Thank heavens for super-accurate cyclocomputers!

Without modern cyclocomputers, how could bicyclists know whether they
were obeying the proposed 8 mph law?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

***

Boulder May Put Brakes On Speeding Cyclists
November 13, 2011 9:32 AM

BOULDER, Colo. (CBS4)- Bicyclists in Boulder may have to watch how
fast they coast. The City Council is considering an 8 mph speed limit
for cyclists in certain locations.

The council will consider the speed limit proposal at next week’s
meeting. In the meantime, the ordinance has some cyclists pedaling
their opposition.

“The biking community wants to have consistent laws around the state.
People travel from city to city every day,” said Bicycle Colorado
Executive Director Dan Grunig.

Grunig has been hearing mutterings of a bike speed limit in Boulder
for a few months. The speed limit would only apply when cyclists are
pedaling through a crosswalk.

Grunig believes if that ordinance is approved, the law could do more
harm than good.

“The problem with an 8 mph speed limit is that it blames the victim if
they are hit in the crosswalk. Now, if a cyclist is hit in a safety
crosswalk they have to prove they were going under 8 mph and that’s
not possible,” said Grunig.

“It just seems kind of like a silly rule, honestly. I feel like as a
cyclist we just obey the same rules as cars do. If they don’t have to
do it, then we probably shouldn’t have to do it either,” said cyclist
Aaron Barcheck.

Some cyclists feel the 8 mph limit is too slow. Others said they would
support the speed limit, including one man who was hit by another
cyclist.

“I don’t have a problem with that,” said cyclist Larry Ardito.
“Sometimes people just don’t slow down or obey the signs.”

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/11/1...ding-cyclists/

***

On Nov 15, 5:58*am, wrote:
Without modern cyclocomputers, how could bicyclists know whether they
were obeying the proposed 8 mph law?

By taking not less than 7:30 between mileposts.


Cheers,

Carl Fogel

***

Boulder May Put Brakes On Speeding Cyclists
November 13, 2011 9:32 AM

BOULDER, Colo. (CBS4)- Bicyclists in Boulder may have to watch how
fast they coast. The City Council is considering an 8 mph speed limit
for cyclists in certain locations.

The council will consider the speed limit proposal at next week’s
meeting. In the meantime, the ordinance has some cyclists pedaling
their opposition.

“The biking community wants to have consistent laws around the state.
People travel from city to city every day,” said Bicycle Colorado
Executive Director Dan Grunig.

Grunig has been hearing mutterings of a bike speed limit in Boulder
for a few months. The speed limit would only apply when cyclists are
pedaling through a crosswalk.

Grunig believes if that ordinance is approved, the law could do more
harm than good.

“The problem with an 8 mph speed limit is that it blames the victim if
they are hit in the crosswalk. Now, if a cyclist is hit in a safety
crosswalk they have to prove they were going under 8 mph and that’s
not possible,” said Grunig.

“It just seems kind of like a silly rule, honestly. I feel like as a
cyclist we just obey the same rules as cars do. If they don’t have to
do it, then we probably shouldn’t have to do it either,” said cyclist
Aaron Barcheck.

Some cyclists feel the 8 mph limit is too slow. Others said they would
support the speed limit, including one man who was hit by another
cyclist.

“I don’t have a problem with that,” said cyclist Larry Ardito.
“Sometimes people just don’t slow down or obey the signs.”

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/11/1...rakes-on-speed...

***

On Nov 15, 12:58*am, wrote:

Without modern cyclocomputers, how could bicyclists know whether they
were obeying the proposed 8 mph law?

There should be an electronic disabling mechanism installed in the
hub, so if someone rides faster than 8 mph through a crosswalk the hub
locks up. I would imagine that that would be pretty effective.
Whether you were launched, or saw someone else get launched, you'd be
damned sure to slower than the esc(r)ape velocity.

What I didn't catch from that article was when a rider had to ride
slower than 8 mph through a crosswalk. I'm not familiar with
Boulder's setup - are all crosswalks yield-to-the pedestrian? Cars
must stop for a pedestrian that's trying to cross the street?

R

On Nov 14, 9:58*pm, wrote:
Without modern cyclocomputers, how could bicyclists know whether they
were obeying the proposed 8 mph law?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

***

Boulder May Put Brakes On Speeding Cyclists
November 13, 2011 9:32 AM

BOULDER, Colo. (CBS4)- Bicyclists in Boulder may have to watch how
fast they coast. The City Council is considering an 8 mph speed limit
for cyclists in certain locations.

The council will consider the speed limit proposal at next week’s
meeting. In the meantime, the ordinance has some cyclists pedaling
their opposition.

“The biking community wants to have consistent laws around the state.
People travel from city to city every day,” said Bicycle Colorado
Executive Director Dan Grunig.

Grunig has been hearing mutterings of a bike speed limit in Boulder
for a few months. The speed limit would only apply when cyclists are
pedaling through a crosswalk.

Grunig believes if that ordinance is approved, the law could do more
harm than good.

“The problem with an 8 mph speed limit is that it blames the victim if
they are hit in the crosswalk. Now, if a cyclist is hit in a safety
crosswalk they have to prove they were going under 8 mph and that’s
not possible,” said Grunig.

“It just seems kind of like a silly rule, honestly. I feel like as a
cyclist we just obey the same rules as cars do. If they don’t have to
do it, then we probably shouldn’t have to do it either,” said cyclist
Aaron Barcheck.

Some cyclists feel the 8 mph limit is too slow. Others said they would
support the speed limit, including one man who was hit by another
cyclist.

“I don’t have a problem with that,” said cyclist Larry Ardito.
“Sometimes people just don’t slow down or obey the signs.”

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/11/1...rakes-on-speed...

***

I assume that by "through," the ordinance refers to riding in the
crosswalk from one side of a road to another and not just across a
crosswalk that is perpendicular to traffic (?) If so, that is no
different than similar laws requiring cyclists to ride at the speed of
pedestrian traffic while in pedestrial facilities. If not, then it is
bizarre.

In PDX, pedestrians have the right of way the moment they step in to a
crosswalk, and motorists downtown are compliant -- and I cross about a
zillion crosswalks every morning and have to watch like a hawk because
traffic will just stop. So, crossing at 8mph would be a benefit if
there were someone in the crosswalk. Otherwise, it would be a bizarre
hokey-pokey of unnecessary slowing down.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Nov 15, 3:29*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Nov 14, 9:58*pm, wrote:









Without modern cyclocomputers, how could bicyclists know whether they
were obeying the proposed 8 mph law?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

***

Boulder May Put Brakes On Speeding Cyclists
November 13, 2011 9:32 AM

BOULDER, Colo. (CBS4)- Bicyclists in Boulder may have to watch how
fast they coast. The City Council is considering an 8 mph speed limit
for cyclists in certain locations.

The council will consider the speed limit proposal at next week’s
meeting. In the meantime, the ordinance has some cyclists pedaling
their opposition.

“The biking community wants to have consistent laws around the state.
People travel from city to city every day,” said Bicycle Colorado
Executive Director Dan Grunig.

Grunig has been hearing mutterings of a bike speed limit in Boulder
for a few months. The speed limit would only apply when cyclists are
pedaling through a crosswalk.

Grunig believes if that ordinance is approved, the law could do more
harm than good.

“The problem with an 8 mph speed limit is that it blames the victim if
they are hit in the crosswalk. Now, if a cyclist is hit in a safety
crosswalk they have to prove they were going under 8 mph and that’s
not possible,” said Grunig.

“It just seems kind of like a silly rule, honestly. I feel like as a
cyclist we just obey the same rules as cars do. If they don’t have to
do it, then we probably shouldn’t have to do it either,” said cyclist
Aaron Barcheck.

Some cyclists feel the 8 mph limit is too slow. Others said they would
support the speed limit, including one man who was hit by another
cyclist.

“I don’t have a problem with that,” said cyclist Larry Ardito.
“Sometimes people just don’t slow down or obey the signs.”

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/11/1...rakes-on-speed...

***

I assume that by "through," the ordinance refers to riding in the
crosswalk from one side of a road to another and not just across a
crosswalk that is perpendicular to traffic (?) *If so, that is no
different than similar laws requiring cyclists to ride at the speed of
pedestrian traffic while in pedestrial facilities. *If not, then it is
bizarre.

In PDX, pedestrians have the right of way the moment they step in to a
crosswalk, and motorists downtown are compliant -- and I cross about a
zillion crosswalks every morning and have to watch like a hawk because
traffic will just stop. *So, crossing at 8mph would be a benefit if
there were someone in the crosswalk. *Otherwise, it would be a bizarre
hokey-pokey of unnecessary slowing down.

-- Jay Beattie.

In UK, we must (by law) give precedence to the pedestrian on a
crossing whatever carriage or beast we ride upon. Speed is
irrelevant, we stop (mostly).

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 06:05:02 -0800 (PST), RicodJour
wrote:

On Nov 15, 12:58*am, wrote:

Without modern cyclocomputers, how could bicyclists know whether they
were obeying the proposed 8 mph law?

There should be an electronic disabling mechanism installed in the
hub, so if someone rides faster than 8 mph through a crosswalk the hub
locks up. I would imagine that that would be pretty effective.
Whether you were launched, or saw someone else get launched, you'd be
damned sure to slower than the esc(r)ape velocity.

What I didn't catch from that article was when a rider had to ride
slower than 8 mph through a crosswalk. I'm not familiar with
Boulder's setup - are all crosswalks yield-to-the pedestrian? Cars
must stop for a pedestrian that's trying to cross the street?

R

Dear R,

Another article:

"Kurt Weiler, a Boulder police commander who helped draft the rules
going before the council, said officers soon could be clocking the
speed of pedestrians and cyclists in the city's crosswalks. He said it
would be up to the municipal court to determine fine amounts or
penalties for those who exceed the 8 mph limit or fail to activate
flashing lights."
http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-c...ws/ci_19311115

As for the nature of the Boulder crosswalks and the law, here's part
of 2006 comment:

"A couple of years ago, the city of Boulder, Colorado decided to
install new crosswalks for pedestrians to accommodate the large number
of student-pedestrians who walk from local neighborhoods to the
University of Colorado campus. These were no ordinary crosswalks,
however, because the city of Boulder decided not to place these new
crosswalks at intersections where one would expect pedestrians to
cross streets. They also decided against erecting pedestrian bridges
or digging pedestrian tunnels over or under the streets. Instead, in a
fit of bureaucratic idiocy worthy of Bismarck, the city of Boulder
decided to construct crosswalks across the middle of the busy streets
surrounding campus."

"Here’s how Boulder’s new crosswalks work. Pedestrians who want to
cross one of the busy streets surrounding campus approach one of the
new crosswalks. As they approach, traffic whizzes by at 30 miles per
hour, because there are neither stop signs nor traffic lights at the
crosswalk. When the pedestrian reaches the crosswalk, he presses a
button on a sign which lights up three flashing yellow light bulbs on
the crosswalk sign. These flashing yellow lights are meant to signal
to drivers that a pedestrian is crossing, and that they must
immediately stop in the middle of the road to allow the pedestrian to
cross. The pedestrian then crosses the road after having (hopefully)
stopped both directions of traffic."

"The extreme absurdity and danger of these crosswalks is hard to
convey in words. You really need to see them in action (or, better
still, cross one of them) in order to grasp how idiotic and reckless
the city of Boulder really was in constructing them. These crosswalks
are extremely dangerous, in the first place, because they employ
flashing yellow lights rather than red lights to stop drivers. I hate
to break it to the anti-car tree-huggers in Boulder, but red lights
mean 'stop' to drivers in this country, whereas yellow only means
'slow' or 'caution.' Drivers who have never been to Boulder surely
cannot be expected to know a priori that three flashing yellow lights
mean 'Stop: people are walking into moving traffic.'"
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/crovelli3.html

The author predicted accidents at these peculiar Boulder crosswalks,
and the new 8 mph proposal appears to be based on his prediction being
correct. Slowing cross-traffic to 8 mph seems unlikely to stop people
from being hit in crosswalks in the middle of the block by 30 mph
traffic when their only protection is strange non-standard blinking
yellow lights. A yellow light followed by a red light and a walk/don't
walk light would seem to be more sensible. We have them here in
Pueblo.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

writes:

"Kurt Weiler, a Boulder police commander who helped draft the rules
going before the council, said officers soon could be clocking the
speed of pedestrians and cyclists in the city's crosswalks. He said it
would be up to the municipal court to determine fine amounts or
penalties for those who exceed the 8 mph limit or fail to activate
flashing lights."

They are clocking the speed of *pedestrians*? This is
unprecedented as far as I know. Why bother? Are they really
going to fine people walking too fast?
--
"A computer is a state machine.
Threads are for people who cant [sic] program state machines."
--Alan Cox

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:46:18 -0800, (Ben Pfaff)
wrote:

writes:

"Kurt Weiler, a Boulder police commander who helped draft the rules
going before the council, said officers soon could be clocking the
speed of pedestrians and cyclists in the city's crosswalks. He said it
would be up to the municipal court to determine fine amounts or
penalties for those who exceed the 8 mph limit or fail to activate
flashing lights."

They are clocking the speed of *pedestrians*? This is
unprecedented as far as I know. Why bother? Are they really
going to fine people walking too fast?

Dear Ben,

Surely you can understand that radar-enforced 8 mph speed limits are
the only practical alternative to attaching the traditional balls and
chains to Boulder's notorious pedestrians?

Presumably the police pursuing the 9 mph scofflaws will wear hats
equipped with flashing emergency lights and sirens, but will be
ordered by their supervisors to break off pursuit if speeds exceed 12
mph.

Of course, the problem could be solved by replacing the strange
middle-of-the-busy block flashing-yellow crosswalks with the
traditional traffic signals (red lights and walk/don'twalk) used
elsewhere in Colorado.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

writes:

Of course, the problem could be solved by replacing the strange
middle-of-the-busy block flashing-yellow crosswalks with the
traditional traffic signals (red lights and walk/don'twalk) used
elsewhere in Colorado.

There is a crosswalk like this at least one place locally, in
Menlo Park, CA. It normally works OK, but it's also in a place
that has only slow-moving traffic most of the time.

The reason to use this style of crosswalk is obvious: it is
obviously much cheaper to install than a traditional traffic
signal, because there are no large and expensive poles or
overhead lights or signs.
--
"I consider that the golden rule requires that if I like a program
I must share it with other people who like it."
--Richard Stallman

On Nov 15, 12:34*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 06:05:02 -0800 (PST), RicodJour









wrote:
On Nov 15, 12:58*am, wrote:

Without modern cyclocomputers, how could bicyclists know whether they
were obeying the proposed 8 mph law?

There should be an electronic disabling mechanism installed in the
hub, so if someone rides faster than 8 mph through a crosswalk the hub
locks up. *I would imagine that that would be pretty effective.
Whether you were launched, or saw someone else get launched, you'd be
damned sure to slower than the esc(r)ape velocity.

What I didn't catch from that article was when a rider had to ride
slower than 8 mph through a crosswalk. *I'm not familiar with
Boulder's setup - are all crosswalks yield-to-the pedestrian? *Cars
must stop for a pedestrian that's trying to cross the street?

R

Dear R,

Another article:

"Kurt Weiler, a Boulder police commander who helped draft the rules
going before the council, said officers soon could be clocking the
speed of pedestrians and cyclists in the city's crosswalks. He said it
would be up to the municipal court to determine fine amounts or
penalties for those who exceed the 8 mph limit or fail to activate
flashing lights."
*http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-c...ws/ci_19311115

As for the nature of the Boulder crosswalks and the law, here's part
of 2006 comment:

"A couple of years ago, the city of Boulder, Colorado decided to
install new crosswalks for pedestrians to accommodate the large number
of student-pedestrians who walk from local neighborhoods to the
University of Colorado campus. These were no ordinary crosswalks,
however, because the city of Boulder decided not to place these new
crosswalks at intersections where one would expect pedestrians to
cross streets. They also decided against erecting pedestrian bridges
or digging pedestrian tunnels over or under the streets. Instead, in a
fit of bureaucratic idiocy worthy of Bismarck, the city of Boulder
decided to construct crosswalks across the middle of the busy streets
surrounding campus."

"Here’s how Boulder’s new crosswalks work. Pedestrians who want to
cross one of the busy streets surrounding campus approach one of the
new crosswalks. As they approach, traffic whizzes by at 30 miles per
hour, because there are neither stop signs nor traffic lights at the
crosswalk. When the pedestrian reaches the crosswalk, he presses a
button on a sign which lights up three flashing yellow light bulbs on
the crosswalk sign. These flashing yellow lights are meant to signal
to drivers that a pedestrian is crossing, and that they must
immediately stop in the middle of the road to allow the pedestrian to
cross. The pedestrian then crosses the road after having (hopefully)
stopped both directions of traffic."

"The extreme absurdity and danger of these crosswalks is hard to
convey in words. You really need to see them in action (or, better
still, cross one of them) in order to grasp how idiotic and reckless
the city of Boulder really was in constructing them. These crosswalks
are extremely dangerous, in the first place, because they employ
flashing yellow lights rather than red lights to stop drivers. I hate
to break it to the anti-car tree-huggers in Boulder, but red lights
mean 'stop' to drivers in this country, whereas yellow only means
'slow' or 'caution.' Drivers who have never been to Boulder surely
cannot be expected to know a priori that three flashing yellow lights
mean 'Stop: people are walking into moving traffic.'"
*http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/crovelli3.html

The author predicted accidents at these peculiar Boulder crosswalks,
and the new 8 mph proposal appears to be based on his prediction being
correct. Slowing cross-traffic to 8 mph seems unlikely to stop people
from being hit in crosswalks in the middle of the block by 30 mph
traffic when their only protection is strange non-standard blinking
yellow lights. A yellow light followed by a red light and a walk/don't
walk light would seem to be more sensible. We have them here in
Pueblo.

Wow. What a cluster**** of bureaucrats! I'm sure they'll eventually
dumb the whole thing down to the point that a blind three year old
will be free to wander the streets without any danger of being run
over by a bike car or sprinting pedestrian.

You know those local news Shame On You! type of programs? There
should be one solely devoted to self-righteous traphic ungineers and
their stupid solutions to standard problems.

R