Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On 2018-11-27 16:59, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:12:10 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-27 15:54, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:07:10 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-26 19:43, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 14:24:45 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

[...]

Speaking of hacking cassettes. I have one bicycle wheel that has a
9-speed hacked cassette with a corncob cluster 11 to 19 teeth being
shifted with friction downtube shifters which is good because one of
the cogs I could not find on my spare 9 speed cassettes was take from
and 8 speed cassette. I have no problems shifting to or from any of
those cogs. It's a fun bike to ride on gently rolling hills.

On my long distance road bike I have the Campagnolo Veloce 30 - 42 -
52 triple crank and find that 30 teeth ring useful at times in strong
headwinds, steep hills or if I'm really tired.

However, I think some people like Joerg simply enjoy making something
work with something it wasn't designed to work with.


Oh yeah. Sometimes you get a little bonus in the wake. For example, this
new cassette came with 11T and 13T as smallest cogs. Because of its
construction these had to stay in unless I'd do a more serious hack on
the big grinder. Turns out that 52/11 acts like an overdrive in a car
and if the wind picks up a wee bit I can shift to 13T. Currently I am
missing 15T so I accelerate for the last bit on the 18T, then shift to
the 13T for a "mild overdrive". It suits me well because I am not used
to spinning.


Interesting. A 52/11 with a 23mm tire at a moderate 90 RPM crank speed
is about 54 KPH or 33 MPH. I read that TdF level riders will ride a 36
K time trial in the 29 - 31 MPH range.


Then there are people who prefer not to ride longer distance at 90rpm. I
often ride at 20mph and the resulting lower rpm feels just right.

While "spinning" initially seems difficult it really isn't and it is
the most efficient method of powering a bicycle.
(horse) Power = RPM x Force


I am just not used to it and spent most of my cycling life in sort of an
"overdrive". Old dog, new tricks? Nah ...

Also, the taller a person is the less he or she generally likes high rpm.


(and, yes I know there is a constant used to convert to some specified
output value :-)


My legs can pump all the output I want from them. Eventually I just run
out of breath, that's the limiter. That can be trained up as well but I
don't have any Tour de France ambitions.

Maybe so, but after all when riding a bicycle a tall person's feet go
up and down the same distance as a short persons ( crank arm length X
2) :-)


Still, taller people often run lower rpm. Also, they tend to prefer the
longer crank versions.


But it isn't usually the legs that give up, at least not on the flat,
it is the lungs and spinning, as it takes less effort from the body
and requires less oxygen so one can spin at a higher bike speed for
longer periods.


Maybe but I am just not used to it. I know that mashing is bad also for
the knee joints. I guess that habit formed because back in the days you
could only get corncob cassettes for UG. At least that's how it was at
the LBS in Europe and that always meant mashing when riding in places
such as Eastern Belgium where I rode a lot.


The problem, at least my problem, with spinning is that without a
meter to tell you how fast you are pedaling it is pretty hard to
maintain a constant spin rate. One could, I suppose, calculate the
bike speed in some gear at some pedal rate and then use the
speedometer to try and maintain a constant pedal rate. Or do what I
did and convert a speedometer to a rev meter.


Or go all out and have one speedometer with a spoke sensor and a 2nd one
mounted next to it with a sensor near the inner chain ring. With a
cheap set such as the Bell 100 that should cost less than $30 for both.

My first smart phone is on the way and I am wondering whether that could
be pressed into such service, with one Bluetooth transmitter at the
spokes and another near the inner chain ring. Then maybe run Strava on
top of that. Of course, battery runtime is a concern for all-day rides
but in my case I could tie it into the large on-board lighting battery
with a USB converter. Or press a dynamo into service.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-11-27 17:02, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:14:34 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-27 15:56, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:16:19 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-26 19:29, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 12:28:09 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-25 17:56, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


I can't get a HG cassette cog to fit on a HG freehub body if I flip
the cog. The notches are not symmetrical.


After a little dance with a Dremel you can.

A new 10 speed free hub is less then $20. Spreading the rear fork is a
trivial task, re dishing a wheel, that is reasonably true, is simple
...


In my case, 10-speed with friction shifters would not be that great. Of
course, I could buy a new bike ...

Interesting. One of my bikes has a ten speed cassette and I shift it
with a friction down tube shifter with no problems.


Sure, I can do that as well. It's just not very comfortable without
indexing, especially like yesterday where I rode along a busy road with
lots of noise, in the dark. So you could be going miles with a slightly
out of trim derailer and not hear it. Not healthy for the chain. That
chance is lower the wider the chain is.

Interesting comment. I ride in what is usually rated as the 2nd most
chaotic traffic in the world with a 10 speed cassette and down tube
friction shifters with no problems whatsoever.


Maybe you have musical ears or fingers. I don't. Also, at night one
can't look through between the legs to see if it's nicely lined up. In
the olden days when everyone had friction shifters I also saw lots of
riders tooling along with the chain clearly askew, sometimes making an
awful noise. They just didn't care.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 11/27/2018 10:19 PM, James wrote:
On 28/11/18 12:28 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/27/2018 7:26 PM, Joerg wrote:

You can get up to impressive speeds with 52/11 downhill, pedaling
full blast. On Sunday I couldn't resist but throttled back when the
front end started a hard shimmy.

Got numbers?

As has been pointed out before, 52-11 is about 127 gear inches, or 10
meters development. That's about 25% higher than almost any cyclists
really need, or can really use.

It would give 30 mph at just 80 rpm if you could spin it. But on level
ground, the air resistance is so great you almost certainly can't
produce enough power to maintain that speed for more than 15 seconds
at a time. And on any downhill where it might otherwise be useful,
you'll gain more speed by getting in a tight aero tuck and coasting.

In other words, reducing your drag coefficient is more beneficial than
pedaling.



In a race I remember wishing for an 11 when the bunch was rolling turns
on a long slight down hill with a stiff tail wind at over 70km/h.

That's about 20m/s and ~2 revs per second or 120rpm with a 53/12 (9.28m).

These days I have a 53/11 biggest gear, and I have used it for some fast
(for me) sprints.

But generally on steep descents, I prefer to pedal up to about 80km/h,
then form an aero tuck and dive down the hill even faster.

I agree that in some situations involving a close pack of riders or a
few seconds of unusually high speed sprinting, a super-high gear can be
useful. But that has very little to do with anyone's non-competition
riding, and nothing at all to do with Joerg's riding.

Ultra high gears on a non-racing bike are like wing spoilers on an
economy car.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 28/11/2018 10:57 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-27 16:59, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 16:12:10 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-27 15:54, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:07:10 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-26 19:43, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 14:24:45 -0800, Joerg

wrote:

[...]

Speaking of hacking cassettes. I have one bicycle wheel that has a
9-speed hacked cassette with a corncob cluster 11 to 19Â* teeth
being
shifted with friction downtube shifters which is good because
one of
the cogs I could not find on my spare 9 speed cassettes was take
from
and 8 speed cassette. I have no problems shifting to or from any of
those cogs. It's a fun bike to ride on gently rolling hills.

On my long distance road bike I have the Campagnolo Veloce 30 -
42 -
52 triple crank and find that 30 teeth ring useful at times in
strong
headwinds, steep hills or if I'm really tired.

However, I think some people like Joerg simply enjoy making
something
work with something it wasn't designed to work with.


Oh yeah. Sometimes you get a little bonus in the wake. For
example, this
new cassette came with 11T and 13T as smallest cogs. Because of its
construction these had to stay in unless I'd do a more serious
hack on
the big grinder. Turns out that 52/11 acts like an overdrive in a
car
and if the wind picks up a wee bit I can shift to 13T. Currently
I am
missing 15T so I accelerate for the last bit on the 18T, then
shift to
the 13T for a "mild overdrive". It suits me well because I am not
used
to spinning.


Interesting. A 52/11 with a 23mm tire at a moderate 90 RPM crank
speed
is about 54 KPH or 33 MPH. I read that TdF level riders will ride
a 36
K time trial in the 29 - 31 MPH range.


Then there are people who prefer not to ride longer distance at
90rpm. I
often ride at 20mph and the resulting lower rpm feels just right.

While "spinning" initially seems difficult it really isn't and it is
the most efficient method of powering a bicycle.
(horse) Power = RPM x Force


I am just not used to it and spent most of my cycling life in sort of an
"overdrive". Old dog, new tricks? Nah ...

Also, the taller a person is the less he or she generally likes high
rpm.


(and, yes I know there is a constant used to convert to some specified
output value :-)


My legs can pump all the output I want from them. Eventually I just run
out of breath, that's the limiter. That can be trained up as well but I
don't have any Tour de France ambitions.

Maybe so, but after all when riding a bicycle a tall person's feet go
up and down the same distance as a short persons ( crank arm length X
2) :-)


Still, taller people often run lower rpm. Also, they tend to prefer the
longer crank versions.


But it isn't usually the legs that give up, at least not on the flat,
it is the lungs and spinning, as it takes less effort from the body
and requires less oxygen so one can spin at a higher bike speed for
longer periods.


Maybe but I am just not used to it. I know that mashing is bad also for
the knee joints. I guess that habit formed because back in the days you
could only get corncob cassettes for UG. At least that's how it was at
the LBS in Europe and that always meant mashing when riding in places
such as Eastern Belgium where I rode a lot.


The problem, at least my problem, with spinning is that without a
meter to tell you how fast you are pedaling it is pretty hard to
maintain a constant spin rate. One could, I suppose, calculate the
bike speed in some gear at some pedal rate and then use the
speedometer to try and maintain a constant pedal rate. Or do what I
did and convert a speedometer to a rev meter.


Or go all out and have one speedometer with a spoke sensor and a 2nd one
mounted next to it with a sensor near the inner chain ring. With a
cheap set such as the Bell 100 that should cost less than $30 for both.


Or just do what most people do and buy a bike computer with speed and
cadence. Cateye's aren't that expensive. Even a wireless one is
probably 70 bucks CA.

My first smart phone is on the way and I am wondering whether that could
be pressed into such service, with one Bluetooth transmitter at the
spokes and another near the inner chain ring. Then maybe run Strava on
top of that. Of course, battery runtime is a concern for all-day rides
but in my case I could tie it into the large on-board lighting battery
with a USB converter. Or press a dynamo into service.


I think WAHOO makes bluetooth speed and cadence sensors. The other
option is to get the ant+ versions and then an ant+ dongle for your phone.

On 11/28/2018 9:00 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/27/2018 10:01 PM, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 20:04:28 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/27/2018 7:56 PM, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 20:31:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/27/2018 6:54 PM, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:07:10 -0800, Joerg

wrote:

On 2018-11-26 19:43, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 14:24:45 -0800, Joerg

wrote:

[...]

Speaking of hacking cassettes. I have one bicycle wheel that
has a
9-speed hacked cassette with a corncob cluster 11 to 19Â* teeth
being
shifted with friction downtube shifters which is good because
one of
the cogs I could not find on my spare 9 speed cassettes was
take from
and 8 speed cassette. I have no problems shifting to or from
any of
those cogs. It's a fun bike to ride on gently rolling hills.

On my long distance road bike I have the Campagnolo Veloce 30
- 42 -
52 triple crank and find that 30 teeth ring useful at times in
strong
headwinds, steep hills or if I'm really tired.

However, I think some people like Joerg simply enjoy making
something
work with something it wasn't designed to work with.


Oh yeah. Sometimes you get a little bonus in the wake. For
example, this
new cassette came with 11T and 13T as smallest cogs. Because of
its
construction these had to stay in unless I'd do a more serious
hack on
the big grinder. Turns out that 52/11 acts like an overdrive in
a car
and if the wind picks up a wee bit I can shift to 13T.
Currently I am
missing 15T so I accelerate for the last bit on the 18T, then
shift to
the 13T for a "mild overdrive". It suits me well because I am
not used
to spinning.


Interesting. A 52/11 with a 23mm tire at a moderate 90 RPM crank
speed
is about 54 KPH or 33 MPH. I read that TdF level riders will
ride a 36
K time trial in the 29 - 31 MPH range.


Then there are people who prefer not to ride longer distance at
90rpm. I
often ride at 20mph and the resulting lower rpm feels just right.

While "spinning" initially seems difficult it really isn't and it is
the most efficient method of powering a bicycle.
(horse) Power = RPM x Force

Perhaps I shouldn't be pedantic, but it's really RPM x Torque.
Alternately, it's velocity x Force.Â* (Yes, with appropriate conversion
factors.)

Well yes, or many other formula :-) I was trying to simplify things by
talking about RPM, i.e. velocity, and force on the pedals, i.e.
torque.

Somewhat similar to Watt's original calculation with the horse and the
mill wheel. :-)


No matter what gear, we cannot raise 33,000lb one foot in
one minute.

You are right. But the calculation is Ft. Lbs. and minutes and a
trained athlete can generate as much as 3.5 H.P. (Â* Usain Bolt ) for
very short periods of time.


To get such high output from a human one needs to consider very short
duration:

https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...n-power.58140/

Good posts there by Ivan Seeking.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/28/2018 3:52 AM, James wrote:
On 28/11/18 3:27 pm, Ralph Barone wrote:


1 hp = 746 W, which is within the range of a track cyclist.

There are plenty of road cyclists who can produce 500W for 5 minutes,
and certainly 746 W for shorter times.

But I think Andrew is right with his statement "No matter what gear, we
cannot raise 33,000lb one foot in one minute."

To raise 33,000 pounds you'd need extreme gear reduction, and with that
gear reduction would come losses in efficiency. I think the resulting
internal friction would make Andrew's specific task impossible.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:39:36 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 10:20:23 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-27 08:40, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 7:14:23 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-27 07:04, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 2:24:47 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-26 14:01, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 4:26:53 PM UTC-5, duane
wrote: Snipped

Typically if I start off on a decent lenght ride, I like to
have a reasonable expectation of getting back without
having to try to rebuild the bike on the side of the road.
To hack my cassette to save one cog makes no sense to me.
Frugality is a good thing for the planet and all but this
is sounding close to OCD.

I have a couple of bicycle wheels that still have Uniglide
Cassette bodies on them. A few years ago I came across a
bicycle shop that was a bit outside of a city in our area.
that shop HAD a number of brand new Uniglide 7 speed
cassettes at $5.00 per cassette. I said HAD because I bough
every one they had. I even have a couple of NOS Uniglide
cassette bodies.


Out of curiosity, what are UG cassette bodies? The UG cassettes
I had, even before a hack, consisted only of cogs, spacers and
three screws that held it all together (but which weren't
really needed and removed by me).


... I'm set for the rest of my years and won't need to hack
apart and Dremel Hyperglide cassettes to replace those
Uniglide cogs once they wear out on both sides. If I get to
the point where I need lower gears I'll just swap out the
bottom bracket spindle 0r cartridge and add a triple
chainring crankset. I have a number of those on hand waiting
for that day.


That'll be very hard on the chain and cogs if you ride a lot of
hills. Depends on rider weight and load, of course.


Speaking of hacking cassettes. I have one bicycle wheel that
has a 9-speed hacked cassette with a corncob cluster 11 to 19
teeth being shifted with friction downtube shifters which is
good because one of the cogs I could not find on my spare 9
speed cassettes was take from and 8 speed cassette. I have no
problems shifting to or from any of those cogs. It's a fun
bike to ride on gently rolling hills.

On my long distance road bike I have the Campagnolo Veloce 30
- 42 - 52 triple crank and find that 30 teeth ring useful at
times in strong headwinds, steep hills or if I'm really
tired.

However, I think some people like Joerg simply enjoy making
something work with something it wasn't designed to work
with.


Oh yeah. Sometimes you get a little bonus in the wake. For
example, this new cassette came with 11T and 13T as smallest
cogs. Because of its construction these had to stay in unless
I'd do a more serious hack on the big grinder. Turns out that
52/11 acts like an overdrive in a car and if the wind picks up
a wee bit I can shift to 13T. Currently I am missing 15T so I
accelerate for the last bit on the 18T, then shift to the 13T
for a "mild overdrive". It suits me well because I am not used
to spinning.

So, are your three lowest cogs 11, 13, 18? Is there nothing
between 13 and 18?


Unfortunately not. I'll see how that fares this week. If I really
want that 15T I'll probably take out the 28T instead. The bike only
supports 7-speed unless I'd go to a smaller chain. With friction
shifters a smaller chain and more cogs would not be fun.


https://www.bikenashbar.com/cycling/...-expert-bz-rfe Wait
for the bankruptcy to ramp-up, and the price will drop some more --
or get the same bike at the door-closing sale at your nearest
Performance. Steel, 9 reasonable speeds, tire clearance, discs, etc.,
etc. All the things you want for your gnarly road riding in the
wilds of Cameron Park. The massive Trump tax break should more than
fund that bike, or at least the bar tape.


That is a good deal and with hydraulic brakes no less. Bankruptcy at
Nashbar? Please tell us you were kidding. Pricepoint is already gone
which hurt (no bankruptcy, they just shut down) and now another?

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/indu...1#.W_3M49tKiUk

Relatively old news -- and it is consolidated with the bankruptcies filed by the parent company, ASI, and Performance. I looked at the docket (NC Middle District). Yikes. Wells Fargo filed a proof of claim for $37M.

Nashbar has filed a motion to approve the sale of substantially all its assets, which is kind of an end-around plan approval and probably means there is someone in the wings waiting to buy. Chapter 11 is fascinating -- full of tricks and way beyond my expertise.

-- Jay Beattie.

Thanks for that info Jay.

On 11/28/2018 9:57 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 5:32:52 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/27/2018 7:59 PM, John B. slocomb wrote:

The problem, at least my problem, with spinning is that without a
meter to tell you how fast you are pedaling it is pretty hard to
maintain a constant spin rate. One could, I suppose, calculate the
bike speed in some gear at some pedal rate and then use the
speedometer to try and maintain a constant pedal rate. Or do what I
did and convert a speedometer to a rev meter.

There are cyclometers available with cadence displays. An extra switch &
magnet set are fitted to the cranks. We've got one on our tandem.

In the modern world, cadence data is produced by an accelerometer on your crank and sent to your sunglasses wirelessly via Bluetooth or ANT -- along with data from your heart rate monitor, orbiting satellite, passing cyclists and the Wall Street Journal. https://everysight.com/ Perfect gift for the holiday season!

My son just gave me a Stages head unit, but I have yet to put it on my bike. I ride with other people who have computers and prefer the social aspect and surprise of learning distance/time/elevation at the end of the ride. It is usually depressing -- "we only went 32.6 miles?"

Speaking of the modern era, I did not see anyone exiting my building last night who was not staring at a phone. I have a new rule of relegation: if you are in an elevator staring at your phone, and the door opens, I am getting out before you -- whether you are man, woman or child. Same goes with getting on.

From the Raptor advertisement web page: "Always Connected - Raptor
connects to your smartphone via Bluetooth so you’re always on top of
emails, texts, schedules, and more. No need to stop to check your phone
– it’s all right there."

Oh joy. And I also get numbers in my field of vision everywhere I look?
Thank God I won't have to bother about appreciating that nice view, or
spotting that soaring hawk. And it will be nice to have something to
distract and amuse me while I'm riding in crowded traffic. Gosh, sign me up!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2018-11-28 08:16, Duane wrote:
On 28/11/2018 10:57 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-27 16:59, John B. slocomb wrote:

[...]


The problem, at least my problem, with spinning is that without a
meter to tell you how fast you are pedaling it is pretty hard to
maintain a constant spin rate. One could, I suppose, calculate the
bike speed in some gear at some pedal rate and then use the
speedometer to try and maintain a constant pedal rate. Or do what I
did and convert a speedometer to a rev meter.


Or go all out and have one speedometer with a spoke sensor and a 2nd
one mounted next to it with a sensor near the inner chain ring. With a
cheap set such as the Bell 100 that should cost less than $30 for both.


Or just do what most people do and buy a bike computer with speed and
cadence. Cateye's aren't that expensive. Even a wireless one is
probably 70 bucks CA.


70 bucks buys me the ingredients for brewing a 10 gallon batch of IPA :-)

I am not very interested in cadence data, others might be. While I am
trying to spin more at least under heavy load (one reason for this
cassette hack) I don't care much about it on the longhaul routes in the
valley. That's where I'll likely use the new "overdrives" a lot.


My first smart phone is on the way and I am wondering whether that
could be pressed into such service, with one Bluetooth transmitter at
the spokes and another near the inner chain ring. Then maybe run
Strava on top of that. Of course, battery runtime is a concern for
all-day rides but in my case I could tie it into the large on-board
lighting battery with a USB converter. Or press a dynamo into service.


I think WAHOO makes bluetooth speed and cadence sensors. The other
option is to get the ant+ versions and then an ant+ dongle for your phone.


Aha, thanks, I'll have to research that. I have copied this into the
wiki file for the new phone so I remember what to look for.

The phone would allow me to switch the same "cycling computation
machine" between MTB and road bike, it wouldn't lose mileage totals upon
battery changes and with its 5" screen I could keep more data on the
display instead of just speed and time.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 11/28/2018 10:24 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/28/2018 3:52 AM, James wrote:
On 28/11/18 3:27 pm, Ralph Barone wrote:


1 hp = 746 W, which is within the range of a track cyclist.

There are plenty of road cyclists who can produce 500W for
5 minutes, and certainly 746 W for shorter times.

But I think Andrew is right with his statement "No matter
what gear, we cannot raise 33,000lb one foot in one minute."

To raise 33,000 pounds you'd need extreme gear reduction,
and with that gear reduction would come losses in
efficiency. I think the resulting internal friction would
make Andrew's specific task impossible.


Right but that power (1HP or 746W, disregarding gearing or
mechanical losses) is way beyond your average human.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971