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AG: Aunt Granny's Advice, or How to become an elderly cyclist:



 
 
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  #181  
Old March 27th 15, 01:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 606
Default AG: Country Roads

On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 21:47:37 +0000, Andy Morris [email protected]
wrote:

for one thing, the car behind you is bigger, stronger, faster and
harder then you are. The proverbial 600 lb. gorilla, in other words.

It is usually suggested that he gets to do whatever he wants to while
you the smaller, weaker, slower and softer creature stay out of the
gorilla's way.

It is often argued that if the gorilla stomps you into the ground like
a grease spot that the LAW will punish him. Which would seem to be of
little interest to you as you'll be dead.

Why do you feel you are responsible for the car behind? If they want to
overtake they can change lane, if its not safe for them to do that do
you really want to encourage them to squeeze by?

On 08/03/2015 03:31, Joy Beeson wrote:

On a lonely country road, ride far enough to the left -- this being a
multinational forum, make that "close enough to the center" -- that
you can make a dramatic and visible move toward the edge of the road.

When you hear a car coming, watch it in your mirror until you are
quite sure the driver can see you turn your head as if looking back
before you move toward the edge of the road.

--
Cheers,

John B.
Ads
  #182  
Old March 27th 15, 03:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,434
Default AG: Country Roads

On 08/03/2015 03:31, Joy Beeson wrote:

On a lonely country road, ride far enough to the left -- this being a
multinational forum, make that "close enough to the center" -- that
you can make a dramatic and visible move toward the edge of the road.

When you hear a car coming, watch it in your mirror until you are
quite sure the driver can see you turn your head as if looking back
before you move toward the edge of the road.

On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 21:47:37 +0000, Andy Morris [email protected]
wrote:

Why do you feel you are responsible for the car behind? If they want to
overtake they can change lane, if its not safe for them to do that do
you really want to encourage them to squeeze by?


Then, On 3/26/2015 8:41 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

for one thing, the car behind you is bigger, stronger, faster and
harder then you are. The proverbial 600 lb. gorilla, in other words.

It is usually suggested that he gets to do whatever he wants to while
you the smaller, weaker, slower and softer creature stay out of the
gorilla's way.

It is often argued that if the gorilla stomps you into the ground like
a grease spot that the LAW will punish him. Which would seem to be of
little interest to you as you'll be dead.


Well, having tried pretty much every reasonable strategy, I've formed
these opinions:

First, if the lane is too narrow for safe passing within the lane, I
stay pretty much lane centered. As Andy said, I really don't want to
encourage them to pass until they can move over.

But if the lane is wider, and especially if it's of marginal width -
i.e., I might share it with a Geo Metro, but might feel uncomfortable
with a Cadillac Escalade - I find it's helpful to ride lane centered
long enough that the motorists visibly slow. Then I move right, as Joy
said. Almost all motorists seem to interpret that as "Oh, what a nice
guy." And the result is almost always a slow, careful pass.

And speaking of Escalades: It's _finally_ half-decent riding weather
here. Yesterday, riding to the hardware store on the normally busy 5
lane road (12 foot lanes, IIRC), I happened to be almost alone... except
for a white Escalade that came up behind me. Despite the open left
lane, he blared his horn in an unfriendly manner.

I stayed where I was (lane center) and waved a couple times, something
like either "Hello" or "Of course I know you're there." Then I gave
what I hope was an obviously displeased motion saying "So pass me,
dammit!" Which he did. No further trouble. And no conceding anything
on my part.

It's like this every spring. The Escalade drivers have had a whole
winter to glory in their supposed superiority and privilege. It takes a
few weeks for them to remember that "Oh yeah, those guys have a legal
right to the road, too."

Cowering at the right just slows their learning process.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #183  
Old March 27th 15, 12:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 606
Default AG: Country Roads

On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 22:17:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 08/03/2015 03:31, Joy Beeson wrote:

On a lonely country road, ride far enough to the left -- this being a
multinational forum, make that "close enough to the center" -- that
you can make a dramatic and visible move toward the edge of the road.

When you hear a car coming, watch it in your mirror until you are
quite sure the driver can see you turn your head as if looking back
before you move toward the edge of the road.

On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 21:47:37 +0000, Andy Morris [email protected]
wrote:

Why do you feel you are responsible for the car behind? If they want to
overtake they can change lane, if its not safe for them to do that do
you really want to encourage them to squeeze by?


Then, On 3/26/2015 8:41 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

for one thing, the car behind you is bigger, stronger, faster and
harder then you are. The proverbial 600 lb. gorilla, in other words.

It is usually suggested that he gets to do whatever he wants to while
you the smaller, weaker, slower and softer creature stay out of the
gorilla's way.

It is often argued that if the gorilla stomps you into the ground like
a grease spot that the LAW will punish him. Which would seem to be of
little interest to you as you'll be dead.


Well, having tried pretty much every reasonable strategy, I've formed
these opinions:

First, if the lane is too narrow for safe passing within the lane, I
stay pretty much lane centered. As Andy said, I really don't want to
encourage them to pass until they can move over.

But if the lane is wider, and especially if it's of marginal width -
i.e., I might share it with a Geo Metro, but might feel uncomfortable
with a Cadillac Escalade - I find it's helpful to ride lane centered
long enough that the motorists visibly slow. Then I move right, as Joy
said. Almost all motorists seem to interpret that as "Oh, what a nice
guy." And the result is almost always a slow, careful pass.

And speaking of Escalades: It's _finally_ half-decent riding weather
here. Yesterday, riding to the hardware store on the normally busy 5
lane road (12 foot lanes, IIRC), I happened to be almost alone... except
for a white Escalade that came up behind me. Despite the open left
lane, he blared his horn in an unfriendly manner.

I stayed where I was (lane center) and waved a couple times, something
like either "Hello" or "Of course I know you're there." Then I gave
what I hope was an obviously displeased motion saying "So pass me,
dammit!" Which he did. No further trouble. And no conceding anything
on my part.


But what happens if he doesn't see you or just decides to run over
you? Country road, no traffic, pain in the arse, who's to know?

Something similar happened here in Thailand. A foreign couple
apparently riding side by side on a fairly wide two lane road were hit
and killed by a pickup truck that ran into them from the rear. The
Thai driving the pickup said that he dropped his phone and was
reaching down for it and didn't see them.

Obviously the pickup driver had to say something, he couldn't just
ignore the fact that he had run over two people and what actually
happened is anyone's guess. But the fact remains that the cyclists are
dead. Had they been riding in a single line on the side of the road
they might not be.

It's like this every spring. The Escalade drivers have had a whole
winter to glory in their supposed superiority and privilege. It takes a
few weeks for them to remember that "Oh yeah, those guys have a legal
right to the road, too."

Cowering at the right just slows their learning process.


Yes, I believe in every state a cyclist has a right to use the public
highway, but does he have a right to impede other traffic? It has been
a while since I drove in the U.S. but I definitely have the
recollection that one was not entitled to impede other drivers. I
remember signs stating "Slow traffic keep right".

I also remember seeing trucks hauling sections of gigantic concrete
pipe that weren't allowed to travel during the day or early evening,
because their load took up more than one lane.
--
Cheers,

John B.
  #184  
Old March 27th 15, 06:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,434
Default AG: Country Roads

On 3/27/2015 7:00 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 22:17:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:


And speaking of Escalades: It's _finally_ half-decent riding weather
here. Yesterday, riding to the hardware store on the normally busy 5
lane road (12 foot lanes, IIRC), I happened to be almost alone... except
for a white Escalade that came up behind me. Despite the open left
lane, he blared his horn in an unfriendly manner.

I stayed where I was (lane center) and waved a couple times, something
like either "Hello" or "Of course I know you're there." Then I gave
what I hope was an obviously displeased motion saying "So pass me,
dammit!" Which he did. No further trouble. And no conceding anything
on my part.


But what happens if he doesn't see you or just decides to run over
you? Country road, no traffic, pain in the arse, who's to know?

Something similar happened here in Thailand. A foreign couple
apparently riding side by side on a fairly wide two lane road were hit
and killed by a pickup truck that ran into them from the rear. The
Thai driving the pickup said that he dropped his phone and was
reaching down for it and didn't see them.

Obviously the pickup driver had to say something, he couldn't just
ignore the fact that he had run over two people and what actually
happened is anyone's guess. But the fact remains that the cyclists are
dead. Had they been riding in a single line on the side of the road
they might not be.


First, I think I lessen my chances of not being noticed (due to cell
phones or whatever) by being less prominent in the road. I've confirmed
this to my satisfaction by observing upcoming motorists in my mirror.
When I'm more leftward, they adjust much sooner by merging left.

If you're going to worry about the risk of deliberate homicide, remember
that in the U.S., cyclists fatalities from _all_ causes happen only once
in at least 10 million miles of riding; and half of those are due to
blatant cyclist mistakes. Deliberate homicide is probably once in 100
million miles or so, and those murderers can take out pedestrians in
crosswalks or on country roads, too. I'm not going to worry so much
that I travel only in a nice safe car.


It's like this every spring. The Escalade drivers have had a whole
winter to glory in their supposed superiority and privilege. It takes a
few weeks for them to remember that "Oh yeah, those guys have a legal
right to the road, too."

Cowering at the right just slows their learning process.


Yes, I believe in every state a cyclist has a right to use the public
highway, but does he have a right to impede other traffic?


Some states have a "five or more" law saying any slow vehicle operator
has to let a train of cars by when he can safely pull off. If he can't
safely pull off, he keeps going. And a significant court case in Ohio -
which generated a legal precedent - said that courts can't convict of
impeding without taking the capability of the vehicle into account. IOW
if you're moving at a reasonable speed for a bicycle, you're legally OK.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #185  
Old March 28th 15, 12:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 606
Default AG: Country Roads

On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 13:46:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/27/2015 7:00 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 22:17:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:


And speaking of Escalades: It's _finally_ half-decent riding weather
here. Yesterday, riding to the hardware store on the normally busy 5
lane road (12 foot lanes, IIRC), I happened to be almost alone... except
for a white Escalade that came up behind me. Despite the open left
lane, he blared his horn in an unfriendly manner.

I stayed where I was (lane center) and waved a couple times, something
like either "Hello" or "Of course I know you're there." Then I gave
what I hope was an obviously displeased motion saying "So pass me,
dammit!" Which he did. No further trouble. And no conceding anything
on my part.


But what happens if he doesn't see you or just decides to run over
you? Country road, no traffic, pain in the arse, who's to know?

Something similar happened here in Thailand. A foreign couple
apparently riding side by side on a fairly wide two lane road were hit
and killed by a pickup truck that ran into them from the rear. The
Thai driving the pickup said that he dropped his phone and was
reaching down for it and didn't see them.

Obviously the pickup driver had to say something, he couldn't just
ignore the fact that he had run over two people and what actually
happened is anyone's guess. But the fact remains that the cyclists are
dead. Had they been riding in a single line on the side of the road
they might not be.


First, I think I lessen my chances of not being noticed (due to cell
phones or whatever) by being less prominent in the road. I've confirmed
this to my satisfaction by observing upcoming motorists in my mirror.
When I'm more leftward, they adjust much sooner by merging left.

If you're going to worry about the risk of deliberate homicide, remember
that in the U.S., cyclists fatalities from _all_ causes happen only once
in at least 10 million miles of riding; and half of those are due to
blatant cyclist mistakes. Deliberate homicide is probably once in 100
million miles or so, and those murderers can take out pedestrians in
crosswalks or on country roads, too. I'm not going to worry so much
that I travel only in a nice safe car.

No, I wasn't advocating casual homicide, I was merely using that as a
maximum measure if what might happen - driver texting, big truck
turning right, guy runs a stop light, etc.


It's like this every spring. The Escalade drivers have had a whole
winter to glory in their supposed superiority and privilege. It takes a
few weeks for them to remember that "Oh yeah, those guys have a legal
right to the road, too."

Cowering at the right just slows their learning process.


Yes, I believe in every state a cyclist has a right to use the public
highway, but does he have a right to impede other traffic?


Some states have a "five or more" law saying any slow vehicle operator
has to let a train of cars by when he can safely pull off. If he can't
safely pull off, he keeps going. And a significant court case in Ohio -
which generated a legal precedent - said that courts can't convict of
impeding without taking the capability of the vehicle into account. IOW
if you're moving at a reasonable speed for a bicycle, you're legally OK.


I mentioned the huge concrete ducts which apparently were too big as
the trucks were parked off the highway during hours of daylight, and a
look at Ohio shows:

4511.22 Slow speed.
(A) No person shall stop or operate a vehicle, trackless trolley, or
street car at such an unreasonably slow speed as to impede or block
the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, except when stopping or
reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or to comply with law.

and

(B) Whenever the director of transportation or local authorities
determine on the basis of an engineering and traffic investigation
that slow speeds on any part of a controlled-access highway,
expressway, or freeway consistently impede the normal and reasonable
movement of traffic, the director or such local authority may declare
a minimum speed limit below which no person shall operate a motor
vehicle, trackless trolley, or street car except when necessary for
safe operation or in compliance with law. No minimum speed limit
established hereunder shall be less than thirty miles per hour,
greater than fifty miles per hour, nor effective until the provisions
of section 4511.21 of the Revised Code, relating to appropriate signs,
have been fulfilled and local authorities have obtained the approval
of the director.

Arizona law states:

ARS 28-704-A reads:
A person shall not drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as
to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic
except when either of the following applies:. . .

ARS 28-815 conditionally requires a bicycle to be operated as close as
practicable to the right-hand curb. "as practicable" means
sustainable, safely and for the long term.

It would appear that U.S. law, in general, does not cater to the
individual that deliberately impedes other traffic.

On a personal basis I can't see how impeding others is justified as a
matter of habit. It seems like a very selfish act.

Rather like justifying armed robbery, "because the bloke ran out of
money".
--
Cheers,

John B.
  #186  
Old March 29th 15, 01:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,434
Default AG: Country Roads

On 3/27/2015 7:11 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

On a personal basis I can't see how impeding others is justified as a
matter of habit. It seems like a very selfish act.

Rather like justifying armed robbery, "because the bloke ran out of
money".


Well, my recent run to the hardware store on the bike was likely to
delay some motorist, even though it actually didn't. But the delay, had
it occurred, would have been far less than 30 seconds; it's usually less
than five seconds (the time a motorist typically has to wait to change
lanes and get around me).

In any other context - e.g. pushing a grocery cart down an aisle, taking
a child shopping, stopping to buy something from a sidewalk vendor -
delaying someone else by five seconds doesn't raise an eyebrow; it's
normal human interaction, seldom requiring even "excuse me."

For some weird reason, it's considered an offense only when the person
delayed is sitting on a super-comfortable seat, in air-conditioned
comfort, while listening to his favorite music. Go figure!


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #187  
Old March 29th 15, 04:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,185
Default AG: The best fluid for hydration


There's a lot of discussion on what to drink, what temperature it
should be, and so forth -- but the important question is "can you get
it inside the patient?". The best hydrating fluid is something that
you like and will drink lots of.

--
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://joybeeson.home.comcast.net/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

  #188  
Old March 29th 15, 05:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 606
Default AG: Country Roads

On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 20:02:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/27/2015 7:11 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

On a personal basis I can't see how impeding others is justified as a
matter of habit. It seems like a very selfish act.

Rather like justifying armed robbery, "because the bloke ran out of
money".


Well, my recent run to the hardware store on the bike was likely to
delay some motorist, even though it actually didn't. But the delay, had
it occurred, would have been far less than 30 seconds; it's usually less
than five seconds (the time a motorist typically has to wait to change
lanes and get around me).

In any other context - e.g. pushing a grocery cart down an aisle, taking
a child shopping, stopping to buy something from a sidewalk vendor -
delaying someone else by five seconds doesn't raise an eyebrow; it's
normal human interaction, seldom requiring even "excuse me."

Yes. Most noticeable when the other shopping cart driver demonstrate
that she/he is willing to make way for others. A different attitude is
frequently seen when the shopper drives down the middle of the aisle
blocking all the other traffic.

For some weird reason, it's considered an offense only when the person
delayed is sitting on a super-comfortable seat, in air-conditioned
comfort, while listening to his favorite music. Go figure!


That isn't really true, is it. I can remember years ago when people
driving 1948 Fords used to complain about some farmer and his team
hauling a wagon load of loose hay down the road.
--
Cheers,

John B.
  #189  
Old March 29th 15, 01:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
smharding
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default AG: Country Roads

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 08/03/2015 03:31, Joy Beeson wrote:


On a lonely country road, ride far enough to the left -- this being a
multinational forum, make that "close enough to the center" -- that
you can make a dramatic and visible move toward the edge of the road.

When you hear a car coming, watch it in your mirror until you are
quite sure the driver can see you turn your head as if looking back
before you move toward the edge of the road.

On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 21:47:37 +0000, Andy Morris [email protected]
wrote:

Why do you feel you are responsible for the car behind? If they want to
overtake they can change lane, if its not safe for them to do that do
you really want to encourage them to squeeze by?


Then, On 3/26/2015 8:41 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

for one thing, the car behind you is bigger, stronger, faster and
harder then you are. The proverbial 600 lb. gorilla, in other words.

It is usually suggested that he gets to do whatever he wants to while
you the smaller, weaker, slower and softer creature stay out of the
gorilla's way.

It is often argued that if the gorilla stomps you into the ground like
a grease spot that the LAW will punish him. Which would seem to be of
little interest to you as you'll be dead.


Well, having tried pretty much every reasonable strategy, I've formed
these opinions:

First, if the lane is too narrow for safe passing within the lane, I
stay pretty much lane centered. As Andy said, I really don't want to
encourage them to pass until they can move over.

But if the lane is wider, and especially if it's of marginal width -
i.e., I might share it with a Geo Metro, but might feel uncomfortable
with a Cadillac Escalade - I find it's helpful to ride lane centered
long enough that the motorists visibly slow. Then I move right, as Joy
said. Almost all motorists seem to interpret that as "Oh, what a nice
guy." And the result is almost always a slow, careful pass.

And speaking of Escalades: It's _finally_ half-decent riding weather
here. Yesterday, riding to the hardware store on the normally busy 5
lane road (12 foot lanes, IIRC), I happened to be almost alone... except
for a white Escalade that came up behind me. Despite the open left
lane, he blared his horn in an unfriendly manner.

I stayed where I was (lane center) and waved a couple times, something
like either "Hello" or "Of course I know you're there." Then I gave
what I hope was an obviously displeased motion saying "So pass me,
dammit!" Which he did. No further trouble. And no conceding anything
on my part.

It's like this every spring. The Escalade drivers have had a whole
winter to glory in their supposed superiority and privilege. It takes a
few weeks for them to remember that "Oh yeah, those guys have a legal
right to the road, too."

Cowering at the right just slows their learning process.


While I generally agree with what has been said about being more assertive
in the lane to avoid those close shaves many motorists seem willing to inflict
upon bicyclists, I've always gotten some amusement out of the vilification
of the "guy in the Escalade" when describing bicyclist-motorist negative
interactions.

It reminds me of some movie plots where bad guys doing evil things are
given the final negative character flaw of using a racist remark, making the
audience feel that guy really deserves to be taken out.

I live in a heavy college age driver environment and I quite frankly worry
more about the five college area kid in a small Honda or Toyota pulling that
stuff on bicyclists than people driving those oh so awful big SUVs.


SMH
  #190  
Old March 29th 15, 05:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,434
Default AG: The best fluid for hydration

On 3/28/2015 11:27 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:

There's a lot of discussion on what to drink, what temperature it
should be, and so forth -- but the important question is "can you get
it inside the patient?". The best hydrating fluid is something that
you like and will drink lots of.


I've found that adding a little salt to my water makes it much easier to
"get inside the patient," especially on long rides in hot weather. And
for me, salt substitute works even better.

The little bottle I've had for years is "Cardia Salt" - part sodium
chloride, part potassium chloride, part magnesium sulfate.


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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