Need advice on bottom bracket repair

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
"Doug Landau" wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 9:55:19 AM UTC-8, David Scheidt wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

:I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on
:the list.

My experience is that it doesn't. That's just one of the reasons no
one puts it in a can and sells it commercially. I read the original
article, a long time ago, and as I recall the testing method was about
as scientfic as drawing lots.

Commercial penetrating oils are far superior.


Coca-cola?


Apparently it contains phosphoric acid - which is also an ingredient of some
rust treatments.

The rust is chemically converted into iron phosphate - the end result bears
some resemblance to the metal equivalent of polystyrene cement.

Where did you get the idea that Coca Cola contains any sort of phosphate? Other than phosphate salts, most phosphate compounds are poisonous.

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On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:33:11 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
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On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 1:46:39 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
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On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 10:47:48 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
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On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:11:45 PM UTC-8,
Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
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...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8,
Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
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On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8,
Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all,

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear
bottom
bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop
severely.

I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left
side,
but
the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a
quarter
turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It
has
no
flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning
with
a
pin
spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it.

I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any
advice
for
me?

Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is
good.
Warming with a heat gun can help.

If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a
disc
grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle
expensive
pins.

p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you
can
easily
deal with the left one after disasssembly.

Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil
and
new
pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if
I'm
not
able to get things off with the addition of penetrating
oil
and
time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS.

At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and
give
it
a
few
strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit
at a
time
that
way.

Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after
snapping a
couple
of
spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner
for.
Quenching
the
hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just
spraying
it
on
cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup.

It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner.

Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!!

If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother
answering
it
either.

I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the
tight
spot
and
give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it
out
bit
at
a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin
spanner.
Are
you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank?

Sorry - I forgot you were that thick.

I'll draw pictures next time.

So you meant something other than what you wrote. Well that makes
sense.

Its so simple it just never occurred to me that anyone could ****
it
up -
but somehow you always seem to manage.

Then perhaps you can explain how you didn't say to hit it with a
hammer
after writing for everyone to see you suggest hitting the pin
spanner
with
a hammer? Did you mean that unless you vocalize it, that it doesn't
count?

I didn't say hit the pin spanner with a hammer - you did.

And I would have understood you better if you spoke in English instead
of
Benderthe.evilrobot doubletalk. Tell me who hits their paint job with a
hammer?

Your school days must've been lots of fun when the other kids caught up
with
you for going around making up stories.

So much fun that when I look at a cop for acting stupid they back off and
pull a gun.

That's probably a very natural reaction to
you.................................

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...
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:36:41 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:24:41 -0000, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:

"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:01:01 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:31:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann

wrote:
(...)

Yet another untested idea...

Use an induction heater on the steel cup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZEaPQinO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJElT9xK3bk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimEZKrVNO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1IBgefNDs [1]
http://www.theinductor.com
You'll need various size coils for different bolts, cups, seat
posts,
etc. There are induction heater kits on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-ZVS-Low-Voltage-Induction-Heating-Board-Module-Flyback-Heater-Brass-Coil-/282317713643
The steel cup gets hot and not so much the rest of the bicycle,
including the aluminum bottom bracket which sucks away much of the
heat. However, you can get the steel hot enough to melt the
aluminum,
so please use an IR thermometer to keep the temperatures down.
Aluminum melts at 660C.

Yikes!

Is there a problem?

An electric heat gun is safer than a blowtorch - but I think you still
have
to be a bit careful.

The heavy duty paint strippers aren't too bad, but some heat guns are
designed for lighting solid fuel cooking ranges.

The problem with external heat generators is that the heat affected
zone is rather large and will surely creep into undesirable areas,

A bigger problem is heating too small an area and causing the metal to
distort.

I'm sure that you've distorted many bottom brackets with a hair dryer.


You specialise in distorting the truth.

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Doug Landau" wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 9:55:19 AM UTC-8, David Scheidt wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

:I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on
:the list.

My experience is that it doesn't. That's just one of the reasons no
one puts it in a can and sells it commercially. I read the original
article, a long time ago, and as I recall the testing method was about
as scientfic as drawing lots.

Commercial penetrating oils are far superior.


Coca-cola?


Apparently it contains phosphoric acid - which is also an ingredient of
some
rust treatments.

The rust is chemically converted into iron phosphate - the end result
bears
some resemblance to the metal equivalent of polystyrene cement.

Where did you get the idea that Coca Cola contains any sort of phosphate?
Other than phosphate salts, most phosphate compounds are poisonous.

From the ingredients label.

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:51:53 AM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:

Yes, another "yikes!" on this. Getting beyond my skill/comfort
level...

Ted, these people have been inundating you with all of these things that they've never actually done themselves. So they are advice and not instructions. Andrew Muzi is the only professional.

Usually the reason that a bottom bracket cup with not pull out is because there was something in the threads when it was inserted. Or they used the incorrect kind of Loctite.

Since your bike is polished aluminum I assume you've been careful with it and not left it out in the weather.

If you carefully work the adjustable cup back and forth and it doesn't gradually start turning out take it to a COMPETENT bike shop. Even if you force it out eventually there's the chance that you can damage the frame's finish. A good shop will have shop quality tools that made this a whole lot less likely.

As I said before, in one case I removed the BB from the fixed side and then sawed the adjustable cup down ALMOST to the threads and then the cup would distort enough to allow it to come out. But that was an awful job and I certainly wouldn't recommend it. In another case the incorrect loctite was used in a bottom bracket on a carbon frame and it was twisted so hard that the liner broke loose from the frame and spun in the bottom impossible to remove. I'm still deciding to take that frame down to Santa Cruz so that the carbon people would forcibly remove the entire liner and repair it back to normal. I NEVER use loctite that hasn't been applied to a new bottom bracket by the manufacturer.

There is no need in English bottom brackets anyway. And the new sealed units do not walk out anyway. But tandems are a special case and I don't think you can get a sealed BB for them. The spindle length on a tandem is peculiar to the specific bike.

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 12:23:50 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Doug Landau" wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 9:55:19 AM UTC-8, David Scheidt wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

:I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on
:the list.

My experience is that it doesn't. That's just one of the reasons no
one puts it in a can and sells it commercially. I read the original
article, a long time ago, and as I recall the testing method was about
as scientfic as drawing lots.

Commercial penetrating oils are far superior.


Coca-cola?


Apparently it contains phosphoric acid - which is also an ingredient of
some
rust treatments.

The rust is chemically converted into iron phosphate - the end result
bears
some resemblance to the metal equivalent of polystyrene cement.

Where did you get the idea that Coca Cola contains any sort of phosphate?
Other than phosphate salts, most phosphate compounds are poisonous.

From the ingredients label.

Citric Acid
Caffeine
Sugar
Water
Vanilla
Caramel

Which one of those is "phosphate"?

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 12:28:15 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 12:23:50 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Doug Landau" wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 9:55:19 AM UTC-8, David Scheidt wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

:I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on
:the list.

My experience is that it doesn't. That's just one of the reasons no
one puts it in a can and sells it commercially. I read the original
article, a long time ago, and as I recall the testing method was about
as scientfic as drawing lots.

Commercial penetrating oils are far superior.


Coca-cola?


Apparently it contains phosphoric acid - which is also an ingredient of
some
rust treatments.

The rust is chemically converted into iron phosphate - the end result
bears
some resemblance to the metal equivalent of polystyrene cement.

Where did you get the idea that Coca Cola contains any sort of phosphate?
Other than phosphate salts, most phosphate compounds are poisonous.

From the ingredients label.

Citric Acid
Caffeine
Sugar
Water
Vanilla
Caramel

Which one of those is "phosphate"?

Citric Acid has no phosphate in it.
Supar is sucrose so that doesn't
Caramel is sugar heated to the point that it turns brown and liquid. It has a unique taste.
Water isn't it.
Vanilla is an aldehyde - a carbon compound.
Caffeine is a bromine

So if you were told that it's an old wive's tale. Milk has phosphate salts in it and I wouldn't pour milk on my bottom bracket.

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 12:23:50 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:

Where did you get the idea that Coca Cola contains any sort of phosphate?
Other than phosphate salts, most phosphate compounds are poisonous.

From the ingredients label.

I think that we got off to a bad start - I am naturally put off by anyone that would use a posting name that dumb. It always gives me the idea that you're a 12 year old posting. But for all I know you could be Lance Armstrong with the same attitude.

If you don't suggest hitting a bike with a hammer to "fix it" or to use blow torches and nitro glycerin I'll promise not to insult you.

On 1/10/2017 1:52 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 11:36:41 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 22:24:41 -0000, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote:

"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:01:01 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:31:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
(...)

Yet another untested idea...

Use an induction heater on the steel cup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZEaPQinO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJElT9xK3bk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimEZKrVNO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1IBgefNDs [1]
http://www.theinductor.com
You'll need various size coils for different bolts, cups, seat posts,
etc. There are induction heater kits on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-ZVS-Low-Voltage-Induction-Heating-Board-Module-Flyback-Heater-Brass-Coil-/282317713643
The steel cup gets hot and not so much the rest of the bicycle,
including the aluminum bottom bracket which sucks away much of the
heat. However, you can get the steel hot enough to melt the aluminum,
so please use an IR thermometer to keep the temperatures down.
Aluminum melts at 660C.

Yikes!

Is there a problem?

An electric heat gun is safer than a blowtorch - but I think you still
have
to be a bit careful.

The heavy duty paint strippers aren't too bad, but some heat guns are
designed for lighting solid fuel cooking ranges.

The problem with external heat generators is that the heat affected
zone is rather large and will surely creep into undesirable areas,

A bigger problem is heating too small an area and causing the metal to
distort.

I'm sure that you've distorted many bottom brackets with a hair dryer.

and those really big curlers under a plastic cap...

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 12:23:50 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:

Where did you get the idea that Coca Cola contains any sort of
phosphate?
Other than phosphate salts, most phosphate compounds are poisonous.

From the ingredients label.

I think that we got off to a bad start - I am naturally put off by anyone
that would use a posting name that dumb.

So you decided to reply to a post you didn't understand and insert your
opinions that you then tried to present as mine.

I think with you - a bad start is as good as it gets.