Cycle death case handling 'may need to change'

On 26/10/2015 12:15, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:03, Bod wrote:

On 26/10/2015 11:54, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:52, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:48, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:27, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:16, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 08:26, Bod wrote:

The way cycling deaths are treated by police and prosecutors may
need to change, the former Director of Public Prosecutions has
said.

Last year a Freedom of Information request by BBC's Newsbeat found
that between 2007 and 2014 there were 276 recorded incidents where
a cyclist was killed in an accident involving a motor vehicle.
Of these, 148 - 54% - resulted in the driver of the vehicle being
charged with an offence. Of those found guilty, fewer than half
went to prison.

Why need anything "change"?
276/7 = 39 (rounded).
Less than one per week.

A significant proportion of those seem to occur in circumstances
where the cyclist is attempting to undertake a large vehicle (bus,
lorry) which is turning left.
You say the lorry- or bus-driver should go to jail anyway, do you?

If it is deemed by a judge to be the lorry or bus driver's fault,
then
of course.

We use the jury system in the UK.

You know what a jury is, yes?

BTW, it's in the highway code that any vehicle can undertake *if* the
traffic to their right is moving slower.

But not that they may undertake when the vehicle ahead is turning
left.
And that's the issue.

Undertaking - RAC
www.rac.co.uk › Forum › Driving › General Driving Discussion
8 Sep 2011 - 10 posts - ‎6 authors
stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the
queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may
pass on the left.
... However, whilst there is no specific offence of undertaking,
we still have careless ...

...yes... and?

You're the one who brought up undertaking. I'm just clarifying the
legality of such a manouvre.

Surely you'd be better dealing with the stupidity of such a manoeuvre
*when* *the* *large* *vehicle* *in* *front* *is* *turning* *left*?

I do "deal" with that manouvre safely, hence an accident free 61 years
of driving in *all* types of vehicles. Common sense are the keywords,
which applies to all types of vehicles.

Indeed.

I know you are not trying to suggest that lorries and buses should not
be allowed to turn left.

At least, I hope you're not.



Of course not.

On 26/10/2015 12:22, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:15, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:03, Bod wrote:

On 26/10/2015 11:54, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:52, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:48, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:27, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:16, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 08:26, Bod wrote:

The way cycling deaths are treated by police and prosecutors may
need to change, the former Director of Public Prosecutions has
said.

Last year a Freedom of Information request by BBC's Newsbeat found
that between 2007 and 2014 there were 276 recorded incidents where
a cyclist was killed in an accident involving a motor vehicle.
Of these, 148 - 54% - resulted in the driver of the vehicle being
charged with an offence. Of those found guilty, fewer than half
went to prison.

Why need anything "change"?
276/7 = 39 (rounded).
Less than one per week.

A significant proportion of those seem to occur in circumstances
where the cyclist is attempting to undertake a large vehicle (bus,
lorry) which is turning left.
You say the lorry- or bus-driver should go to jail anyway, do you?

If it is deemed by a judge to be the lorry or bus driver's fault,
then
of course.

We use the jury system in the UK.

You know what a jury is, yes?

BTW, it's in the highway code that any vehicle can undertake *if*
the
traffic to their right is moving slower.

But not that they may undertake when the vehicle ahead is turning
left.
And that's the issue.

Undertaking - RAC
www.rac.co.uk › Forum › Driving › General Driving Discussion
8 Sep 2011 - 10 posts - ‎6 authors
stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the
queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may
pass on the left.
... However, whilst there is no specific offence of undertaking,
we still have careless ...

...yes... and?

You're the one who brought up undertaking. I'm just clarifying the
legality of such a manouvre.

Surely you'd be better dealing with the stupidity of such a manoeuvre
*when* *the* *large* *vehicle* *in* *front* *is* *turning* *left*?

I do "deal" with that manouvre safely, hence an accident free 61 years
of driving in *all* types of vehicles. Common sense are the keywords,
which applies to all types of vehicles.

Indeed.
I know you are not trying to suggest that lorries and buses should not
be allowed to turn left.
At least, I hope you're not.

Of course not.

Good.

I know it takes all sorts, but there *are* people who have argued
exactly that.

On 26/10/2015 12:15, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:03, Bod wrote:

On 26/10/2015 11:54, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:52, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:48, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:27, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:16, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 08:26, Bod wrote:

The way cycling deaths are treated by police and prosecutors may
need to change, the former Director of Public Prosecutions has
said.

Last year a Freedom of Information request by BBC's Newsbeat found
that between 2007 and 2014 there were 276 recorded incidents where
a cyclist was killed in an accident involving a motor vehicle.
Of these, 148 - 54% - resulted in the driver of the vehicle being
charged with an offence. Of those found guilty, fewer than half
went to prison.

Why need anything "change"?
276/7 = 39 (rounded).
Less than one per week.

A significant proportion of those seem to occur in circumstances
where the cyclist is attempting to undertake a large vehicle (bus,
lorry) which is turning left.
You say the lorry- or bus-driver should go to jail anyway, do you?

If it is deemed by a judge to be the lorry or bus driver's fault,
then
of course.

We use the jury system in the UK.

You know what a jury is, yes?

BTW, it's in the highway code that any vehicle can undertake *if* the
traffic to their right is moving slower.

But not that they may undertake when the vehicle ahead is turning
left.
And that's the issue.

Undertaking - RAC
www.rac.co.uk › Forum › Driving › General Driving Discussion
8 Sep 2011 - 10 posts - ‎6 authors
stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the
queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may
pass on the left.
... However, whilst there is no specific offence of undertaking,
we still have careless ...

...yes... and?

You're the one who brought up undertaking. I'm just clarifying the
legality of such a manouvre.

Surely you'd be better dealing with the stupidity of such a manoeuvre
*when* *the* *large* *vehicle* *in* *front* *is* *turning* *left*?

I do "deal" with that manouvre safely, hence an accident free 61 years
of driving in *all* types of vehicles. Common sense are the keywords,
which applies to all types of vehicles.

Indeed.

I know you are not trying to suggest that lorries and buses should not
be allowed to turn left.

At least, I hope you're not.



I have known vehicles pulling up alongside me, whilst waiting for lights
to change. Do you suggest cyclists should cede precedence to the *****
trying to turn left?

On 26/10/2015 12:24, colwyn wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:15, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:03, Bod wrote:

On 26/10/2015 11:54, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:52, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:48, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:27, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:16, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 08:26, Bod wrote:

The way cycling deaths are treated by police and prosecutors may
need to change, the former Director of Public Prosecutions has
said.

Last year a Freedom of Information request by BBC's Newsbeat found
that between 2007 and 2014 there were 276 recorded incidents where
a cyclist was killed in an accident involving a motor vehicle.
Of these, 148 - 54% - resulted in the driver of the vehicle being
charged with an offence. Of those found guilty, fewer than half
went to prison.

Why need anything "change"?
276/7 = 39 (rounded).
Less than one per week.

A significant proportion of those seem to occur in circumstances
where the cyclist is attempting to undertake a large vehicle (bus,
lorry) which is turning left.
You say the lorry- or bus-driver should go to jail anyway, do you?

If it is deemed by a judge to be the lorry or bus driver's fault,
then
of course.

We use the jury system in the UK.

You know what a jury is, yes?

BTW, it's in the highway code that any vehicle can undertake *if*
the
traffic to their right is moving slower.

But not that they may undertake when the vehicle ahead is turning
left.
And that's the issue.

Undertaking - RAC
www.rac.co.uk › Forum › Driving › General Driving Discussion
8 Sep 2011 - 10 posts - ‎6 authors
stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the
queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may
pass on the left.
... However, whilst there is no specific offence of undertaking,
we still have careless ...

...yes... and?

You're the one who brought up undertaking. I'm just clarifying the
legality of such a manouvre.

Surely you'd be better dealing with the stupidity of such a manoeuvre
*when* *the* *large* *vehicle* *in* *front* *is* *turning* *left*?

I do "deal" with that manouvre safely, hence an accident free 61 years
of driving in *all* types of vehicles. Common sense are the keywords,
which applies to all types of vehicles.

Indeed.

I know you are not trying to suggest that lorries and buses should not
be allowed to turn left.

At least, I hope you're not.

I have known vehicles pulling up alongside me, whilst waiting for lights
to change. Do you suggest cyclists should cede precedence to the *****
trying to turn left?

Insufficient data.

But whatever the correct full data might be, there is one imperative
which over-arches every other consideration: don't move into the path of
another vehicle (particularly a big one and particularly if there is a
possibility that the driver will not be able to see you) if the result
is likely to be that you end up dead.

Not even on such an important "principle" as you specify.

Just accept that you're going to have to take ten seconds more to get to
work that morning.

At least you'll be alive.

On 26/10/2015 12:29, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:24, colwyn wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:15, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:03, Bod wrote:

On 26/10/2015 11:54, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:52, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:48, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:27, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:16, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 08:26, Bod wrote:

The way cycling deaths are treated by police and prosecutors may
need to change, the former Director of Public Prosecutions has
said.

Last year a Freedom of Information request by BBC's Newsbeat
found
that between 2007 and 2014 there were 276 recorded incidents
where
a cyclist was killed in an accident involving a motor vehicle.
Of these, 148 - 54% - resulted in the driver of the vehicle being
charged with an offence. Of those found guilty, fewer than half
went to prison.

Why need anything "change"?
276/7 = 39 (rounded).
Less than one per week.

A significant proportion of those seem to occur in circumstances
where the cyclist is attempting to undertake a large vehicle (bus,
lorry) which is turning left.
You say the lorry- or bus-driver should go to jail anyway, do you?

If it is deemed by a judge to be the lorry or bus driver's fault,
then
of course.

We use the jury system in the UK.

You know what a jury is, yes?

BTW, it's in the highway code that any vehicle can undertake *if*
the
traffic to their right is moving slower.

But not that they may undertake when the vehicle ahead is turning
left.
And that's the issue.

Undertaking - RAC
www.rac.co.uk › Forum › Driving › General Driving Discussion
8 Sep 2011 - 10 posts - ‎6 authors
stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the
queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may
pass on the left.
... However, whilst there is no specific offence of undertaking,
we still have careless ...

...yes... and?

You're the one who brought up undertaking. I'm just clarifying the
legality of such a manouvre.

Surely you'd be better dealing with the stupidity of such a manoeuvre
*when* *the* *large* *vehicle* *in* *front* *is* *turning* *left*?

I do "deal" with that manouvre safely, hence an accident free 61 years
of driving in *all* types of vehicles. Common sense are the keywords,
which applies to all types of vehicles.

Indeed.

I know you are not trying to suggest that lorries and buses should not
be allowed to turn left.

At least, I hope you're not.

I have known vehicles pulling up alongside me, whilst waiting for lights
to change. Do you suggest cyclists should cede precedence to the *****
trying to turn left?

Insufficient data.

But whatever the correct full data might be, there is one imperative
which over-arches every other consideration: don't move into the path of
another vehicle (particularly a big one and particularly if there is a
possibility that the driver will not be able to see you) if the result
is likely to be that you end up dead.

Not even on such an important "principle" as you specify.

Just accept that you're going to have to take ten seconds more to get to
work that morning.

At least you'll be alive.


I can't argue with that.

On 26/10/2015 12:45, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:29, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:24, colwyn wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:15, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:03, Bod wrote:

On 26/10/2015 11:54, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:52, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:48, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:27, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:16, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 08:26, Bod wrote:

The way cycling deaths are treated by police and prosecutors may
need to change, the former Director of Public Prosecutions has
said.

Last year a Freedom of Information request by BBC's Newsbeat
found
that between 2007 and 2014 there were 276 recorded incidents
where
a cyclist was killed in an accident involving a motor vehicle.
Of these, 148 - 54% - resulted in the driver of the vehicle
being
charged with an offence. Of those found guilty, fewer than half
went to prison.

Why need anything "change"?
276/7 = 39 (rounded).
Less than one per week.

A significant proportion of those seem to occur in circumstances
where the cyclist is attempting to undertake a large vehicle
(bus,
lorry) which is turning left.
You say the lorry- or bus-driver should go to jail anyway, do
you?

If it is deemed by a judge to be the lorry or bus driver's fault,
then
of course.

We use the jury system in the UK.

You know what a jury is, yes?

BTW, it's in the highway code that any vehicle can undertake *if*
the
traffic to their right is moving slower.

But not that they may undertake when the vehicle ahead is turning
left.
And that's the issue.

Undertaking - RAC
www.rac.co.uk › Forum › Driving › General Driving Discussion
8 Sep 2011 - 10 posts - ‎6 authors
stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the
queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may
pass on the left.
... However, whilst there is no specific offence of undertaking,
we still have careless ...

...yes... and?

You're the one who brought up undertaking. I'm just clarifying the
legality of such a manouvre.

Surely you'd be better dealing with the stupidity of such a manoeuvre
*when* *the* *large* *vehicle* *in* *front* *is* *turning* *left*?

I do "deal" with that manouvre safely, hence an accident free 61 years
of driving in *all* types of vehicles. Common sense are the keywords,
which applies to all types of vehicles.

Indeed.

I know you are not trying to suggest that lorries and buses should not
be allowed to turn left.

At least, I hope you're not.

I have known vehicles pulling up alongside me, whilst waiting for lights
to change. Do you suggest cyclists should cede precedence to the *****
trying to turn left?

Insufficient data.

But whatever the correct full data might be, there is one imperative
which over-arches every other consideration: don't move into the path of
another vehicle (particularly a big one and particularly if there is a
possibility that the driver will not be able to see you) if the result
is likely to be that you end up dead.

Not even on such an important "principle" as you specify.

Just accept that you're going to have to take ten seconds more to get to
work that morning.

At least you'll be alive.


I can't argue with that.

It was designed to be unarguable.

On 26/10/2015 12:29, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:24, colwyn wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:15, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:03, Bod wrote:

On 26/10/2015 11:54, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:52, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:48, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:27, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:16, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 08:26, Bod wrote:

The way cycling deaths are treated by police and prosecutors may
need to change, the former Director of Public Prosecutions has
said.

Last year a Freedom of Information request by BBC's Newsbeat
found
that between 2007 and 2014 there were 276 recorded incidents
where
a cyclist was killed in an accident involving a motor vehicle.
Of these, 148 - 54% - resulted in the driver of the vehicle being
charged with an offence. Of those found guilty, fewer than half
went to prison.

Why need anything "change"?
276/7 = 39 (rounded).
Less than one per week.

A significant proportion of those seem to occur in circumstances
where the cyclist is attempting to undertake a large vehicle (bus,
lorry) which is turning left.
You say the lorry- or bus-driver should go to jail anyway, do you?

If it is deemed by a judge to be the lorry or bus driver's fault,
then
of course.

We use the jury system in the UK.

You know what a jury is, yes?

BTW, it's in the highway code that any vehicle can undertake *if*
the
traffic to their right is moving slower.

But not that they may undertake when the vehicle ahead is turning
left.
And that's the issue.

Undertaking - RAC
www.rac.co.uk › Forum › Driving › General Driving Discussion
8 Sep 2011 - 10 posts - ‎6 authors
stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the
queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may
pass on the left.
... However, whilst there is no specific offence of undertaking,
we still have careless ...

...yes... and?

You're the one who brought up undertaking. I'm just clarifying the
legality of such a manouvre.

Surely you'd be better dealing with the stupidity of such a manoeuvre
*when* *the* *large* *vehicle* *in* *front* *is* *turning* *left*?

I do "deal" with that manouvre safely, hence an accident free 61 years
of driving in *all* types of vehicles. Common sense are the keywords,
which applies to all types of vehicles.

Indeed.

I know you are not trying to suggest that lorries and buses should not
be allowed to turn left.

At least, I hope you're not.

I have known vehicles pulling up alongside me, whilst waiting for lights
to change. Do you suggest cyclists should cede precedence to the *****
trying to turn left?

Insufficient data.

But whatever the correct full data might be, there is one imperative
which over-arches every other consideration: don't move into the path of
another vehicle (particularly a big one and particularly if there is a
possibility that the driver will not be able to see you) if the result
is likely to be that you end up dead.

Not even on such an important "principle" as you specify.

Just accept that you're going to have to take ten seconds more to get to
work that morning.

At least you'll be alive.


Problem is: I sit on my bike at a red traffic light, vehicle* pulls up
alongside on my right intending to turn left. Lights change to green, I
would expect the vehicle* to cede priority to me and turn after I have
cleared the crossing and not run me over because I am now in a blind spot!
Alternatively, I wait and vehicle* on my right starts to turn in front
of me, do I now wait to be dragged under the rear wheels?
(*Vehicle = bus, car, lorry with or without trailer, rear wheels go
frequently over the pavement even.)

On 26/10/2015 14:13, colwyn wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:29, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:24, colwyn wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:15, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 12:03, Bod wrote:

On 26/10/2015 11:54, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:52, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:48, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:27, Bod wrote:
On 26/10/2015 11:16, JNugent wrote:
On 26/10/2015 08:26, Bod wrote:

The way cycling deaths are treated by police and prosecutors may
need to change, the former Director of Public Prosecutions has
said.

Last year a Freedom of Information request by BBC's Newsbeat
found
that between 2007 and 2014 there were 276 recorded incidents
where
a cyclist was killed in an accident involving a motor vehicle.
Of these, 148 - 54% - resulted in the driver of the vehicle
being
charged with an offence. Of those found guilty, fewer than half
went to prison.

Why need anything "change"?
276/7 = 39 (rounded).
Less than one per week.

A significant proportion of those seem to occur in circumstances
where the cyclist is attempting to undertake a large vehicle
(bus,
lorry) which is turning left.
You say the lorry- or bus-driver should go to jail anyway, do
you?

If it is deemed by a judge to be the lorry or bus driver's fault,
then
of course.

We use the jury system in the UK.

You know what a jury is, yes?

BTW, it's in the highway code that any vehicle can undertake *if*
the
traffic to their right is moving slower.

But not that they may undertake when the vehicle ahead is turning
left.
And that's the issue.

Undertaking - RAC
www.rac.co.uk › Forum › Driving › General Driving Discussion
8 Sep 2011 - 10 posts - ‎6 authors
stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the
queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may
pass on the left.
... However, whilst there is no specific offence of undertaking,
we still have careless ...

...yes... and?

You're the one who brought up undertaking. I'm just clarifying the
legality of such a manouvre.

Surely you'd be better dealing with the stupidity of such a manoeuvre
*when* *the* *large* *vehicle* *in* *front* *is* *turning* *left*?

I do "deal" with that manouvre safely, hence an accident free 61 years
of driving in *all* types of vehicles. Common sense are the keywords,
which applies to all types of vehicles.

Indeed.

I know you are not trying to suggest that lorries and buses should not
be allowed to turn left.

At least, I hope you're not.

I have known vehicles pulling up alongside me, whilst waiting for lights
to change. Do you suggest cyclists should cede precedence to the *****
trying to turn left?

Insufficient data.

But whatever the correct full data might be, there is one imperative
which over-arches every other consideration: don't move into the path of
another vehicle (particularly a big one and particularly if there is a
possibility that the driver will not be able to see you) if the result
is likely to be that you end up dead.

Not even on such an important "principle" as you specify.

Just accept that you're going to have to take ten seconds more to get to
work that morning.

At least you'll be alive.

Problem is: I sit on my bike at a red traffic light, vehicle* pulls up
alongside on my right intending to turn left. Lights change to green, I
would expect the vehicle* to cede priority to me and turn after I have
cleared the crossing and not run me over because I am now in a blind spot!
Alternatively, I wait and vehicle* on my right starts to turn in front
of me, do I now wait to be dragged under the rear wheels?
(*Vehicle = bus, car, lorry with or without trailer, rear wheels go
frequently over the pavement even.)

It's easy.

Really, it is!

Just get off the bike and haul it onto the footway, preferably as near
to the property boundary, and as far away from the kerb, as possible.

You rarely if ever hear of pedestrians being injured in similar
circumstances. If it happens as you describe, become a (genuine)
pedestrian immediately and stay well away from the lorry (or whatever it
is).

Win/win.

The only loss is to your travelling time target, and that's nowhere near
the top on any reasonable scale of priorities. Is it?

I ride a bike to get to get from a to b. Not to çower in doorways!

On 26/10/2015 15:08, me wrote:

I ride a bike to get to get from a to b. Not to çower in doorways!

Whoever you are, remember that there is no point in getting from point A
to point A+, dying on the spot and never getting to Point B.

YMMV.