Bike adjustments

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:00:35 -0800, sms
wrote:

Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
fit?kind of, sort of.

Agreed. That sort of works:
https://www.thegeekycyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/An-Adult-on-A-Kids-Bike-1024x865.jpg


I’m not sure where you would get the seat post, stem and spacers to make
that bike work, but aside from way too much frame flex and steering that
would feel like a tiller, I suppose you could make it work.

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:33:00 PM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:00:35 -0800, sms
wrote:

Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
fit?kind of, sort of.

Agreed. That sort of works:
https://www.thegeekycyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/An-Adult-on-A-Kids-Bike-1024x865.jpg


I’m not sure where you would get the seat post, stem and spacers to make
that bike work, but aside from way too much frame flex and steering that
would feel like a tiller, I suppose you could make it work.

What do you mean? It works perfectly according to Bikefitters.Com and recently completed studies at the human performance laboratory at The University of Buffalo at West Tulsa. Keeping the body coiled and bringing the knees to the chest produces both an aerodynamic advantage AND radically improved power output as compared to now out-dated "macro" frame designs. It is almost certain that your bike is too big for you and that you need a significantly smaller frame -- and 350C wheels, tubeless, carbon fiber and with new "tiny-disc" technology.

-- Jay Beattie.


-- Jay Beattie.

On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:02:35 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 8:20:33 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 23:03:31 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

Lou

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?

Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.


Yes that is what I thought. 7 body measurements (left and right footlength ???) which resulted in 19 adjustment proposals, even a seattube angle of 73.74 degrees. WTF? Bike will be custom build (parts) but frame will not be custom. I just wanted the right size to begin with (over-the counter) and not ending up with a 80 mm stem. These are good guys btw but they soon found out that I'm not the average customer ;-) They are dealers of BMC, Cannondale, Cervelo, IDworx, Santos, De Rosa, Bianchi and the brand I'm buying now which made me part of an American family. How about that for marketing ;-)

Lou.

It used to be much simpler. Buy a bike that you could stand over; set
the seat height and position; set the stem position; ride the bike and
make any more changes.

It still works for me :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Yes I remembered that time, where all frames had horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars to choose from and of course that awful quill stem. Most of the time people rode to large frames. That time passed thank god.

Lou

Really? And just how are modern bikes fitted better? Do your feet
reach the pedals better? Do your hands reach the handlebars better?

But tell us how far back your memories reach. Brooks, for example made
various models of bicycle seats in 1880
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 08:52:04 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:00:40 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 12/7/2019 3:28 PM, wrote:

snip

Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

No.

It used to be that stock frames came in 2cm increments from 46 cm to 64
cm so for most riders it wasn't necessary to order a custom frame. You
might need to change the stem reach a little but you could get very
close to an ideal fit unless you had short legs and long arms or
vice-versa. When I bought my touring bicycle, a 57 cm would have been
ideal but I had to choose between a 56cm and a 58cm. At the time, the
conventional wisdom was to go 1cm up for touring bicycles and 1cm down
for road bicycles, so I went up. That was fine when I bought it, but 34
years later it's too big for me.

Yes, stock frames came in 2cm increments with often dreadful "scaling up" for larger frames that ended up with too short top tubes. Even after the LeMond longer top tube revolution, Colnago steel frames in 1994 in the 63cm size (my size) had TTs that were a full 1 -1.5 centimeter (not mm)shorter than current sizing conventions. https://saarf00.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/21.jpg It was more likely that you would need a custom frame back then than now.

Also, back in the day, it was all obscure knowledge and mysticism about how one should fit on a bike -- flat back, hump back, KOP or not, etc., etc. There were no fit kits and master fitters and all the things that lead to prescriptive size and position that are popular today. Even custom builders back then tended to make bikes with shortish top tubes.

I had five custom steel frames built for me (ultimately all broken or stolen). When I cracked a head tube lug on my racing bike in 1984, I needed a quick replacement and found a first generation Cannondale at a local store. It fit great, and I never looked back. On a lark,many years later, I re-brazed by broken racing frame and brought it back from the dead. Even with a 13cm stem, the TT was too short for my tastes. I couldn't imagine how I raced that thing and loved it.

-- Jay Beattie.

Ah, but are you as strong and lithe today as you were 30 years ago?
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 9:38:30 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 6:11:23 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:03:34 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

Lou

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?

Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.


Yes that is what I thought. 7 body measurements (left and right footlength ???) which resulted in 19 adjustment proposals, even a seattube angle of 73.74 degrees. WTF? Bike will be custom build (parts) but frame will not be custom. I just wanted the right size to begin with (over-the counter) and not ending up with a 80 mm stem. These are good guys btw but they soon found out that I'm not the average customer ;-) They are dealers of BMC, Cannondale, Cervelo, IDworx, Santos, De Rosa, Bianchi and the brand I'm buying now which made me part of an American family. How about that for marketing ;-)

Lou.

What brand?

-- Jay Beattie.

I think John and Frank can't handle it ;-) American made and it replaces my Litespeed as bad weather bike and for light off road use. You figure it out ;-).

If it's the US Ti gravel bike I think, then that purchase (depending on component group) may measurably affect the trade balance between the US and NL.. Considering the amount of actual gravel riding I do, I'm more than content with my bargain Norco Search CF. I'm going to spend my money on some better tires, though.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 23:32:55 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:00:35 -0800, sms
wrote:

Manufacturers got tired of manufacturing ten different frame sizes so
now they'll make four to six different "compact" frame sizes and use
various combinations of seat posts, stems, and spacers to make things
fit?kind of, sort of.

Agreed. That sort of works:
https://www.thegeekycyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/An-Adult-on-A-Kids-Bike-1024x865.jpg

I’m not sure where you would get the seat post, stem and spacers to make
that bike work, but aside from way too much frame flex and steering that
would feel like a tiller, I suppose you could make it work.

Probably not. I recently gave away a Trek 1400 road bike:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/Trek-1400.html
I really liked the bicycle, but the frame was too small for me. I
forgot the official frame size, but it seemed to be made for someone
smaller and shorter. I could extend the seat post, stem, crank
length, and handlebars. However I could do nothing to prevent my feet
from hitting the trailing end of the front wheel.

I suspect doing the same (extended seat post, stem, crank, and
handlebars, would fail for the same reasons on the Gitane frame in the
photo. Of course, larger diameter wheels would be needed, possibly
using fork extenders. While the Gitane frame might be an extreme
example, I question whether adding extensions will be all that
practical for even slightly undersized frames. I don't know as I've
never tried it.

Incidentally, I don't seem to have much of a problem adjusting to
variations in fit. At one point, I owned 5 or 6 bicycles.
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/5bikes.html
I often rotated components on 3 of these for experiments. It would
take me a few minutes of riding to adjust, after which some minor
tweaks would eventually produce a usable fit. Except for the
occasional really bad idea or really sloppy adjustment, I had no
problems adjusting to changes. It's much the same with pianos,
organs, and computah keyboards, where each keyboard is very different,
and requires some time to adjust. If I were trying to optimize
performance or endurance, I might be more particular, but asking for a
1mm tolerance to be considered acceptable, is far beyond what I
consider to be necessary.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 11:20:44 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/8/2019 9:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:02:37 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 8:20:33 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 23:03:31 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

Lou

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?

Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.


Yes that is what I thought. 7 body measurements (left and right footlength ???) which resulted in 19 adjustment proposals, even a seattube angle of 73.74 degrees. WTF? Bike will be custom build (parts) but frame will not be custom. I just wanted the right size to begin with (over-the counter) and not ending up with a 80 mm stem. These are good guys btw but they soon found out that I'm not the average customer ;-) They are dealers of BMC, Cannondale, Cervelo, IDworx, Santos, De Rosa, Bianchi and the brand I'm buying now which made me part of an American family. How about that for marketing ;-)

Lou.

It used to be much simpler. Buy a bike that you could stand over; set
the seat height and position; set the stem position; ride the bike and
make any more changes.

It still works for me :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Yes I remembered that time, where all frames had horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars to choose from and of course that awful quill stem. Most of the time people rode to large frames. That time passed thank god.

Lou

And those saddles were absolutely horrible. A leather saddle that would take a year of heavy riding to break in or a Regal saddle that would chaff you between the legs so badly that you could hardly walk after a long ride.

Those were terrible, terrible times! Oh, the agony bicyclists endured!

The only people on bikes back then must have been the crazies and the
masochists. Thank God the marketing industry has saved us!

Granted that I am a cynic but I wonder whether all the folderol about
bike fitting is simply to justify the several hundred dollars that
being "properly" fitted costs?
See https://www.bcbikefit.com/pricing/

Just think 2 hours and $395 and your "mobile" bike will fit.

To be honest though, I'm not exactly sure what a "mobile" bike is? Are
there immobile bikes?
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:13:30 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?

1mm of my desired posture on the bike, of course. What else?

My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

I could ask the same kind of cantankerous question as your question:
What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
say, "What does it even mean that your fit changes? From what?" But I won't.. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you're talking about.

If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,

The better baukast (a German custom bike house, more precisely semi-custom as some of them are pretty big, and there are some German full-custom makers who'll build you a custom frame from scratch) has a philosophy and a set of frames to match it, and many sets of components approved by being tested to destruction, in the case of my chosen baukast in many cases designed for them by first-class German, Dutch and Belgian component makers. First you ascertain that the philosophy of the main man at the baukast fits you, then you check that one of their bike sizes fits you, then they change components until it fits you perfectly. At my chosen baukast, for instance, they consider tall seatposts bad engineering, as do I. So they want you to sit comfortably with your feet on the pedals without adjusting the designed-in seat height more than fractionally. And so on, point for point matching my outlook/prejudices, desires. Next thing I looked for is that all their bikes are truly scaled because they ordered custom tubes from Columbus, none of those Gunnar abortions of very tall bikes with very short chain stays because that's what the manufacturer had in stock. So their bikes have long wheelbases in relation to size, and that too is good, because I like to know how a bike will handle at the limit before I buy it, and a long wheelbase is half the battle for predictable handling. Etc, etc, a lot of stuff you won't understand, or want to hear, because you find me "tedious".

what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

I own two other bikes that serve the same purpose, from Gazelle and Trek, people with very clued-in designers and marketing departments. My Utopia is fundamentally different in almost every respect, and does a great many things better than they do. But, since you drive a Subaru, and buy your bikes over the counter, you won't understand how these many advantages, some of them objectively small to the uninitiated, can add up to permanent satisfaction. In fact, I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike. I couldn't care less about other people's opinion, but I understand those who'd rather blend with the moo-moo herd.

Andre Jute
My bike still fits me to within 1mm. In twenty years, when I'm as old and creaky as Jay, I might have to adjust it.

On 12/8/2019 6:32 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:13:30 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?

1mm of my desired posture on the bike, of course. What else?

My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

I could ask the same kind of cantankerous question as your question:
What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
say, "What does it even mean that your fit changes? From what?" But I won't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you're talking about.

If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,

The better baukast (a German custom bike house, more precisely semi-custom as some of them are pretty big, and there are some German full-custom makers who'll build you a custom frame from scratch) has a philosophy and a set of frames to match it, and many sets of components approved by being tested to destruction, in the case of my chosen baukast in many cases designed for them by first-class German, Dutch and Belgian component makers. First you ascertain that the philosophy of the main man at the baukast fits you, then you check that one of their bike sizes fits you, then they change components until it fits you perfectly. At my chosen baukast, for instance, they consider tall seatposts bad engineering, as do I. So they want you to sit comfortably with your feet on the pedals without adjusting the designed-in seat height more than fractionally. And so on, point for point matching my outlook/prejudices, desires. Next thing I looked for is that all their bikes are truly scaled bec
ause they ordered custom tubes from Columbus, none of those Gunnar abortions of very tall bikes with very short chain stays because that's what the manufacturer had in stock. So their bikes have long wheelbases in relation to size, and that too is good, because I like to know how a bike will handle at the limit before I buy it, and a long wheelbase is half the battle for predictable handling. Etc, etc, a lot of stuff you won't understand, or want to hear, because you find me "tedious".

what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

I own two other bikes that serve the same purpose, from Gazelle and Trek, people with very clued-in designers and marketing departments. My Utopia is fundamentally different in almost every respect, and does a great many things better than they do. But, since you drive a Subaru, and buy your bikes over the counter, you won't understand how these many advantages, some of them objectively small to the uninitiated, can add up to permanent satisfaction. In fact, I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike. I couldn't care less about other people's opinion, but I understand those who'd rather blend with the moo-moo herd.

Andre Jute
My bike still fits me to within 1mm. In twenty years, when I'm as old and creaky as Jay, I might have to adjust it.


'Gunar abortion' WTF?

Gunnar _race bikes_ have short chainstays, suitable to race
bike riders/customers.

Of their 16 models, that's four (2 single speed, two
geared). The long wheelbase styles (most of the line) are
longer.

http://gunnarbikes.com


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 2:40:40 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 7:13:30 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what? My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen, what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

-- Jay Beattie.

Mythology Jay. Cycling is rife with it and you know that.

A fellow I know went to an LBS where the fitter had "a bigger rep than the guy who hands you your coffee at the machine". He thought *he* was being fitted but after a lot of shoving and pushing, the clerk said, outraged, "You don't fit any of our bikes!"

*****

The customer complained that his new suit didn't fit. 'The sleeves are too short,' he said to the tailor.

'Yes sir,' said the tailor, 'but if you hold your arm just so, at an angle as if you're drinking tea with your auntie, it will show just the right amount of cuff.'

The customer tried it. The tailor was right! 'But what about the other sleeve? It is definitely too short.'

'Just lower your shoulder, sir. Yes, yes, a little more. Put your foot out so you can lower your shoulder a little more still. Bend your knee. Yes, that's it. See how beautifully your suitcoat now fits?'

The customer had to admit the tailor was right. 'Wow. But now the leg of the pants is all twisted around.'

'That's easily fixed,' said the tailor. 'Just point your other toe westward, sir, and look over your shoulder to where I am holding up the hand mirror.. See? Doesn't that fit beautifully?'

'Yes,' the customer said doubtfully, 'but-'

'Now would sir like to wear his brilliant new suit or shall we wrap it?'

The customer was too intimidated to argue. He walked out into the street in his new suit, his arm crooked as if he were drinking tea, his other shoulder well down over a bent knee with his foot out to the side, his other foot pointing westwards, his head twisted back between hunched shoulders as if complaining to God about a cruel fate.

Behind him he heard a boy say to his father. 'Oh, Daddy, look at the poor twisted cripple.'

'Hush,' the father said. 'Be grateful the poor man found such a brilliant tailor.'

From http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...dre%20Jute.htm

****

Andre Jute
Euphonics