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  #61  
Old March 16th 18, 12:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 183
Default New bike path

On 15/03/2018 8:55 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 1:16:28 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-15 12:31, Duane wrote:
On 15/03/2018 12:30 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/15/2018 11:23 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/15/2018 8:47 AM, Duane wrote:
On 14/03/2018 9:09 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:36:45 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

If you provide proper infrastructure
they will come:

That's the second time this week that I've cackled aloud
while sitting
at the computer.

I don't *do* that sort of thing.


I rarely use segregated paths but there is a ride I like
to do from my house in Montreal West Island area to the
old port. It's ~100k and really nice. About 80k of it
is on bike paths. These paths follow the river and then
the Lachine canal so there are basically no
intersections. Along the canal where the path crosses
city streets the path has under or overpasses.

Here's the thing. I take the day off work on my birthday
and do this ride with some friends because there's no one
on the paths outside of the commute hours. At commute
time it's too crowded. On weekends and holidays it's
packed.

So I guess my point is that if they make these things
people use them. In Montreal, a lot of people use them.Â
Whether or not they make sense for commuters is another
story. And group riding on bike paths is a bad idea in
any case if the paths aren't empty.

Most of us probably enjoy a segregated path that's
well-maintained, scenic, and mostly empty. Probably few of
us enjoy a MUP when it's seeing heavy use. And with good
reason! With widely varying users, narrow spaces and a "no
rules" environment, movements are often chaotic.

So Joerg should lobby for paths that will be unpopular,
because those make for the best riding. Of course, that's a
tough sell. Can you imagine asking for tax money for a new
freeway, by saying "It will be great! Hardly anyone will use
it!"

Nationwide, only a tiny percentage of these facilities can
be justified as shifting mode share from cars to bikes.
Despite the cherry-picked examples, most miles of MUP
connect nowhere to nowhere, for obvious reasons.

So almost all are linear parks, even though they're "sold"
as being transportation facilities. They should be paid for
from park taxes, not federal or state transportation tax
dollars.


Some citizens use and appreciate them, just not for cycling:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=assault+on...th&t=hg&ia=web


Well my point was that even though some of us don't use crowded
segregated paths, the fact that they are crowded indicates that many
people do use them.


Last Sunday it was a joy to see a very full paved section of the El
Dorado Trail from Placerville to Camino (California). It seems that the
New Year's resolutions of many people have stuck this year.

Yeah, we can all complain about having to slow down for kids, dogs or
slow riders. Yet for some reason cyclists who complain about that do not
complain if they spend minutes in slow traffic behind a crawling conga
line of trucks.


I complain if I have to sit in slow traffic, but the beauty of being on a bike is that I rarely have to do that, except where passing is impossible. Bicycles may permissibly pass on the right when safe in Oregon. I sit in traffic in the mornings, but I'm still making better time than the cars and passing on either side when possible and safe.


In Quebec there is not rider to allow cyclists to pass on the right so
they're restricted to the regular vehicle laws. On my commute there are
not many roads I take without a bike lane though so that helps get me by
the traffic. Where there are no lanes I sit in the traffic like the cars.


I see it this way: Every slow down is followed by an acceleration event
and that builds muscle. Plus I might get to pet a dog or encourage a kid
on a tricycle to keep on mashing the pedals. It means a lot to them when
an adult says "Good job!".



Bike paths in Quebec have a speed limit of 20km/h so doesn't allow for
much of an acceleration event. And anyway they're usually crowded
enough that slow downs are that sporadic.

Out of curiosity, do you have kids? Half of them will think you're a creep or just in their way. The other half might think you're mildly amusing. Kids are accustomed to hearing "good job" -- little Jimmy on the trike probably hears it ten times a day. It's not like he's going to ride over to his parents and say, "geepers, mom and dad, that creepy man over there said I did a good job! That makes me feel so good! It means a lot to me!" In reality, dealing with kids on trikes on a MUP is usually just a matter of giving them a wide berth. It's kind of like dealing with squirrels -- well, strike that. I'll run over squirrels.


It's chipmunks here. They're suicidal.


Linear parks are fine and some can be useful travel routes for bikes, but mixing bikes and walkers always results in a sub-optimal experience for both -- particularly when you have parents with walkers, dogs and kids on trikes (common around here) and sometimes steep grades. I walk and ride the same local trail, and descending bikes are a menace. I always take the adjacent road when on a bike.


The way I look at it is that the linear parks are pretty much not for
me. The people that fill them up seem to get along ok as long as some
group of MAMILs doesn't terrorize them. My club rides tend to avoid
paths. For morning commuters they're not bad as most recreational users
aren't out at 6am. On the ride home it's a different thing.

Same here regarding steep roads.




Ads
  #62  
Old March 16th 18, 03:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,506
Default New bike path

On 2018-03-15 17:55, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 1:16:28 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-15 12:31, Duane wrote:
On 15/03/2018 12:30 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/15/2018 11:23 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/15/2018 8:47 AM, Duane wrote:
On 14/03/2018 9:09 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:36:45 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

If you provide proper infrastructure they will come:

That's the second time this week that I've cackled aloud
while sitting at the computer.

I don't *do* that sort of thing.


I rarely use segregated paths but there is a ride I like to
do from my house in Montreal West Island area to the old
port. It's ~100k and really nice. About 80k of it is on
bike paths. These paths follow the river and then the
Lachine canal so there are basically no intersections.Â
Along the canal where the path crosses city streets the
path has under or overpasses.

Here's the thing. I take the day off work on my birthday
and do this ride with some friends because there's no one
on the paths outside of the commute hours. At commute
time it's too crowded. On weekends and holidays it's
packed.

So I guess my point is that if they make these things
people use them. In Montreal, a lot of people use them.Â
Whether or not they make sense for commuters is another
story. And group riding on bike paths is a bad idea in
any case if the paths aren't empty.

Most of us probably enjoy a segregated path that's
well-maintained, scenic, and mostly empty. Probably few of us
enjoy a MUP when it's seeing heavy use. And with good reason!
With widely varying users, narrow spaces and a "no rules"
environment, movements are often chaotic.

So Joerg should lobby for paths that will be unpopular,
because those make for the best riding. Of course, that's a
tough sell. Can you imagine asking for tax money for a new
freeway, by saying "It will be great! Hardly anyone will use
it!"

Nationwide, only a tiny percentage of these facilities can be
justified as shifting mode share from cars to bikes. Despite
the cherry-picked examples, most miles of MUP connect nowhere
to nowhere, for obvious reasons.

So almost all are linear parks, even though they're "sold" as
being transportation facilities. They should be paid for from
park taxes, not federal or state transportation tax dollars.


Some citizens use and appreciate them, just not for cycling:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=assault+on...th&t=hg&ia=web


Well my point was that even though some of us don't use crowded
segregated paths, the fact that they are crowded indicates that
many people do use them.


Last Sunday it was a joy to see a very full paved section of the
El Dorado Trail from Placerville to Camino (California). It seems
that the New Year's resolutions of many people have stuck this
year.

Yeah, we can all complain about having to slow down for kids, dogs
or slow riders. Yet for some reason cyclists who complain about
that do not complain if they spend minutes in slow traffic behind a
crawling conga line of trucks.


I complain if I have to sit in slow traffic, but the beauty of being
on a bike is that I rarely have to do that, except where passing is
impossible. Bicycles may permissibly pass on the right when safe in
Oregon. I sit in traffic in the mornings, but I'm still making
better time than the cars and passing on either side when possible
and safe.


Until some day a passenger in an Uber or Lyft vehicle suddenly decides
he'll walk the rest and swings the door open with gusto.

I also pass on the right but then at slow speed and not like crazy
lane-splitting motorcyclists.



I see it this way: Every slow down is followed by an acceleration
event and that builds muscle. Plus I might get to pet a dog or
encourage a kid on a tricycle to keep on mashing the pedals. It
means a lot to them when an adult says "Good job!".


Out of curiosity, do you have kids?



Unfortunately not.


... Half of them will think you're a
creep or just in their way. The other half might think you're mildly
amusing. Kids are accustomed to hearing "good job" -- little Jimmy
on the trike probably hears it ten times a day. It's not like he's
going to ride over to his parents and say, "geepers, mom and dad,
that creepy man over there said I did a good job! That makes me feel
so good! It means a lot to me!"



My experience is different. Mostly it elicited a big smile, maybe
because this did not come from a parent or close relative. Also, in the
more rural regions of America kids are often brought up the
old-fashioned way, with proper expectations of them and without
pampering or excessive praise.

It's also good to praise a horse or a dog for good trail etiquette. They
often notice it favorably and it costs the cyclist nothing. One rider
thanked me saying "Sam really likes that".


... In reality, dealing with kids on
trikes on a MUP is usually just a matter of giving them a wide berth.



I do that regardless.


It's kind of like dealing with squirrels -- well, strike that. I'll
run over squirrels.


I don't like hitting animals, ever. Couldn't avoid running over some
though, squirrels and ... rattlesnakes. Once almost a deer but he'd have
won.


Linear parks are fine and some can be useful travel routes for bikes,
but mixing bikes and walkers always results in a sub-optimal
experience for both -- particularly when you have parents with
walkers, dogs and kids on trikes (common around here) and sometimes
steep grades. I walk and ride the same local trail, and descending
bikes are a menace. I always take the adjacent road when on a bike.


Many of our routes are not park routes but for cyclists with a purpose,
folks who commute or have another set destination like I often do. Many
bike path started to flourish in this area around 10 years ago and
initially pedestrians walked willy-nilly. Now they largely stick to the
rule "walk left" which makes things easy. These paths connect
residential areas to business parks and I often cycle through on of
those. Lunchtime walkers are almost professionals when it comes to trail
etiquette.

It's funny, after a while one recognizes each other. Oh, the guy with
the Fedora and the electric cigarette is already this far? I must be late!

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #63  
Old March 16th 18, 07:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,271
Default New bike path

On 3/13/2018 3:58 PM, Joerg wrote:

The other solution is to starve the beast (big government).


Speaking of starving the beast:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gop-confr...-election.html

And of course
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...622-story.html


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #64  
Old March 16th 18, 07:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,723
Default New bike path

On 3/16/2018 2:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/13/2018 3:58 PM, Joerg wrote:

The other solution is to starve the beast (big government).


Speaking of starving the beast:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gop-confr...-election.html


And of course
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...622-story.html




Right. Neither austerity nor profligacy helps:
http://amp.sacbee.com/news/business/...204345249.html
We're just doomed either way.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #65  
Old March 16th 18, 08:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,365
Default New bike path

On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 8:27:05 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-15 17:55, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 1:16:28 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-15 12:31, Duane wrote:
On 15/03/2018 12:30 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/15/2018 11:23 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/15/2018 8:47 AM, Duane wrote:
On 14/03/2018 9:09 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:36:45 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

If you provide proper infrastructure they will come:

That's the second time this week that I've cackled aloud
while sitting at the computer.

I don't *do* that sort of thing.


I rarely use segregated paths but there is a ride I like to
do from my house in Montreal West Island area to the old
port. It's ~100k and really nice. About 80k of it is on
bike paths. These paths follow the river and then the
Lachine canal so there are basically no intersections.Â
Along the canal where the path crosses city streets the
path has under or overpasses.

Here's the thing. I take the day off work on my birthday
and do this ride with some friends because there's no one
on the paths outside of the commute hours. At commute
time it's too crowded. On weekends and holidays it's
packed.

So I guess my point is that if they make these things
people use them. In Montreal, a lot of people use them.Â
Whether or not they make sense for commuters is another
story. And group riding on bike paths is a bad idea in
any case if the paths aren't empty.

Most of us probably enjoy a segregated path that's
well-maintained, scenic, and mostly empty. Probably few of us
enjoy a MUP when it's seeing heavy use. And with good reason!
With widely varying users, narrow spaces and a "no rules"
environment, movements are often chaotic.

So Joerg should lobby for paths that will be unpopular,
because those make for the best riding. Of course, that's a
tough sell. Can you imagine asking for tax money for a new
freeway, by saying "It will be great! Hardly anyone will use
it!"

Nationwide, only a tiny percentage of these facilities can be
justified as shifting mode share from cars to bikes. Despite
the cherry-picked examples, most miles of MUP connect nowhere
to nowhere, for obvious reasons.

So almost all are linear parks, even though they're "sold" as
being transportation facilities. They should be paid for from
park taxes, not federal or state transportation tax dollars.


Some citizens use and appreciate them, just not for cycling:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=assault+on...th&t=hg&ia=web


Well my point was that even though some of us don't use crowded
segregated paths, the fact that they are crowded indicates that
many people do use them.


Last Sunday it was a joy to see a very full paved section of the
El Dorado Trail from Placerville to Camino (California). It seems
that the New Year's resolutions of many people have stuck this
year.

Yeah, we can all complain about having to slow down for kids, dogs
or slow riders. Yet for some reason cyclists who complain about
that do not complain if they spend minutes in slow traffic behind a
crawling conga line of trucks.


I complain if I have to sit in slow traffic, but the beauty of being
on a bike is that I rarely have to do that, except where passing is
impossible. Bicycles may permissibly pass on the right when safe in
Oregon. I sit in traffic in the mornings, but I'm still making
better time than the cars and passing on either side when possible
and safe.


Until some day a passenger in an Uber or Lyft vehicle suddenly decides
he'll walk the rest and swings the door open with gusto.

I also pass on the right but then at slow speed and not like crazy
lane-splitting motorcyclists.



I see it this way: Every slow down is followed by an acceleration
event and that builds muscle. Plus I might get to pet a dog or
encourage a kid on a tricycle to keep on mashing the pedals. It
means a lot to them when an adult says "Good job!".


Out of curiosity, do you have kids?



Unfortunately not.


... Half of them will think you're a
creep or just in their way. The other half might think you're mildly
amusing. Kids are accustomed to hearing "good job" -- little Jimmy
on the trike probably hears it ten times a day. It's not like he's
going to ride over to his parents and say, "geepers, mom and dad,
that creepy man over there said I did a good job! That makes me feel
so good! It means a lot to me!"



My experience is different. Mostly it elicited a big smile, maybe
because this did not come from a parent or close relative. Also, in the
more rural regions of America kids are often brought up the
old-fashioned way, with proper expectations of them and without
pampering or excessive praise.


Rural? Cameron Park? https://www.trulia.com/p/ca/cameron-...82--2085622330 I'm sure the milk cows are around back.

It's also good to praise a horse or a dog for good trail etiquette. They
often notice it favorably and it costs the cyclist nothing. One rider
thanked me saying "Sam really likes that".


Yes, because the owner can read the horse's mind. I'm going to start an institute with the sole purpose of stamping out anthropomorphism. It prevents us from really understanding animals. https://www.marketingfirst.co.nz/wp-...-dogs-hear.jpg



... In reality, dealing with kids on
trikes on a MUP is usually just a matter of giving them a wide berth.



I do that regardless.


It's kind of like dealing with squirrels -- well, strike that. I'll
run over squirrels.


I don't like hitting animals, ever. Couldn't avoid running over some
though, squirrels and ... rattlesnakes. Once almost a deer but he'd have
won.


Yah, I'm not aiming for the squirrels, but I'm certainly not going over the bars for them -- not unless they get stuck in my spokes.

Linear parks are fine and some can be useful travel routes for bikes,
but mixing bikes and walkers always results in a sub-optimal
experience for both -- particularly when you have parents with
walkers, dogs and kids on trikes (common around here) and sometimes
steep grades. I walk and ride the same local trail, and descending
bikes are a menace. I always take the adjacent road when on a bike.


Many of our routes are not park routes but for cyclists with a purpose,
folks who commute or have another set destination like I often do. Many
bike path started to flourish in this area around 10 years ago and
initially pedestrians walked willy-nilly. Now they largely stick to the
rule "walk left" which makes things easy. These paths connect
residential areas to business parks and I often cycle through on of
those. Lunchtime walkers are almost professionals when it comes to trail
etiquette.


Like I said, some of these routes provide valuable options for riders -- but they are options. Roads are the rule, and people need to learn to ride on roads -- and everybody needs to learn the rules of the road for his or her state.

-- Jay Beattie.



  #66  
Old March 16th 18, 09:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,506
Default New bike path

On 2018-03-16 13:19, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 8:27:05 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-15 17:55, jbeattie wrote:


[...]


... Half of them will think you're a creep or just in their way.
The other half might think you're mildly amusing. Kids are
accustomed to hearing "good job" -- little Jimmy on the trike
probably hears it ten times a day. It's not like he's going to
ride over to his parents and say, "geepers, mom and dad, that
creepy man over there said I did a good job! That makes me feel
so good! It means a lot to me!"



My experience is different. Mostly it elicited a big smile, maybe
because this did not come from a parent or close relative. Also, in
the more rural regions of America kids are often brought up the
old-fashioned way, with proper expectations of them and without
pampering or excessive praise.


Rural? Cameron Park?
https://www.trulia.com/p/ca/cameron-...82--2085622330



If you look hard enough you can find a McMansion just about anywhere. We
even have one on our street. Totally out of place for this village.

I meant he

https://cdn-assets.alltrails.com/upl...f1253dc7d6.jpg


I'm sure the milk cows are around back.


I meet them along the El Dorado Trail all the time. Sometimes on the
trail when one got out. Also goats, et cetera. Occasionally we have to
play herder with our mountain bikes.


It's also good to praise a horse or a dog for good trail etiquette.
They often notice it favorably and it costs the cyclist nothing.
One rider thanked me saying "Sam really likes that".


Yes, because the owner can read the horse's mind.



No, but their reactions. For example, most people do not know that
horses can purr if they are feeling really happy. One of my horse
friends already did that when I said "Ivan, do you want some carrots?",
before opening the pannier. Unfortunately he died at around 21 years old
from Cushing's disease :-(

The horse that took his place isn't nearly as communicative but also
likes carrots.


... I'm going to start
an institute with the sole purpose of stamping out anthropomorphism.
It prevents us from really understanding animals.
https://www.marketingfirst.co.nz/wp-...-dogs-hear.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04


... In reality, dealing with kids on trikes on a MUP is usually
just a matter of giving them a wide berth.



I do that regardless.


It's kind of like dealing with squirrels -- well, strike that.
I'll run over squirrels.


I don't like hitting animals, ever. Couldn't avoid running over
some though, squirrels and ... rattlesnakes. Once almost a deer but
he'd have won.


Yah, I'm not aiming for the squirrels, but I'm certainly not going
over the bars for them -- not unless they get stuck in my spokes.


Which has happened here, with nasty consequences.


Linear parks are fine and some can be useful travel routes for
bikes, but mixing bikes and walkers always results in a
sub-optimal experience for both -- particularly when you have
parents with walkers, dogs and kids on trikes (common around
here) and sometimes steep grades. I walk and ride the same local
trail, and descending bikes are a menace. I always take the
adjacent road when on a bike.


Many of our routes are not park routes but for cyclists with a
purpose, folks who commute or have another set destination like I
often do. Many bike path started to flourish in this area around 10
years ago and initially pedestrians walked willy-nilly. Now they
largely stick to the rule "walk left" which makes things easy.
These paths connect residential areas to business parks and I often
cycle through on of those. Lunchtime walkers are almost
professionals when it comes to trail etiquette.


Like I said, some of these routes provide valuable options for riders
-- but they are options. Roads are the rule, and people need to
learn to ride on roads -- and everybody needs to learn the rules of
the road for his or her state.


People generally know the rules because they are also car drivers.
However, I found that the vast majority of cylists abhors using roads on
their bicycles so much that they simply don't. This reluctance is not
based on some undefined fear but on accident reports and experiences of
friends and relatives who got hit.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #67  
Old March 16th 18, 09:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,271
Default New bike path

On 3/16/2018 4:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 8:27:05 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

It's also good to praise a horse or a dog for good trail etiquette. They
often notice it favorably and it costs the cyclist nothing. One rider
thanked me saying "Sam really likes that".


Yes, because the owner can read the horse's mind. I'm going to start an institute with the sole purpose of stamping out anthropomorphism. It prevents us from really understanding animals. https://www.marketingfirst.co.nz/wp-...-dogs-hear.jpg


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5e/6b...2d480c6e1d.jpg


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #68  
Old March 17th 18, 08:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default New bike path

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:36:45 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-13 18:08, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 13:26:50 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-13 13:21, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/13/2018 2:58 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-13 12:23, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 7:36:16 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

[...]


Scramento has a huge homeless problem and especially so
along the
American River bike path. To the point where it isn't
always safe
riding there anymore. It is largely a homemade problem.
The mayor
they have now doesn't understand that with all his
throwing moeny
and resources at this he is enticing ever more homeless
to move to
Sacramento. Free stuff! When he started this I could
notice a
substantial drop in the number of homeless I see along
the El
Dorado Trail yet the guy does not get it.

I've been buying bus tickets to Sacramento for the dudes
camped along
our giant MUP, the Springwater Corridor. I'm glad to see
its paying
off -- that and the periodic "sweeps."
http://pamplinmedia.com/go/42-news/3...ingwater-sweep



I was riding back from the Gorge on Sunday and cut over
on the 205
bike path and hit a spot under an over-pass where I could
barely
squeeze by all the tents -- and garbage and needles, etc.,
etc.
F****** incredible pigsty.

Let me know if you come up with a solution. I sure don't
have one --
at least one that doesn't sound like something out of the Old
Testament, or perhaps a modern book on recycling organic
matter.


The solution would be our country becoming more
conservative. Work requirements for welfare, less
unconditional free stuff, and so on. The difference in the
rate of homelessness in liberal versus conservative states
is striking and Oregon looks worse than even California
(which I hadn't thought was possible).

http://nlihc.org/article/ten-highest...ess-state-2012



Nevada is kind of an exception, probably because a lot of
hermits and loners live there. They chose that lifestyle and
the low amount of regulations and little enforcement allows
them to spend their days baking in a dilapidated trailer out
in the desert.

The other solution is to starve the beast (big government).
High tax states make housing so expensive that too many
people are forced to drop out into the streets. California
is a prime example of that. Try getting a building permit
out here, let alone pay for it. Socialism does not work.



Who are you and what have you done with The Real Joerg, who likes high
taxes for expensive elaborate kiddy paths paid for by the long suffering
working man?


I never liked high taxes. All I want is that taxes are invested wisely.
Investment in bikes paths and bike lanes is wise, investment in a bullet
train to nowhere is not.


I see, you feel that building expensive bike paths for an almost
infinitesimal portion of the road users is wise investment?


It is, because

1. They are not expensive. The bullet train just went to $68B and I am
sure when t's all said and done it will be north of $150B or a whole
year's state budget.

2. The number is not infinitesimal. If you provide proper infrastructure
they will come:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipfuxptI2uU


After all, bicycles comprise about 2% of all road accidents and
studies I've seen state that nation wide bicycles make up about 1% of
the total traffic.

Doesn't spend substantial portions of the tax budget on a group that
comprises only 1% of the road users seem a bit one sided?


So why don't we start by spending 1%? That's plenty.


From what you write it appears that you believe that if only someone
would build bicycle paths that the percentage of bicycle traffic would
rise and I'm not sure that is correct at all. Or perhaps not correct
is assumed to be an all encompassing argument.

I recently read an article about cycling in the Netherlands. The
number of cyclists in the large cities is increasing but in rural
areas it is decreasing. Given that Holland has perhaps the largest
amount of cycle paths (compared with motorways) and rural bicycle use
is decreasing the argument that building bikeways is going to result
in some significant increase in cycle use is probably wishful
thinking.

It is probably also worth saying that the percentage of trips made by
Dutch cyclists is 27% of all trips and the number has remained static
for the past 30 years.

In closing let me say that one of my high school classmates took his
girl to the Junior Prom in his Dad's dump truck (there is a long story
there) but no one in living memory ever took his girl to the prom on a
bicycle :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #69  
Old March 17th 18, 08:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default New bike path

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 21:19:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/14/2018 5:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-14 14:18, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/14/2018 1:07 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-14 09:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:

(You remain the only person I've ever heard of who somehow believes
U.C.
Davis does not restrict motor vehicle use.)


Because they don't. I was there a lot on business and due to the
distance and the need to schlepp heavy stuff had to use an SUV. Not
the slightest problem.

"Restrict motor vehicle use" does not mean "No motor vehicle is ever
allowed through." The campus I taught in allowed no motor vehicles in
its central core - except, of course, when it was necessary to allow an
emergency vehicle, a utility repair truck, a heavy delivery, etc.
Allowing one SUV driver schlepping something is far different from
letting anyone drive wherever they want.

*From
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...th-the-bicycle



"The campus, cheek-by-jowl with the city, is car-free."



I have told you before that that is fake news. Simply repeating it does
not make it any less fake.


************************************************** **** ... [Yes, as
explained above, it's not 100% car free. Everyone else gets the idea.]

"Car-use was restricted on campus, with drop-down barriers and a ban on
student car ownership (this is still in force)."

*From http://taps.ucdavis.edu/bicycle/education/community

"The University followed suit by banning almost all motor vehicle use
from its central core roadways that were formerly open to motor traffic
from off campus."


They do not.


Yeah, yeah, fake news. Who are you going to believe, professional
journalists who have no strong agendas? Or one guy on the internet who
wants to spend public money to turn America into Amsterdam?

That also refers to their experience with now-so-trendy "protected bike
lanes":

"Because Davis pioneered the bike lane and other bicycle facilities in
this country, it is not surprising that some "experiments" were less
successful than others. One such example was the construction of
"protected" bike lanes where motor vehicle and bicycle traffic was
separated by a raised "buffer" or curbing. In some cases, the bike lane
was established between the parking shoulder and the curb line (i.e.
cars were parked on the left of the bike traffic lane). Needless to say,
any "benefits" of such facilities were soon found to be outweighed by
the many hazards created for their users."


We all know that there were a lot of messed up bike path and bike lane
designs. Davis is no exception. Time has progressed, people have
learned, even traffic engineers.


Some people have not learned, such as the countless "bike advocates" who
are claiming we MUST have "protected cycle tracks" everywhere because
nothing else is safe enough. Oh, and then there are people who get paid
as consultants, marching into a city and offering to design that
garbage. They may have learned, but they don't care. "It is difficult to
get a man to understand something when his job depends on not
understanding it." - Upton Sinclair.

The advocates and the traffic engineers showed what they had learned by
the design of the Columbus "protected cycle track" completed a couple
years ago. After the cycle track went in, the crash rate increased over
600%. Oddly enough, Streetsblog and other pro-segregation propaganda
sources don't highlight that fact.

So these things were found to be dangerous in the 1970s. They're still
dangerous in the 2010s. Forty years, and still the know-nothings demand
them.


I suggest that a sure method of determining the necessity for bike
paths would be to add a motion to the next town/city election -
something like "auto traffic shall be here after totally banned in an
area bounded by Main Street, North Bridge Road, Sunset Boulevard and
the river, i.e. the "business district", during daylight hours", and
count the votes for and against the motion.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #70  
Old March 17th 18, 03:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,506
Default New bike path

On 2018-03-17 01:28, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:36:45 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-13 18:08, John B. wrote:



[...]

After all, bicycles comprise about 2% of all road accidents and
studies I've seen state that nation wide bicycles make up about 1% of
the total traffic.

Doesn't spend substantial portions of the tax budget on a group that
comprises only 1% of the road users seem a bit one sided?


So why don't we start by spending 1%? That's plenty.


From what you write it appears that you believe that if only someone
would build bicycle paths that the percentage of bicycle traffic would
rise and I'm not sure that is correct at all.



I know that it works in most areas. It is clearly evidenced by the
reaction of people. Instead of "Nah, I am not going to join you cycling
back on Green Valley Road" (this is one of my usual rounds) they say
"Oh, there is a bike path? How about Sunday afternoon?". Other times I
talked with client engineers when I visited. Many times they have bike
racks on their cars and helmets in the trunk. Those are the real outdoor
kind of people, the ones where it's not just talk. However, then they
say they'd love to cycle to work but the bike path system doesn't
connect there.


... Or perhaps not correct
is assumed to be an all encompassing argument.


There will always be areas where it doesn't work or, like in Milton
Keynes, the design gets largely messed up and then people don't use it.
Other places might have too much inclement weather. For example, I doubt
one would get a lot of people onto bikes in a town in Northern Siberia.


I recently read an article about cycling in the Netherlands. The
number of cyclists in the large cities is increasing but in rural
areas it is decreasing. Given that Holland has perhaps the largest
amount of cycle paths (compared with motorways) and rural bicycle use
is decreasing the argument that building bikeways is going to result
in some significant increase in cycle use is probably wishful
thinking.


Absolutely not. I lived there for years. Though this has been decades
ago they probably have a similar trend as we do in the US where many
kids aren't interested in any sort of transportation. They don't even
want to achieve a driver's license. Probably because the virtual world
and smart phones are sufficient for them. I can't understand it.

You also have to keep in mind that they have a substantial public
transport system. In essence many people wouldn't need any kind of vehicle.


It is probably also worth saying that the percentage of trips made by
Dutch cyclists is 27% of all trips and the number has remained static
for the past 30 years.


I guess the number of available bike path kilometers has also largely
remained constant. When I lived in the Netherlands in the 80's the bike
path system was rather complete. They did add some bicycle highways but
most of those had already been there in large stretches, just with the
fluff and signage. For example, I cycles the F35 bike highway route a
lot because I couldn't stand the soft Dutch bread. It got me close
enough to ther German border to hop over and buy some real bread. Tens
of miles just for a loaf of bread was not a big deal over there because
I more of less put my bike in 12th gear and kept pedaling until I was
there. It was the same down south where my permanent residence was,
cycling to Maastricht for a beer and some cheese was a simple spur of
the moment decision. 20mi or 30km each way but easy peasy because all
bike path. In fact, it was so peaceful versus lane riding that I once
fell into "micro-sleep" on the road bike on the way back. A tree woke me
up the hard way ...


In closing let me say that one of my high school classmates took his
girl to the Junior Prom in his Dad's dump truck (there is a long story
there) but no one in living memory ever took his girl to the prom on a
bicycle :-)


Well ...

http://tubulocity.com/?p=118

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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