is for the sleek and elegant, for the
smart and classic, for the fun and passionate, for the caring and
unselfish. Status-seekers who want to stand out by driving a
polluting, dangerous oversized vehicle need not apply. Without further
ado...

http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/ClooneyTango.html

  #24  
Old March 5th 07, 07:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
Bill Baka
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,083
Default Ride an SUB not an SUV

George Conklin wrote:
"Bill Baka" wrote in message
...
Only if nobody rides them. When I was a kid in the Chicago area I could
go anywhere on a weekend with a travel buddy of mine. We took the train
into downtown, then the 'el' ( hard to explain), and over/underground
subway system. Then there were electric trolley buses, and finally
regular buses to get us within walking distance.
And, yes, any one of those modes of transportation sucks fuel big time
if nobody rides them. If they are full they are a good thing. SUV's and
single occupant soccer moms have messed up the equation.
Bill Baka


Actually a SUV would use about the same fuel as a current transit bus.


If it was electric the only defense I can make is that it had better
have some dame good regenerative braking. Then all that mass that had to
be accelerated could charge the batteries again during the stop.
Mass transit is the one place where actual full electrics do make sense.
Since they almost never make it over about 35 MPH in the city there
would be very little in the higher speed move the air and use power mode.
Getting this electricity from a central (clean) power plant would make a
lot more sense than the current non-regenerative and smoky diesels.
A multi million dollar power plant is going to make more power per ppm
of pollutant than ANY car ever will.
No jokes about Hydrogen power plants either.
Bill Baka
  #25  
Old March 5th 07, 07:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
Bill Baka
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,083
Default Ride an BUS not an SUV

Clark F Morris wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:29:39 GMT, "George Conklin"
wrote:

"Bill Baka" wrote in message
...
George Conklin wrote:
"Bill Baka" wrote in message
t...
donquijote1954 wrote:
On Mar 4, 9:49 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:
On Mar 3, 11:47 am, "donquijote1954"
wrote:

Hey, be smart. You are part of the solution, not part of the

problem.
And you save the buck. Dinosaurs are a thing of the past and the
little furry animals are here to stay.
There are two versions of it...
bike:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235847689274986069
and bus:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235396990102826110
OK, how is the bus not polluting?
You don't see it everyday, but it's possible. Just some new
technologies and some political will to make it happen...

Heaven Help Bus
A visit to Iceland spurs dreams of a hydrogen future

The loneliness of the long-distance rider.I have seen the future, and
it works.

The 111 bus rolls quietly up to the Mjodd terminal in eastern
Reykjavik at 11:19 a.m., and I climb aboard. For 45 minutes, we cruise
through the suburbs and then to the central square downtown, picking
up and discharging eight passengers along the way. Fuel cells that
would have filled the space of several passenger seats five years ago
are now small enough to fit in the roof panels. And out the exhaust
pipe: a trickle of water.

http://www.grist.org/comments/soapbo...n-hydrogenbus/

I have a dream...that someday buses will not pollute. Actually we
could make it happen now much easier than having all the cars be
replaced with hybrid. Just change the fleet of buses to hydrogen or
some other technologies out there.

We can make it happen with THE REVOLUTION. Coming soon...

Too optimistic. Somebody, somewhere is probably burning coal or oil to
make the electricity to electrolyze the water to make the Hydrogen.
It only really works if the electricity comes from wind, solar, hydro,
or, dare I say it, NUculear (Bush pronunciation).
Bill Baka
Anything which makes a bus more efficient would make a car even more
efficient than the bus. Right now transit buses waste fuel big time.


Only if nobody rides them. When I was a kid in the Chicago area I could
go anywhere on a weekend with a travel buddy of mine. We took the train
into downtown, then the 'el' ( hard to explain), and over/underground
subway system. Then there were electric trolley buses, and finally
regular buses to get us within walking distance.
And, yes, any one of those modes of transportation sucks fuel big time
if nobody rides them. If they are full they are a good thing. SUV's and
single occupant soccer moms have messed up the equation.
Bill Baka

Actually a SUV would use about the same fuel as a current transit bus.

George, while SUVs are fuel guzzlers, they still get 2 - 3 times the
miles per gallon as a transit bus. The question is whether the
transit bus average loading is 3 or more times greater than the
average loading of an SUV in similar circumstances (urban area driving
only and dead head trips included). Any time there is carpooling
there probably is either dead head mileage or circuity, sometimes
both.


Gas is going to have to hit $3 a gallon and stay there for the soccer
mom crowd to realize they need a little Geo-Metro 3 banger just to run
to the store for a pack of smokes, or some **** paper or other silly
little errand. People are slow learners.
Bill Baka
  #26  
Old March 5th 07, 07:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
Bill Baka
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,083
Default Ride an SUB not an SUV

Clark F Morris wrote:
On 5 Mar 2007 05:22:38 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:

On Mar 4, 2:55 pm, "donquijote1954"
wrote:
On Mar 4, 9:49 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:



On Mar 3, 11:47 am, "donquijote1954"
wrote:
Hey, be smart. You are part of the solution, not part of the problem.
And you save the buck. Dinosaurs are a thing of the past and the
little furry animals are here to stay.
There are two versions of it...
bike:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235847689274986069
and bus:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235396990102826110
OK, how is the bus not polluting?
You don't see it everyday, but it's possible. Just some new
technologies and some political will to make it happen...

Heaven Help Bus
A visit to Iceland spurs dreams of a hydrogen future

The loneliness of the long-distance rider.I have seen the future, and
it works.

The 111 bus rolls quietly up to the Mjodd terminal in eastern
Reykjavik at 11:19 a.m., and I climb aboard. For 45 minutes, we cruise
through the suburbs and then to the central square downtown, picking
up and discharging eight passengers along the way. Fuel cells that
would have filled the space of several passenger seats five years ago
are now small enough to fit in the roof panels. And out the exhaust
pipe: a trickle of water.

http://www.grist.org/comments/soapbo...n-hydrogenbus/

I have a dream...that someday buses will not pollute. Actually we
could make it happen now much easier than having all the cars be
replaced with hybrid. Just change the fleet of buses to hydrogen or
some other technologies out there.

We can make it happen with THE REVOLUTION. Coming soon...

How do they make the hydrogen? Do ya suppose their is some energy use
to make that happen? And is the energy gained higher or lower than the
energy expense to get the hydrogen?


In Iceland, I believe that they have geothermal power plants taking
advantage of hot lava areas underground.


The whole world is not Iceland!!!!!
Bill Baka
  #27  
Old March 5th 07, 07:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
Bill Baka
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,083
Default fewer vehicles out there to feed traffic jams

donquijote1954 wrote:
On Mar 4, 8:33 pm, "George Conklin"
wrote:
I have a dream...that someday buses will not pollute. Actually we
could make it happen now much easier than having all the cars be
replaced with hybrid. Just change the fleet of buses to hydrogen or
some other technologies out there.
We can make it happen with THE REVOLUTION. Coming soon...
Too optimistic. Somebody, somewhere is probably burning coal or oil to
make the electricity to electrolyze the water to make the Hydrogen.
It only really works if the electricity comes from wind, solar, hydro,
or, dare I say it, NUculear (Bush pronunciation).
Bill Baka

Anything which makes a bus more efficient would make a car even more
efficient than the bus. Right now transit buses waste fuel big time.- Hide quoted text -


Only true if less than 7 passengers ride it. And still it means fewer
vehicles out there to feed traffic jams...

Using Mass Transit
The key to mass transit is the word "mass". The more of us who use it,
the more global warming pollution it saves. That's because a bus or
train releases more CO2 into the air than a car, but a bus or train
holds many, many more people and thus keeps all those cars off the
road.

A bus with just 7 passengers is more fuel efficient than the average
car.


How many carpoolers do you see crammed with 7 people?
Reality check?
Bill Baka

A full bus? Six times more efficient. And a full train? A
whopping 15 times more efficient.

http://www.globalwarmingsolutions.or...sportation.php

  #28  
Old March 5th 07, 08:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
Daryl Hunt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 134
Default Ride an SUB not an SUV


"George Conklin" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Daryl Hunt" wrote in message
...

"George Conklin" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bill Baka" wrote in message
t...
donquijote1954 wrote:
On Mar 4, 9:49 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:
On Mar 3, 11:47 am, "donquijote1954"
wrote:

Hey, be smart. You are part of the solution, not part of the

problem.
And you save the buck. Dinosaurs are a thing of the past and the
little furry animals are here to stay.
There are two versions of it...
bike:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235847689274986069
and bus:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235396990102826110
OK, how is the bus not polluting?

You don't see it everyday, but it's possible. Just some new
technologies and some political will to make it happen...

Heaven Help Bus
A visit to Iceland spurs dreams of a hydrogen future

The loneliness of the long-distance rider.I have seen the future,
and
it works.

The 111 bus rolls quietly up to the Mjodd terminal in eastern
Reykjavik at 11:19 a.m., and I climb aboard. For 45 minutes, we

cruise
through the suburbs and then to the central square downtown, picking
up and discharging eight passengers along the way. Fuel cells that
would have filled the space of several passenger seats five years
ago
are now small enough to fit in the roof panels. And out the exhaust
pipe: a trickle of water.


http://www.grist.org/comments/soapbo...n-hydrogenbus/

I have a dream...that someday buses will not pollute. Actually we
could make it happen now much easier than having all the cars be
replaced with hybrid. Just change the fleet of buses to hydrogen or
some other technologies out there.

We can make it happen with THE REVOLUTION. Coming soon...

Too optimistic. Somebody, somewhere is probably burning coal or oil to
make the electricity to electrolyze the water to make the Hydrogen.
It only really works if the electricity comes from wind, solar, hydro,
or, dare I say it, NUculear (Bush pronunciation).
Bill Baka

Anything which makes a bus more efficient would make a car even more
efficient than the bus. Right now transit buses waste fuel big time.


Not all, I think I read somewhere where a city went to Electrics.


Ok, that exports pollution to rural areas.


Nope, we run out tricity from Hydroelectric around here and export it to
other regions. If you are in California you can almost bet that there are a
couple or three megawatts passing through.


And of course a plug-in hybrid
electric car would meet about 90% of the commuting needs of America.


And still pollute like any other gasoline powered car. Newsflash, the
electric power is made from Gasoline.



  #29  
Old March 5th 07, 08:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
Daryl Hunt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 134
Default Ride an SUB not an SUV


"nash" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"George Conklin" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bill Baka" wrote in message
t...
donquijote1954 wrote:
On Mar 4, 9:49 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:
On Mar 3, 11:47 am, "donquijote1954"
wrote:

Hey, be smart. You are part of the solution, not part of the
problem.
And you save the buck. Dinosaurs are a thing of the past and the
little furry animals are here to stay.
There are two versions of it...
bike:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235847689274986069
and bus:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235396990102826110
OK, how is the bus not polluting?

You don't see it everyday, but it's possible. Just some new
technologies and some political will to make it happen...

Heaven Help Bus
A visit to Iceland spurs dreams of a hydrogen future

The loneliness of the long-distance rider.I have seen the future, and
it works.

The 111 bus rolls quietly up to the Mjodd terminal in eastern
Reykjavik at 11:19 a.m., and I climb aboard. For 45 minutes, we cruise
through the suburbs and then to the central square downtown, picking
up and discharging eight passengers along the way. Fuel cells that
would have filled the space of several passenger seats five years ago
are now small enough to fit in the roof panels. And out the exhaust
pipe: a trickle of water.

http://www.grist.org/comments/soapbo...n-hydrogenbus/

I have a dream...that someday buses will not pollute. Actually we
could make it happen now much easier than having all the cars be
replaced with hybrid. Just change the fleet of buses to hydrogen or
some other technologies out there.

We can make it happen with THE REVOLUTION. Coming soon...

Too optimistic. Somebody, somewhere is probably burning coal or oil to
make the electricity to electrolyze the water to make the Hydrogen.
It only really works if the electricity comes from wind, solar, hydro,
or, dare I say it, NUculear (Bush pronunciation).
Bill Baka


Anything which makes a bus more efficient would make a car even more
efficient than the bus. Right now transit buses waste fuel big time.



"Who killed the electric car" would be a good movie for this thread.
I will never buy anything from GM. Wusses!


They didn't kill it but they did slow it down. You will notice that Carlin
is saying it's because of the Lead Acid Batteries. It's not. LiIon,
mercury ion and (soon to be) Sulfure Ion are extremely efficient and much
lighter than a SLA. Those are the batteries that should be used. But
Toyota still saddles their Hybrids with SLAs so there is no savings or smog
lessing. SLAs have about a 1000 hour service life but reduce when they hit
about 500 hours or more. That means you have to replace them and that is
danged expensive when you are talking about a dual batteried 72v system.
That would be 12 Deep Cycle Sealed Lead Acids. I don't see the savings nor
the reduction on the environment.



  #30  
Old March 5th 07, 08:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.autos.driving,alt.planning.urban,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides
Daryl Hunt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 134
Default Ride an SUB not an SUV


"Bill Baka" wrote in message
t...
George Conklin wrote:
"Bill Baka" wrote in message
...
Only if nobody rides them. When I was a kid in the Chicago area I could
go anywhere on a weekend with a travel buddy of mine. We took the train
into downtown, then the 'el' ( hard to explain), and over/underground
subway system. Then there were electric trolley buses, and finally
regular buses to get us within walking distance.
And, yes, any one of those modes of transportation sucks fuel big time
if nobody rides them. If they are full they are a good thing. SUV's and
single occupant soccer moms have messed up the equation.
Bill Baka


Actually a SUV would use about the same fuel as a current transit bus.


If it was electric the only defense I can make is that it had better have
some dame good regenerative braking. Then all that mass that had to be
accelerated could charge the batteries again during the stop.
Mass transit is the one place where actual full electrics do make sense.
Since they almost never make it over about 35 MPH in the city there would
be very little in the higher speed move the air and use power mode.
Getting this electricity from a central (clean) power plant would make a
lot more sense than the current non-regenerative and smoky diesels.
A multi million dollar power plant is going to make more power per ppm of
pollutant than ANY car ever will.


We run and export Hydroelectric power from here. We don't use Coal or Gas
to make our power. This is the cleanest electricity you are going to get
save for Solor or Wind. By a certain year, all electric power will be from
either wind or solar in this state. We do ship coal to the east and west
coast for your power plants though. The only place we use that coal on a
large scale basis is in just a couple of Refineries to make gas and diesel.
Electricity to us is cheaper than yours and clean.

Okay, that being said, Regenerative Braking is only useful on large heavy
vehicles like Trains and Buses. The mass must be sufficient to get a decent
return. Much like a Jake Brake on a Truck, regen braking helps to either
slow the vehicle down or just put drag to keep it from becoming a runaway on
a downhill run. It also would help stopping a Bus from 35 mph along with
the brakes. Again, the bus has the mass.

SUVs, Cars and 2 wheelers don't have the mass and the regen braking would
cost you more than it would return. Attempting to rely on the regen braking
for returned electic power is foolish. Now, if you use it for drag on the
car or SUV then it would be welcome since it would be like dropping down one
gear. But don't look for any appreicative return of electric power.

Now, on to Bikes, at 3 bucks a gallon it's time to turn up the heat on our
legaslatures once again. When it dropped below 2 bucks we lost any momentum
we had. It's time to fire up the embers under the politicians asse.

No jokes about Hydrogen power plants either.


You mean I can't do even one? Sheesh, this is a tough audience.



 




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