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  #31  
Old December 19th 16, 11:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Age and Heart Rates

On 2016-12-17 21:42, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 14:22:20 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-12-17 14:05, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Fri, 16 Dec 2016
13:51:14 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:


[...]

... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

The furthest I've commuted was a daily trip of 21 miles each way, but
I know of one cyclist who commuted about double that for several
years, from Dunstable to central London.


We hired away a UK engineer, a very skinny guy. He had a commute
somewhere north of 30mi, also near London. This guy rode a bike every
day even in the driving rain. When he and his family arrived here in the
US he no longer rode. Considering the absence of bike facilities this
was fully understandable back then since that also caused me to stop riding.


Yup. I had a machinist from Newcastle worked for me that did the same
thing. When he worked in England he and all his mates rode a push bike
to work and back. Then he immigrated and got a job at Pratt & Whitney
and never rode a bike again..... He suddenly had enough money to buy a
second hand car :-)


Very different scenario here. This guy held a Ph.D. already back then
and had a commensurate income. He probably rode for similar reasons you
and I ride.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Ads
  #32  
Old December 20th 16, 10:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Age and Heart Rates

On 2016-12-19 18:59, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Mon, 19 Dec 2016
13:57:12 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-17 21:12, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2016 5:22 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-17 14:05, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Fri, 16 Dec 2016
13:51:14 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:

[...]

... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

The furthest I've commuted was a daily trip of 21 miles each way, but
I know of one cyclist who commuted about double that for several
years, from Dunstable to central London.


We hired away a UK engineer, a very skinny guy. He had a commute
somewhere north of 30mi, also near London. This guy rode a bike every
day even in the driving rain. When he and his family arrived here in the
US he no longer rode. Considering the absence of bike facilities this
was fully understandable back then since that also caused me to stop
riding.

When did you hire this guy? Where, exactly, did he ride in Britain?


In 1998. I forgot the exact route.


There weren't ANY in the UK that long in 1998.
Zero, none, zilch, that were even half that long!



As I have said before side roads, residential roads and agricultural
roads with little vehicle traffic are quite acceptable in lieu of bike
paths. Smart cyclists tend to find those.




I'm curious how he found a 30 mile commuting route near London that had
a significant proportion on bike facilities. What were they?


It's too long ago and we haven't remained in contact after our company
was acquired.

Bike facilities were not his main concern. However, he noticed exactly
the same effect that I noticed after moving here from Europe. American
motorists are generally more polite than European ones but unfortunately
also way less attentive to road conditions and the driving job in
general. With the advent of fancier cell phones that has become much
worse. On my ways down in the valley it doesn't matter to me as a
cyclist because the bike paths are mostly so far segregated that I don't
even hear the traffic. On the way up here, very different story.

We get the same cellphones here, and as you accurately state, road
manners are generally worse, not better - and lanes narrower!
I would suggest that there was some other reason for his stopping
cycling than the road conditions or the amount of cycling specific
infrastructure.
Maybe the change in climate and unsettling effects of the move broke
his fitness below that necessary to make the commute, and he lost the
habit. Maybe it was further or hillier (London isn't very hilly at
all), or maybe it was just the low cost of cars and gas in the US.



No hills down there either, only where I live and cyclists in my area
simply become used to them. I merely repeated what he commented.


There are plenty of possible reasons/excuses beyond safety arguments -
particularly if it's being compared to a ride into or around London,
which has the worst (and worst behaved) motor traffic in the UK!



It wasn't to the inner city or even close. Home and workplace were
outside the city.



Now that bike infrastructure is gradually being put in people start
riding bikes. Including myself. I guess for the auto industry that is
not a good thing because my yearly car mileage is down to 1200mi. 4000mi
on the bikes.

Somehow, I don't think General Motors is going to notice. See
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/10315

"2016 experienced the largest annual increase in VMT since tracking
began in 1971."


I meant my contribution to the auto industry. It is quite possible that
our current vehicles which are both around 20 years old might live many
more decades. Like the 1954 pickup truck my MTB buddy has.

Naturally, the vast majority of our neighbors does not live like that
and rides just about every mile inside a car. Sometimes even if it's
just a few hundred yards.


I noticed that in the US, and it mostly seemed to be pure habit.



I'd use a stronger expression: Laziness.


The company I used to work for with an office in Tulsa used to send me
out a few times a year, and people in the building where the office
was located were alarmed at my walking to work - from the hotel NEXT
DOOR! Utterly ridiculous, as I actually traveled further vertically
after entering the building than I did horizontally to reach it - so
much so, that I used the stairs some of the time, just for the
exercise. If I'd had a bicycle out there, I'd have used it for going
out in the evenings, but it was easier to get hold of a car (the
office manager out there used to lend me her son's z28 Camaro, in
return for service advice (the suspension was best described as a
project!), which got less necessary as things got fixed and he learned
how to look after it.



A Z28 is real fun to drive.


When you can get a drivers permit at so young an age and so easily as
in all the states I know about, ....



It's changing. The recent generation is know for a serious lack of
interest in obtaining a driver's license. They are happy in their little
virtual cyber world. Sad.


... nearly all types of business have
drive through facilities, and they even build big parking lots at
schools, driving to school becomes a status thing (and the first
personal and private space that most teenagers enjoy!), people stop
using anything else, and it's hard to get them back into the habit.


The topper and this was in the early 80's: We returned a long term
rental car. The rental place's owner was completely stunned when we
presented the invoice for changing oil and air filter. We obviously were
the first to think of such stuff and he profoundly thanked us, then
handed us a check. The place had no cash but he sad the bank is right
across the street. However, drive-through only. We came back "Hey, can
we have that car for another couple hundred yards and five minutes to
cash the check?" ... of course we could. It was weird.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #33  
Old December 20th 16, 10:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Age and Heart Rates

On 2016-12-19 19:12, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Mon, 19 Dec 2016
14:01:33 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-17 21:42, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 14:22:20 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-12-17 14:05, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Fri, 16 Dec 2016
13:51:14 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:

[...]

... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

The furthest I've commuted was a daily trip of 21 miles each way, but
I know of one cyclist who commuted about double that for several
years, from Dunstable to central London.


We hired away a UK engineer, a very skinny guy. He had a commute
somewhere north of 30mi, also near London. This guy rode a bike every
day even in the driving rain. When he and his family arrived here in the
US he no longer rode. Considering the absence of bike facilities this
was fully understandable back then since that also caused me to stop riding.

Yup. I had a machinist from Newcastle worked for me that did the same
thing. When he worked in England he and all his mates rode a push bike
to work and back. Then he immigrated and got a job at Pratt & Whitney
and never rode a bike again..... He suddenly had enough money to buy a
second hand car :-)


Very different scenario here. This guy held a Ph.D. already back then
and had a commensurate income. He probably rode for similar reasons you
and I ride.

[...]

You may be seriously over-estimating the earning potential of a PhD
here (and then), depending on the industry, specialism and university.
We produce more than we need in most fields, so with an abundance of
supply comes a lower earnings potential, even if he had a fair bit of
experience (as suggested by his having a family, his PhD was probably
not that newly minted).


I know, the low salaries for engineers in the UK were known a for long
time. It's not wonder because the tech base is shriveling up. Ferranti,
Plessey, and so on, all largely evaporated.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #34  
Old December 20th 16, 10:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Age and Heart Rates

On 2016-12-19 18:35, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Sat, 17 Dec 2016
14:22:20 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-17 14:05, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Fri, 16 Dec 2016
13:51:14 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:


[...]

... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

The furthest I've commuted was a daily trip of 21 miles each way, but
I know of one cyclist who commuted about double that for several
years, from Dunstable to central London.


We hired away a UK engineer, a very skinny guy. He had a commute
somewhere north of 30mi, also near London. This guy rode a bike every
day even in the driving rain. When he and his family arrived here in the
US he no longer rode. Considering the absence of bike facilities this
was fully understandable back then since that also caused me to stop riding.

Now that bike infrastructure is gradually being put in people start
riding bikes. Including myself. I guess for the auto industry that is
not a good thing because my yearly car mileage is down to 1200mi. 4000mi
on the bikes.


Almost none of that commute from Dunstable has any dedicated cycling
infrastructure - it was all on roads with speed limits outside towns
and villages of either 60 or 70mph.
My own former 21 mile commute had precisely zero dedicated cycling
infrastructure, and was almost all on single carriageway roads with 1
lane each way and a 60mph speed limit, but varying lane widths (some
easily adequate for a pair of tractor trailers to pass without
slowing, others which required one of them to pull over for anything
bigger than a Fiat 500 - or more likely, force the oncoming car to
pull over!).

Your problem is that you have the cart ahead of the horse.



No, this is the way the vast majority of people here think and for good
reasons.


When there are enough cyclists, there are also enough of them to be a
significant voting block, and cycling infrastructure gets funded,
particularly as it's seen as a way to speed the flow of motor traffic
by getting all those pesky cyclists (for whom the roads were
originally sealed and who use the roads by right) out of the way of
the motorists (who only use the roads by permit and under strict
conditions).


In this day and age it only works if the planning guys take a leap of
faith and build it. Like they did in Folsom, with resounding success.
Same in Manhattan, and Portland, and ...


As long as there are very few cyclists, you don't get any pressure
from either the motorists (who perceive, usually wrongly, delays from
having to wait to pass cyclists - it's only less time waiting in the
next queue of motor traffic, after all) or from the timid or less
capable road cyclists, who don't know how to ride in motor traffic
safely (or those who worry on their behalf, regardless of real danger,
just because of perceived danger based on their own competence level
instead of that of the rider or that of the overwhelming majority of
motorists).


Smart cyclists know of the real danger. They know how to ride correctly
and as the law demands. It does demand AFRAP here unless taking the lane
is allowed.

Example: I was riding a road like the one you described above every
week, a "utility ride". There is one narrow bridge where I always took
the lane. Until one fine day when a guy gunned it, passed me, realized
opposing traffic and almost pushed me over the railing of that bridge.
Since that day I use the car unless a bush road is passable via MTB (it
floods a lot and I have to show up non-muddy). It's safer.

Countless other examples. Some ended fatally for the cyclists, hit from
behind at high speed. Sticking the head into the sand and hoping it's
not going to happen to you might work. Or it might not. For those of us
who have to provide for families it's not just about our lives.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #35  
Old December 20th 16, 11:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Age and Heart Rates

On Monday, December 19, 2016 at 1:57:14 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-17 21:12, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2016 5:22 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-17 14:05, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Fri, 16 Dec 2016
13:51:14 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:

[...]

... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

The furthest I've commuted was a daily trip of 21 miles each way, but
I know of one cyclist who commuted about double that for several
years, from Dunstable to central London.


We hired away a UK engineer, a very skinny guy. He had a commute
somewhere north of 30mi, also near London. This guy rode a bike every
day even in the driving rain. When he and his family arrived here in the
US he no longer rode. Considering the absence of bike facilities this
was fully understandable back then since that also caused me to stop
riding.


When did you hire this guy? Where, exactly, did he ride in Britain?


In 1998. I forgot the exact route.


I'm curious how he found a 30 mile commuting route near London that had
a significant proportion on bike facilities. What were they?


It's too long ago and we haven't remained in contact after our company
was acquired.

Bike facilities were not his main concern. However, he noticed exactly
the same effect that I noticed after moving here from Europe. American
motorists are generally more polite than European ones but unfortunately
also way less attentive to road conditions and the driving job in
general. With the advent of fancier cell phones that has become much
worse. On my ways down in the valley it doesn't matter to me as a
cyclist because the bike paths are mostly so far segregated that I don't
even hear the traffic. On the way up here, very different story.


Now that bike infrastructure is gradually being put in people start
riding bikes. Including myself. I guess for the auto industry that is
not a good thing because my yearly car mileage is down to 1200mi. 4000mi
on the bikes.


Somehow, I don't think General Motors is going to notice. See
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/10315

"2016 experienced the largest annual increase in VMT since tracking
began in 1971."


I meant my contribution to the auto industry. It is quite possible that
our current vehicles which are both around 20 years old might live many
more decades. Like the 1954 pickup truck my MTB buddy has.

Naturally, the vast majority of our neighbors does not live like that
and rides just about every mile inside a car. Sometimes even if it's
just a few hundred yards.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Well, It isn't as if I think that Asian women are "bad" driver but in your sense very inattentive.
  #36  
Old December 21st 16, 01:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Age and Heart Rates

On 12/20/2016 4:27 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-19 18:59, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Mon, 19 Dec 2016
13:57:12 -0800 the perfect time to write:

Naturally, the vast majority of our neighbors does not live like that
and rides just about every mile inside a car. Sometimes even if it's
just a few hundred yards.


I noticed that in the US, and it mostly seemed to be pure habit.



I'd use a stronger expression: Laziness.


Yes, you can certainly describe it that way. But please note, laziness
will not be significantly reduced by installation of some bike paths.

That's why the U.S. is never going to have even 3% of its utility
transport happen by bikes (barring some total economic collapse), no
matter how many segregated bike facilities you build.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #37  
Old December 21st 16, 01:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Age and Heart Rates

On 12/20/2016 4:39 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-19 18:35, Phil Lee wrote:

When there are enough cyclists, there are also enough of them to be a
significant voting block, and cycling infrastructure gets funded,
particularly as it's seen as a way to speed the flow of motor traffic
by getting all those pesky cyclists (for whom the roads were
originally sealed and who use the roads by right) out of the way of
the motorists (who only use the roads by permit and under strict
conditions).


In this day and age it only works if the planning guys take a leap of
faith and build it. Like they did in Folsom, with resounding success.


If you can call 1% "resounding success"!

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #38  
Old December 21st 16, 11:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Age and Heart Rates

On 2016-12-21 13:11, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Tue, 20 Dec 2016
13:27:04 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-19 18:59, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Mon, 19 Dec 2016
13:57:12 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-17 21:12, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2016 5:22 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-17 14:05, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Fri, 16 Dec 2016
13:51:14 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:

[...]

... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

The furthest I've commuted was a daily trip of 21 miles each way, but
I know of one cyclist who commuted about double that for several
years, from Dunstable to central London.


We hired away a UK engineer, a very skinny guy. He had a commute
somewhere north of 30mi, also near London. This guy rode a bike every
day even in the driving rain. When he and his family arrived here in the
US he no longer rode. Considering the absence of bike facilities this
was fully understandable back then since that also caused me to stop
riding.

When did you hire this guy? Where, exactly, did he ride in Britain?


In 1998. I forgot the exact route.

There weren't ANY in the UK that long in 1998.
Zero, none, zilch, that were even half that long!



As I have said before side roads, residential roads and agricultural
roads with little vehicle traffic are quite acceptable in lieu of bike
paths. Smart cyclists tend to find those.

Anywhere which would be regarded in the UK as "near London" would
include negotiating barriers like major trunk roads and motorways,
which only provide crossings for other major roads, forcing you to use
them.
The same is true for natural barriers like rivers, of course.



Same here. Crossing them is not a problem. Riding on them for more than
a few miles is a problem for most people. Or at least so uncomfortable
that they won't do it.

[...]


Now that bike infrastructure is gradually being put in people start
riding bikes. Including myself. I guess for the auto industry that is
not a good thing because my yearly car mileage is down to 1200mi. 4000mi
on the bikes.

Somehow, I don't think General Motors is going to notice. See
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/10315

"2016 experienced the largest annual increase in VMT since tracking
began in 1971."


I meant my contribution to the auto industry. It is quite possible that
our current vehicles which are both around 20 years old might live many
more decades. Like the 1954 pickup truck my MTB buddy has.

Naturally, the vast majority of our neighbors does not live like that
and rides just about every mile inside a car. Sometimes even if it's
just a few hundred yards.

I noticed that in the US, and it mostly seemed to be pure habit.



I'd use a stronger expression: Laziness.

The problem with using that word is that it's an instant turn-off for
anyone you are hoping to convert.
You don't win converts by antagonising them.



What makes you think that I use that in front of people I want to convince?

In this NG there will hardly be any lazy people since nearly all are
already experienced cyclists. Doctors discuss a dire prognosis very
openly among colleagues but, of course, not necessarily in front of a
sensitive patient.


The company I used to work for with an office in Tulsa used to send me
out a few times a year, and people in the building where the office
was located were alarmed at my walking to work - from the hotel NEXT
DOOR! Utterly ridiculous, as I actually traveled further vertically
after entering the building than I did horizontally to reach it - so
much so, that I used the stairs some of the time, just for the
exercise. If I'd had a bicycle out there, I'd have used it for going
out in the evenings, but it was easier to get hold of a car (the
office manager out there used to lend me her son's z28 Camaro, in
return for service advice (the suspension was best described as a
project!), which got less necessary as things got fixed and he learned
how to look after it.



A Z28 is real fun to drive.

It is when it's properly maintained.
Initially, it was almost unbeatable in a straight line and undrivable
anywhere else! And even maintaining that straight line was
challenging, with poor tracking and all the suspension joints loose
giving bump-steering, torque steering, and all the other ills that
afflict vehicles on which maintenance has been neglected over a long
period - particularly powerful high performance ones.
By my last visit, it was a pleasure to drive.
By then, almost every joint and pivot in the suspension and steering
had been replaced and fully re-aligned.



That is a problem with many American passenger cars. Stuff does not
last. Very different with many pickup trucks which seem to last forever.

Bicycles have similar problems :-)


When you can get a drivers permit at so young an age and so easily as
in all the states I know about, ....



It's changing. The recent generation is know for a serious lack of
interest in obtaining a driver's license. They are happy in their little
virtual cyber world. Sad.

Maybe - but if their lack of interest in travel leads to fewer of them
gaining driving permits, they are more likely to cycle when they do
need to travel, particularly for local trips.



Not at all. They generally do not even own a bicycle and don't want one.
They simply do not travel. Until some day ... oh dang ... they can't get
a job.

Many of them look like a blimp by the time they are past 20.


... nearly all types of business have
drive through facilities, and they even build big parking lots at
schools, driving to school becomes a status thing (and the first
personal and private space that most teenagers enjoy!), people stop
using anything else, and it's hard to get them back into the habit.


The topper and this was in the early 80's: We returned a long term
rental car. The rental place's owner was completely stunned when we
presented the invoice for changing oil and air filter. We obviously were
the first to think of such stuff and he profoundly thanked us, then
handed us a check. The place had no cash but he sad the bank is right
across the street. However, drive-through only. We came back "Hey, can
we have that car for another couple hundred yards and five minutes to
cash the check?" ... of course we could. It was weird.


LMAO - that's a classic example of how non-motorists are marginalised
when "everyone drives".


Yup :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #39  
Old December 21st 16, 11:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Age and Heart Rates

On 2016-12-21 14:07, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Tue, 20 Dec 2016
13:39:12 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-19 18:35, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Sat, 17 Dec 2016
14:22:20 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-17 14:05, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Fri, 16 Dec 2016
13:51:14 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:

[...]

... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

The furthest I've commuted was a daily trip of 21 miles each way, but
I know of one cyclist who commuted about double that for several
years, from Dunstable to central London.


We hired away a UK engineer, a very skinny guy. He had a commute
somewhere north of 30mi, also near London. This guy rode a bike every
day even in the driving rain. When he and his family arrived here in the
US he no longer rode. Considering the absence of bike facilities this
was fully understandable back then since that also caused me to stop riding.

Now that bike infrastructure is gradually being put in people start
riding bikes. Including myself. I guess for the auto industry that is
not a good thing because my yearly car mileage is down to 1200mi. 4000mi
on the bikes.

Almost none of that commute from Dunstable has any dedicated cycling
infrastructure - it was all on roads with speed limits outside towns
and villages of either 60 or 70mph.
My own former 21 mile commute had precisely zero dedicated cycling
infrastructure, and was almost all on single carriageway roads with 1
lane each way and a 60mph speed limit, but varying lane widths (some
easily adequate for a pair of tractor trailers to pass without
slowing, others which required one of them to pull over for anything
bigger than a Fiat 500 - or more likely, force the oncoming car to
pull over!).

Your problem is that you have the cart ahead of the horse.



No, this is the way the vast majority of people here think and for good
reasons.

They may think that way, but the reasoning is faulty.



It is not.


When there are enough cyclists, there are also enough of them to be a
significant voting block, and cycling infrastructure gets funded,
particularly as it's seen as a way to speed the flow of motor traffic
by getting all those pesky cyclists (for whom the roads were
originally sealed and who use the roads by right) out of the way of
the motorists (who only use the roads by permit and under strict
conditions).


In this day and age it only works if the planning guys take a leap of
faith and build it. Like they did in Folsom, with resounding success.
Same in Manhattan, and Portland, and ...

Stevenage, and Milton Keynes, and Telford, and Basingstoke - none of
which had 1/10th the cycling levels of Oxford, never mind Cambridge,
neither of which had any dedicated cycling infrastructure at all.

Where on earth do you think that "leap of faith" came from, if it
wasn't demand?



From lots of examples where demand was not being voiced. One example of
many is the city of Folsom. They just built the bike infrastructure.
They were smart.


Magical thinking is not rational, and city planners who attempt to
waste money by building facilities (never mind the constant
maintenance of such facilities while waiting for the users to actually
arrive and start reporting things like vegetation overgrowth, cracked
surfacing, etc.) where they can't show a demand find themselves
looking for other employment. The maintenance issue is a very real
one - if facilities aren't used, they DO disappear through things like
encroachment of vegetation, become crime ridden places where litter
and even large-scale duping takes place, drug users hang out to get
stoned/high and dealers congregate.



Example: The El Dorado Trail which I use a lot. Maintained completely by
volunteers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHU4zg_V3LY

Now that traffic picks up in some areas they are paving another long
section. I am not in favor of that because the money could be better
used to a commuter bike path in the busier western parts.


You need an existing pent-up demand to make sure that facilities start
being used from day one, or they very quickly become places where even
those who might want to use them (at least for their intended purpose)
daren't!

As long as there are very few cyclists, you don't get any pressure
from either the motorists (who perceive, usually wrongly, delays from
having to wait to pass cyclists - it's only less time waiting in the
next queue of motor traffic, after all) or from the timid or less
capable road cyclists, who don't know how to ride in motor traffic
safely (or those who worry on their behalf, regardless of real danger,
just because of perceived danger based on their own competence level
instead of that of the rider or that of the overwhelming majority of
motorists).


Smart cyclists know of the real danger. They know how to ride correctly
and as the law demands. It does demand AFRAP here unless taking the lane
is allowed.


Which it is in every example that has been quoted in this group -
sometimes explicitly, sometimes just by use of the word "practicable".
What you need to learn is the difference between practicable and
possible.



The law says so.


It may be possible to share a 13' lane with an 11'6" semi, as long as
you are prepared to overhang the road edge and duck as the door mirror
skims your head, but it is certainly not practicable, which many
states seem to directly address in the legislation as an example case
of where it is not practicable.
Others seem to make the assumption (apparently wrongly) that people
are intelligent enough to figure that out for themselves.

Example: I was riding a road like the one you described above every
week, a "utility ride". There is one narrow bridge where I always took
the lane. Until one fine day when a guy gunned it, passed me, realized
opposing traffic and almost pushed me over the railing of that bridge.
Since that day I use the car unless a bush road is passable via MTB (it
floods a lot and I have to show up non-muddy). It's safer.


What action did you take against the dangerous driver?
Let me guess - none.



Has it ever occurred to you that someone struggling to avoid a crash
cannot at the same time keep a 2nd pair of eyes on a license plate
because humans only have one pair? Besides, as most of the people here
know the police will do ... nothing.


Did you even make any obvious signal that it was unsafe for him to
pass you?



Like what? A fist in the air, with a loudly screamed expletive? Or throw
a ballpeen hammer?


... If so, could he even see it past your daytime driver
blinding lights?



If you had read carefully you'd know that he saw me full well. Then he
blew a mental gaskets because he was inconvenienced and floored it.


Countless other examples. Some ended fatally for the cyclists, hit from
behind at high speed. Sticking the head into the sand and hoping it's
not going to happen to you might work. Or it might not. For those of us
who have to provide for families it's not just about our lives.


Yeah - becoming a stroke victim or diabetic helps your family far more
than staying fit and healthy - NOT!
It's actually far more likely (between 12 and 30 times more, according
to which to studies you accept, although they all agree that it's
highly significant) that you will suffer that or a similar fate (one
causing death or permanent disability) through lack of exercise than
from a cycling injury. Cycling (even on roads!) is that many times
safer than not doing so.
Just check on life insurance rates - do you think that the companies
just make them up on a whim? There is a whole profession (actuaries)
that is dedicated to quantifying those risks, and insurance companies
depend on the accuracy of their data for their very survival. It's
far less expensive to insure your life if you are fit and exercising
regularly than if you are an obese and diabetic couch-potato, and
cycling related physical trauma is so far down their radar that they
don't generally even ask about utility cycling (although I'm sure
they'd be interested in your constant string of near-death
experiences).
If the danger was really as bad in your area as you suggest, it would
stand out in statistical studies and actuarial data as a glaring
anomaly, yet somehow it doesn't.
Except in your head, of course.


Read the Sacramento Bee, then you know.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #40  
Old December 23rd 16, 09:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Age and Heart Rates

On 2016-12-23 10:24, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Wed, 21 Dec 2016
14:19:25 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-21 13:11, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Tue, 20 Dec 2016
13:27:04 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-19 18:59, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Mon, 19 Dec 2016
13:57:12 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-17 21:12, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/17/2016 5:22 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-17 14:05, Phil Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Fri, 16 Dec 2016
13:51:14 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2016-12-16 09:50, wrote:

[...]

... They have the luxury of getting to work
rapidly and then sitting at a desk for the rest of the day. And if
you eat some protein you can limit the muscle damage.

Where I live is different. If I get a job in the area I want I could
be commuting 50 km each way. And because of the traffic I could even
be faster counting both the stop and go traffic and the more direct
path I could take as a bicyclist.


That's over 30mi each way. A lot. Not sure if I'd do that but if not
many hills probably yes.

The furthest I've commuted was a daily trip of 21 miles each way, but
I know of one cyclist who commuted about double that for several
years, from Dunstable to central London.


We hired away a UK engineer, a very skinny guy. He had a commute
somewhere north of 30mi, also near London. This guy rode a bike every
day even in the driving rain. When he and his family arrived here in the
US he no longer rode. Considering the absence of bike facilities this
was fully understandable back then since that also caused me to stop
riding.

When did you hire this guy? Where, exactly, did he ride in Britain?


In 1998. I forgot the exact route.

There weren't ANY in the UK that long in 1998.
Zero, none, zilch, that were even half that long!


As I have said before side roads, residential roads and agricultural
roads with little vehicle traffic are quite acceptable in lieu of bike
paths. Smart cyclists tend to find those.

Anywhere which would be regarded in the UK as "near London" would
include negotiating barriers like major trunk roads and motorways,
which only provide crossings for other major roads, forcing you to use
them.
The same is true for natural barriers like rivers, of course.



Same here. Crossing them is not a problem. Riding on them for more than
a few miles is a problem for most people. Or at least so uncomfortable
that they won't do it.

I think you missed the point - crossing them is only possible on other
major roads - side roads, agricultural roads and residential roads,
even if they existed before the barrier was created, are almost always
severed by it, so you have to move onto the network of major roads
just to be able to cross, and once on that network, it's very
difficult to move back onto minor roads, because the major roads have
limited junctions.



We have a nice tool for that in the old colony: The traffic light :-)

When going into the valley there is one major traffic artery where the
bike path doesn't have the usual grade separation. I stopp, press a
little button, 10 seconds later all traffic is stopped and I step on the
pedals again.

On the other roads in Folsom I can just barrel through regardless of
traffic. Either under the road or on a cycle path bridge above. One even
has both to pick from, beats me why. This one tops them all:

http://www.traillink.com/trail-photo...rail.aspx#leaf


[...]


Now that bike infrastructure is gradually being put in people start
riding bikes. Including myself. I guess for the auto industry that is
not a good thing because my yearly car mileage is down to 1200mi. 4000mi
on the bikes.

Somehow, I don't think General Motors is going to notice. See
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/10315

"2016 experienced the largest annual increase in VMT since tracking
began in 1971."


I meant my contribution to the auto industry. It is quite possible that
our current vehicles which are both around 20 years old might live many
more decades. Like the 1954 pickup truck my MTB buddy has.

Naturally, the vast majority of our neighbors does not live like that
and rides just about every mile inside a car. Sometimes even if it's
just a few hundred yards.

I noticed that in the US, and it mostly seemed to be pure habit.


I'd use a stronger expression: Laziness.

The problem with using that word is that it's an instant turn-off for
anyone you are hoping to convert.
You don't win converts by antagonising them.



What makes you think that I use that in front of people I want to convince?


The problem is that once you use it at all, it gets back to them as a
commonly held opinion among cyclists.



Again, I _never_ use that in front of people I want to convince to
cycle. Sometimes laziness comes up but it's them bringing it up. It is
good to be on their minds so they get off the couch because they don't
want to be "those people".


In this NG there will hardly be any lazy people since nearly all are
already experienced cyclists. Doctors discuss a dire prognosis very
openly among colleagues but, of course, not necessarily in front of a
sensitive patient.


The company I used to work for with an office in Tulsa used to send me
out a few times a year, and people in the building where the office
was located were alarmed at my walking to work - from the hotel NEXT
DOOR! Utterly ridiculous, as I actually traveled further vertically
after entering the building than I did horizontally to reach it - so
much so, that I used the stairs some of the time, just for the
exercise. If I'd had a bicycle out there, I'd have used it for going
out in the evenings, but it was easier to get hold of a car (the
office manager out there used to lend me her son's z28 Camaro, in
return for service advice (the suspension was best described as a
project!), which got less necessary as things got fixed and he learned
how to look after it.


A Z28 is real fun to drive.

It is when it's properly maintained.
Initially, it was almost unbeatable in a straight line and undrivable
anywhere else! And even maintaining that straight line was
challenging, with poor tracking and all the suspension joints loose
giving bump-steering, torque steering, and all the other ills that
afflict vehicles on which maintenance has been neglected over a long
period - particularly powerful high performance ones.
By my last visit, it was a pleasure to drive.
By then, almost every joint and pivot in the suspension and steering
had been replaced and fully re-aligned.



That is a problem with many American passenger cars. Stuff does not
last. Very different with many pickup trucks which seem to last forever.

Bicycles have similar problems :-)


But are much cheaper and easier to work on.



Not at all. The only thing I ever did to my SUV was changing the oil,
battery and (once) the tires. The timing belts were also changed once
but only because the car is now 20 years old and I got concerned. They
were still fine.

The bicycles, however, need weekly maintenance or stuff will quickly go
south. The difference in maintenance effort per mile between car and
bicycles vastly exceeds 1:10.


When you can get a drivers permit at so young an age and so easily as
in all the states I know about, ....


It's changing. The recent generation is know for a serious lack of
interest in obtaining a driver's license. They are happy in their little
virtual cyber world. Sad.

Maybe - but if their lack of interest in travel leads to fewer of them
gaining driving permits, they are more likely to cycle when they do
need to travel, particularly for local trips.



Not at all. They generally do not even own a bicycle and don't want one.
They simply do not travel. Until some day ... oh dang ... they can't get
a job.

Many of them look like a blimp by the time they are past 20.

That's where policies like promoting active travel to schools help.
Although we do have that problem here, it is not as prevalent as
there, because the UK is a pretty compact place generally, and as long
as you don't live a long way out in the county, the chances are you
will be in cycle commuting range of some kind of job, even if you are
unfit.



Here they often don't even have bike racks at school. Our local high
school (Ponderosa High, Cameron Park, CA) can only be reached by narrow
2-lane fast roads. Nobody in their right mind cycles there regularly.



... nearly all types of business have
drive through facilities, and they even build big parking lots at
schools, driving to school becomes a status thing (and the first
personal and private space that most teenagers enjoy!), people stop
using anything else, and it's hard to get them back into the habit.


The topper and this was in the early 80's: We returned a long term
rental car. The rental place's owner was completely stunned when we
presented the invoice for changing oil and air filter. We obviously were
the first to think of such stuff and he profoundly thanked us, then
handed us a check. The place had no cash but he sad the bank is right
across the street. However, drive-through only. We came back "Hey, can
we have that car for another couple hundred yards and five minutes to
cash the check?" ... of course we could. It was weird.

LMAO - that's a classic example of how non-motorists are marginalised
when "everyone drives".


Yup :-(


And it's something we have far less of in the UK - drive through
facilities are almost entirely at fast-food outlets.


That's bad enough. Last time I frequented a fast food place was some
time in the previous century and only because I got badgered into it by
youngsters.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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