How does I fix these cranks?

On 2 Oct, 22:08, Doug Cimperman wrote:
On 10/2/2012 10:49 AM, Kerry Montgomery wrote:









"Doug Cimperman" wrote in message
...
On 9/29/2012 3:09 PM, Dan O wrote:

Well, as noted I am running a cheapo throwaway BB; but there's an
appeal to having core components that are both maximally durable,
serviceable, *and* provide ideal performance. *I can't afford a Rolex,
but expect my Seiko to be there for me forever.

The guy was talking about spending $100 just to get up away from the
low end. *Given that kind of inclination, I'd just go for the high-end
and be done with it.

What I meant earlier when I said that a lot of cartridge-bearing BB's were
expensive, was that I noticed that a couple (road triples) I found had
their own (also expensive) cranks, such as Dura Ace. The price of the
bottom brackets was no big deal, but the price of the necessary cranks to
fit them made them economically unattractive.

The Phil Wood is a highly regarded BB that is still made for square-taper.

,,,,,

Do you put anything on the square-tapers when assembling? Anti-sieze? A
bit of grease or oil?

This is another place I would not put teflon powder, but a bit of
something in there would help reduce the crank sticking a lot. Oil alone
would just squeeze out so anything to help would need to have a solid
content.

Doug Cimperman,
Anti-sieze.
Kerry

I figured something might be in order.

I got the parts just now. Two observations:
1,,,, Ain't no way you could get the BB seals out without ruining them.

er yeah, making them unsealed bearing would mean that the seal,
doesn't. This could be thought of as either ruining a seal or
enabling unsealed usage.

I doubt that you could even use an oiling needle stuck through inside or
outside the seals to squirt more oil in there.

Drill the barrel bracket liner, or not, it's your choice.


2,,,, I find it odd that the BB tapers only go about halfway into the
cranks, but I guess that's how it's supposed to be. I understand that
they're not gonna go ALL the way in, but still. This is a portion of
bicycles I never really looked at much though.

1/2 way isn't far enough, the taper should engage at least as far as
it is wide. Oh hold on, yoeah 1/2 way of the crank is correct but
most of the the way of the spindle taper, only 2 to 5mm may be left
between the back of the crank internal taper to the shoulders of the
spindle taper.

right read Frank K...wipe out the frame's BB threads...if an LBS is close by have the LBS chase the threads if the frame is OLD. Then use teflon tape, good teflon tape $$ and carefully wound onto the BB threads.

I may remeber that I coated the BB threads with a film of blue loctite or linseed oil then screwed the teflon covered plastic BB shell into the frame....the frame threads need coating protection on the threads and with a coating over the outside edge of BB shell and frame BB exterior surface.

the outside edges are often forgotten, deterioratiung allowing moisture to creep in and cawsing future handwringing.

depends where you live and ride thru. if ura underwater in portland then caotings are imperative less so in Tucson with dirt blowing sideway 9/10ths

yeah if no LBS for chasing threads get a pipe brush from hardware n work it on the threads until threads are shiny. If bike is steel framed, wipe paint thinner onto frame BB threads and roll brush, wipe, roll brush...

if frame is steel...I guess True's are Aluminum...remove seat post, shine light and inspect...rust would suggest disassembly, cleaning and repaint ID with Rusto.

The seat post is best lubed IMHO with a blend of aluminum never seize ir aunty seize and linseed oil...smear liberally never gets stuck anti corrosion and lube in one compound.

On 10/2/2012 4:48 PM, thirty-six wrote:
I doubt that you could even use an oiling needle stuck through inside or
outside the seals to squirt more oil in there.

Drill the barrel bracket liner, or not, it's your choice.


Mmmmm, nope. I can /do/ it, certainly. But It's looking like diminishing
returns. If the seals would pop out as easily as typical bearing seals
do, I woulda done it.


2,,,, I find it odd that the BB tapers only go about halfway into the
cranks, but I guess that's how it's supposed to be. I understand that
they're not gonna go ALL the way in, but still. This is a portion of
bicycles I never really looked at much though.

1/2 way isn't far enough, the taper should engage at least as far as
it is wide. Oh hold on, yoeah 1/2 way of the crank is correct but
most of the the way of the spindle taper, only 2 to 5mm may be left
between the back of the crank internal taper to the shoulders of the
spindle taper.


Looking closer, they go in about 2/3 of the way really.

Problem is, the BB I bought is too wide.
It works but the front der can only get about halfway to the largest
chainring before running out of travel (even with the upper stop screw
backed all the way up). -And the lower stop screw is screwed basically
all the way down to keep the chain from falling off that way.

The small chainring has about 10mm between the back edge and the
drive-side chainstay, so I will prolly try the 68x107 next. That's ~15mm
narrower than the 122 I have now, and the narrowest one they list. :|

The Shimano BB instructions say to use actual grease on both threads,
even though the non-drive side has some kind of gritty stuff already on
it that appears to be thread-locking stuff. I had some Park Polylube
around I used.

,,,,

By the by, how do the 2-piece cranks handle this issue (of different
chainline widths)? With the original 2-piece cranks on and the front
derailleur on the middle chainring, the derailleur was sitting at about
65% of its travel. Is there different front derailleur mounts with
different 'heights'? With a 2-piece crank you can't alter the overall
crank width.......

On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 06:59:25 -0500, Doug Cimperman
wrote:

On 10/2/2012 4:48 PM, thirty-six wrote:
I doubt that you could even use an oiling needle stuck through inside or
outside the seals to squirt more oil in there.

Drill the barrel bracket liner, or not, it's your choice.


Mmmmm, nope. I can /do/ it, certainly. But It's looking like diminishing
returns. If the seals would pop out as easily as typical bearing seals
do, I woulda done it.


2,,,, I find it odd that the BB tapers only go about halfway into the
cranks, but I guess that's how it's supposed to be. I understand that
they're not gonna go ALL the way in, but still. This is a portion of
bicycles I never really looked at much though.

1/2 way isn't far enough, the taper should engage at least as far as
it is wide. Oh hold on, yoeah 1/2 way of the crank is correct but
most of the the way of the spindle taper, only 2 to 5mm may be left
between the back of the crank internal taper to the shoulders of the
spindle taper.


Looking closer, they go in about 2/3 of the way really.

Problem is, the BB I bought is too wide.
It works but the front der can only get about halfway to the largest
chainring before running out of travel (even with the upper stop screw
backed all the way up). -And the lower stop screw is screwed basically
all the way down to keep the chain from falling off that way.

The small chainring has about 10mm between the back edge and the
drive-side chainstay, so I will prolly try the 68x107 next. That's ~15mm
narrower than the 122 I have now, and the narrowest one they list. :|

See http://sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html
for sizes, axle length, etc.

The Shimano BB instructions say to use actual grease on both threads,
even though the non-drive side has some kind of gritty stuff already on
it that appears to be thread-locking stuff. I had some Park Polylube
around I used.

,,,,

By the by, how do the 2-piece cranks handle this issue (of different
chainline widths)? With the original 2-piece cranks on and the front
derailleur on the middle chainring, the derailleur was sitting at about
65% of its travel. Is there different front derailleur mounts with
different 'heights'? With a 2-piece crank you can't alter the overall
crank width.......

The two piece sets come with spacers and depending on how wide a BB
was used on your frame you put the washers on one side or the other,
See
http://www.shimano.com.au/media/tech...9830677251.PDF
for example.
--
Cheers,
John B.

On 10/3/2012 8:27 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 06:59:25 -0500, Doug Cimperman
wrote:

On 10/2/2012 4:48 PM, thirty-six wrote:
I doubt that you could even use an oiling needle stuck through inside or
outside the seals to squirt more oil in there.

Drill the barrel bracket liner, or not, it's your choice.


Mmmmm, nope. I can /do/ it, certainly. But It's looking like diminishing
returns. If the seals would pop out as easily as typical bearing seals
do, I woulda done it.


2,,,, I find it odd that the BB tapers only go about halfway into the
cranks, but I guess that's how it's supposed to be. I understand that
they're not gonna go ALL the way in, but still. This is a portion of
bicycles I never really looked at much though.

1/2 way isn't far enough, the taper should engage at least as far as
it is wide. Oh hold on, yoeah 1/2 way of the crank is correct but
most of the the way of the spindle taper, only 2 to 5mm may be left
between the back of the crank internal taper to the shoulders of the
spindle taper.


Looking closer, they go in about 2/3 of the way really.

Problem is, the BB I bought is too wide.
It works but the front der can only get about halfway to the largest
chainring before running out of travel (even with the upper stop screw
backed all the way up). -And the lower stop screw is screwed basically
all the way down to keep the chain from falling off that way.

The small chainring has about 10mm between the back edge and the
drive-side chainstay, so I will prolly try the 68x107 next. That's ~15mm
narrower than the 122 I have now, and the narrowest one they list. :|

See http://sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html
for sizes, axle length, etc.

The Shimano BB instructions say to use actual grease on both threads,
even though the non-drive side has some kind of gritty stuff already on
it that appears to be thread-locking stuff. I had some Park Polylube
around I used.

,,,,

By the by, how do the 2-piece cranks handle this issue (of different
chainline widths)? With the original 2-piece cranks on and the front
derailleur on the middle chainring, the derailleur was sitting at about
65% of its travel. Is there different front derailleur mounts with
different 'heights'? With a 2-piece crank you can't alter the overall
crank width.......

The two piece sets come with spacers and depending on how wide a BB
was used on your frame you put the washers on one side or the other,
See
http://www.shimano.com.au/media/tech...9830677251.PDF
for example.


Mine did not seem to have any spacers. ?

Also the 2-piece bearings were apparently bad anyway. The new BB spins
way easier than the old did. The 2-piece spindle has a gunmetal "blued"
finish in dark gray, but it is bright silver where the drive-side
bearings contacted it.

And the pedal spindles (MKS rubber-block pedals) are bent too, I noticed
while turning them in. Still usable I think, but....

And now I'm wondering about the wheel bearings also. Sigh.

The torque specs (for the BB and crank bolts) were also considerably
lower than I expected. Anyone installing either by just 'turning it in
as hard as they can' is probably WAY over-torquing things.

On 10/3/2012 6:59 AM, Doug Cimperman wrote:
On 10/2/2012 4:48 PM, thirty-six wrote:
I doubt that you could even use an oiling needle stuck
through inside or
outside the seals to squirt more oil in there.

Drill the barrel bracket liner, or not, it's your choice.


Mmmmm, nope. I can /do/ it, certainly. But It's looking like
diminishing returns. If the seals would pop out as easily as
typical bearing seals do, I woulda done it.


2,,,, I find it odd that the BB tapers only go about
halfway into the
cranks, but I guess that's how it's supposed to be. I
understand that
they're not gonna go ALL the way in, but still. This is a
portion of
bicycles I never really looked at much though.

1/2 way isn't far enough, the taper should engage at least
as far as
it is wide. Oh hold on, yoeah 1/2 way of the crank is
correct but
most of the the way of the spindle taper, only 2 to 5mm
may be left
between the back of the crank internal taper to the
shoulders of the
spindle taper.


Looking closer, they go in about 2/3 of the way really.

Problem is, the BB I bought is too wide.
It works but the front der can only get about halfway to the
largest chainring before running out of travel (even with
the upper stop screw backed all the way up). -And the lower
stop screw is screwed basically all the way down to keep the
chain from falling off that way.

The small chainring has about 10mm between the back edge and
the drive-side chainstay, so I will prolly try the 68x107
next. That's ~15mm narrower than the 122 I have now, and the
narrowest one they list. :|

The Shimano BB instructions say to use actual grease on both
threads, even though the non-drive side has some kind of
gritty stuff already on it that appears to be thread-locking
stuff. I had some Park Polylube around I used.

,,,,

By the by, how do the 2-piece cranks handle this issue (of
different chainline widths)? With the original 2-piece
cranks on and the front derailleur on the middle chainring,
the derailleur was sitting at about 65% of its travel. Is
there different front derailleur mounts with different
'heights'? With a 2-piece crank you can't alter the overall
crank width.......

The rule is simple logical and short.

Thread matches frame
Spindle matches crank


Devil, details, etc:

In the case of modern frames, lack of thread (BB30, PF30
etc) matches frame. That applies to OPC as well!

In the case of square taper cranks, most all spindles in the
past 20 years are symmetric. Classic are either symmetric or
not and required asymmetry can be more or less.

The obsolete 2 degree taper is long gone but square taper
cranks, while all 3 degrees, still support two different
taper sections, viz.:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/3SPINDLE.JPG

Integrated spindle cranks inherently prevent you from buying
the wrong spindle. Chainline should be the same on road
bikes unless something is wrong or at least mismatched.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 10/3/2012 2:04 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/3/2012 6:59 AM, Doug Cimperman wrote:
On 10/2/2012 4:48 PM, thirty-six wrote:
I doubt that you could even use an oiling needle stuck
through inside or
outside the seals to squirt more oil in there.

Drill the barrel bracket liner, or not, it's your choice.


Mmmmm, nope. I can /do/ it, certainly. But It's looking like
diminishing returns. If the seals would pop out as easily as
typical bearing seals do, I woulda done it.


2,,,, I find it odd that the BB tapers only go about
halfway into the
cranks, but I guess that's how it's supposed to be. I
understand that
they're not gonna go ALL the way in, but still. This is a
portion of
bicycles I never really looked at much though.

1/2 way isn't far enough, the taper should engage at least
as far as
it is wide. Oh hold on, yoeah 1/2 way of the crank is
correct but
most of the the way of the spindle taper, only 2 to 5mm
may be left
between the back of the crank internal taper to the
shoulders of the
spindle taper.


Looking closer, they go in about 2/3 of the way really.

Problem is, the BB I bought is too wide.
It works but the front der can only get about halfway to the
largest chainring before running out of travel (even with
the upper stop screw backed all the way up). -And the lower
stop screw is screwed basically all the way down to keep the
chain from falling off that way.

The small chainring has about 10mm between the back edge and
the drive-side chainstay, so I will prolly try the 68x107
next. That's ~15mm narrower than the 122 I have now, and the
narrowest one they list. :|

The Shimano BB instructions say to use actual grease on both
threads, even though the non-drive side has some kind of
gritty stuff already on it that appears to be thread-locking
stuff. I had some Park Polylube around I used.

,,,,

By the by, how do the 2-piece cranks handle this issue (of
different chainline widths)? With the original 2-piece
cranks on and the front derailleur on the middle chainring,
the derailleur was sitting at about 65% of its travel. Is
there different front derailleur mounts with different
'heights'? With a 2-piece crank you can't alter the overall
crank width.......

The rule is simple logical and short.

Thread matches frame
Spindle matches crank


Devil, details, etc:

In the case of modern frames, lack of thread (BB30, PF30 etc) matches
frame. That applies to OPC as well!

In the case of square taper cranks, most all spindles in the past 20
years are symmetric. Classic are either symmetric or not and required
asymmetry can be more or less.

The obsolete 2 degree taper is long gone but square taper cranks, while
all 3 degrees, still support two different taper sections, viz.:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/3SPINDLE.JPG

Integrated spindle cranks inherently prevent you from buying the wrong
spindle. Chainline should be the same on road bikes unless something is
wrong or at least mismatched.


Is there a way to figure out the spindle length (other than just
measuring and estimating) if its not in the manufacturer specs?

I bought the 122.5 initially because I saw somewhere that said this was
the usual spindle length for the cranks. The Shimano page for the 2303
cranks doesn't give the suggested spindle length, it only says the BB is
the UN26....
http://bike.shimano.com.sg/publish/c...0.-type-..html

The UN26 is the Alivio-level BB; the Sheldon page gives the BB length of
most of the Alivio cranks as 110-113mm-
http://sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html

The UN55 is supposed to be a higher-quality BB that replaces the UN26,
and both come in a range of spindle lengths. The narrowest UN55 is 107mm
and the narrowest UN26 seems to be 110mm.

I ordered the 107 now because from the measurements of the 122, it
looked like the best fit.... With a 113mm-long spindle the derailleur
would still be well into the upper-half of its adjustment range, when on
the middle chainring.

On Oct 3, 12:59*pm, Doug Cimperman wrote:
On 10/2/2012 4:48 PM, thirty-six wrote:

I doubt that you could even use an oiling needle stuck through inside or
outside the seals to squirt more oil in there.

Drill the barrel bracket liner, or not, it's your choice.

Mmmmm, nope. I can /do/ it, certainly. But It's looking like diminishing
returns. If the seals would pop out as easily as typical bearing seals
do, I woulda done it.



2,,,, I find it odd that the BB tapers only go about halfway into the
cranks, but I guess that's how it's supposed to be. I understand that
they're not gonna go ALL the way in, but still. This is a portion of
bicycles I never really looked at much though.

1/2 way isn't far enough, the taper should engage at least as far as
it is wide. *Oh hold on, yoeah 1/2 way of the crank is correct but
most of the the way of the spindle taper, only 2 to 5mm may be left
between the back of the crank internal taper to the shoulders of the
spindle taper.

Looking closer, they go in about 2/3 of the way really.

Problem is, the BB I bought is too wide.
It works but the front der can only get about halfway to the largest
chainring before running out of travel (even with the upper stop screw
backed all the way up). -And the lower stop screw is screwed basically
all the way down to keep the chain from falling off that way.

The small chainring has about 10mm between the back edge and the
drive-side chainstay, so I will prolly try the 68x107 next. That's ~15mm
narrower than the 122 I have now, and the narrowest one they list. :|

The Shimano BB instructions say to use actual grease on both threads,

It's bollox, use a simple light mineral oil for threads and tapers.
Oil has the advantage that it provides a fluid medium for assembly and
will in a few minutes be squeezed out from the thread and the taper
almost completely, leaving the most stable joint when correctly
torqued.

even though the non-drive side has some kind of gritty stuff already on
it that appears to be thread-locking stuff. I had some Park Polylube
around I used.

Don't know it, but I have had a selection of stuff available and still
go for a light (mineral) oil. I got a can of "Household oil" because
it's in a dispensing can, light (in viscosity), no enhancements, cheap
and this is suitable for the purpose of taper assembly. I've not
desired any pasta or other gluten to stick them together. ;-)


,,,,

By the by, how do the 2-piece cranks handle this issue (of different
chainline widths)? With the original 2-piece cranks on and the front
derailleur on the middle chainring, the derailleur was sitting at about
65% of its travel. Is there different front derailleur mounts with
different 'heights'? With a 2-piece crank you can't alter the overall
crank width.......