Tracking problem

Badger South (who?) writes:

Remind me of what bike you ride? I'd like to look at a comparable
pic to see the top tube geometry.

Specialized Sequoia Expert, 2003. Sloping top tube.

http://tinyurl.com/65zo5

When you gently push the bike forward by holding under the back edge
of the seat, palm up, does it track (roll forward) straight without
too much effort? If it does, I believe that's a good sign. If it
doesn't, gee it may be user error.

"without too much effort" is vague. Effort for whom? Unless the head
bearing is bound up, I'm sure I could manage it even if there were no
balls in the head bearing.

My brother's bike when pushed forwards like this goes straight (he's
got the same model, but two grades lower), and as you walk faster,
it continues to do this. Mine a few inches, feet at the most, the
h/b flop to one side or the other. Even if you gently angle or rock
the bike ever so slightly to the opposing side to gentle it into
staying straight, as soon as you do this it flops completely to
-that- side. Don't even try to walk briskly with it. Given that I
can walk his and not mine makes me think it's not me.

If you say it flops randomly to one side or another and easily, then
it seems to be operator error. If it flopped to the same side
regularly I can imagine too short a shift cable or brake cable routing
but you say it has no preference. Speed generally make this exercise
easier and more stable.

Are you sure you aren't putting us on? This is a difficult picture to
imagine. How about the free rotation test? Was the bicycle crashed
and bent the steertube or headtube. In that case there could be
internal interference between steertube and headtube. The swing test
would reveal that but an experienced eye could catch it better just by
looking at the side view of the bicycle.

I notice the fork has a curled offset and therefore the fork legs
should be a straight line extension of the stem and headtube. If
that is not the case, the steertube is bent. How did you crash when
you broke your hip? Was it on this bicycle?

Jobst Brandt

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 04:55:09 GMT, wrote:

If you say it flops randomly to one side or another and easily, then
it seems to be operator error. If it flopped to the same side
regularly I can imagine too short a shift cable or brake cable routing
but you say it has no preference. Speed generally make this exercise
easier and more stable.

Are you sure you aren't putting us on? This is a difficult picture to
imagine. How about the free rotation test?

Was the bicycle crashed
and bent the steertube or headtube. In that case there could be
internal interference between steertube and headtube. The swing test
would reveal that but an experienced eye could catch it better just by
looking at the side view of the bicycle.

The bike fell over at low speed one time, but didn't hit the ground hard.
The bike has never tracked straight. I've tried to roll others' bikes by
the back of the saddle and they all rolled straight.

I notice the fork has a curled offset and therefore the fork legs
should be a straight line extension of the stem and headtube. If

The sequoia is not my bike, that's Mr. Zoul's bike.

that is not the case, the steertube is bent.
How did you crash when you broke your hip?

I kept a fellow employee from being killed by grabbing and holding up a
heavy dury laboratory refrigerator. The lower back and possibly the hip
developed sciatica and piriformis syndrome that has resisted rehab. B/c of
this I prefer to have mechanical or tire replacement work done by someone
else.

Was it on this bicycle?
No bicycle was involved. The hip was not broke.


Jobst Brandt

"Roger Zoul" wrote in message
...
Peter Cole wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" wrote
||
||| Well, it's your opinion. I'm of the opinion that if I need to
||| stretch or eat or whatever, I'll get off the bike. I'm not a pro so
||| there's no need to do other things while riding. I don't need the
||| hassle of getting hurt needlessly. Income to protect,
||| responsibilities, etc. YMMV.
||
|| There's nothing particularly hazardous about riding no-hands. It's a
|| useful skill, too. The only time I don't do it is when I'm in a pace
|| line. I don't use aerobars then, either. I think they're pretty
|| equivalent. I'll sometimes ride a 30 mile loop entirely in the
|| aerobars. I did it once no-handed just to see if I could.

You road a 30-mile loop no-handed?

I *rode* a 30 mile *road* loop no-handed, yes. I was bored, doing the same
loop 3 times, just to pack some mileage before an upcoming ultra-ride. It
was early on a Saturday morning in a suburban area, so there wasn't much
traffic about. Not that it would have made much difference. A prior post
compares riding no-hands to riding downhill at 35 mph. I do those things
together fairly often (yes, 35 mph no-hands).

I don't mean to give the impression that I'm reckless, I'm not. I've never
had a bike crash in 10's of Kmiles and many years of all kinds of riding. I
don't think it's all luck. I do a lot of club riding and find many other
members to be absolutely horrible riders, to the point I won't ride with
them. Funny thing is that they don't seem to realize how bad they are. This
year, among them, there have been several serious crashes. I think this
year's count is 6 or so, hospital time, broken bones, etc. One poor guy
suffered a broken neck and is now paralyzed neck-down.

Riding is serious business. The guy with the broken neck was left-hooked.
Everybody should worry about that, that's much scarier than riding
no-hands. I recommend reading the statistics and/or the better studies.
Learn what the real hazards are. Pay attention, learn from any close calls,
think about how to avoid them in the future.

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 11:47:55 GMT, "Peter Cole"
wrote:

"Roger Zoul" wrote in message
...
Peter Cole wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" wrote
||
||| Well, it's your opinion. I'm of the opinion that if I need to
||| stretch or eat or whatever, I'll get off the bike. I'm not a pro so
||| there's no need to do other things while riding. I don't need the
||| hassle of getting hurt needlessly. Income to protect,
||| responsibilities, etc. YMMV.
||
|| There's nothing particularly hazardous about riding no-hands. It's a
|| useful skill, too. The only time I don't do it is when I'm in a pace
|| line. I don't use aerobars then, either. I think they're pretty
|| equivalent. I'll sometimes ride a 30 mile loop entirely in the
|| aerobars. I did it once no-handed just to see if I could.

You road a 30-mile loop no-handed?

I *rode* a 30 mile *road* loop no-handed, yes. I was bored, doing the same
loop 3 times, just to pack some mileage before an upcoming ultra-ride. It
was early on a Saturday morning in a suburban area, so there wasn't much
traffic about. Not that it would have made much difference. A prior post
compares riding no-hands to riding downhill at 35 mph. I do those things
together fairly often (yes, 35 mph no-hands).

I don't mean to give the impression that I'm reckless, I'm not. I've never
had a bike crash in 10's of Kmiles and many years of all kinds of riding. I
don't think it's all luck. I do a lot of club riding and find many other
members to be absolutely horrible riders, to the point I won't ride with
them. Funny thing is that they don't seem to realize how bad they are. This
year, among them, there have been several serious crashes. I think this
year's count is 6 or so, hospital time, broken bones, etc. One poor guy
suffered a broken neck and is now paralyzed neck-down.

Riding is serious business. The guy with the broken neck was left-hooked.
Everybody should worry about that, that's much scarier than riding
no-hands. I recommend reading the statistics and/or the better studies.
Learn what the real hazards are. Pay attention, learn from any close calls,
think about how to avoid them in the future.

I'm always trying to be a better bike handler, and I only have some idea at
how badly I suck at it. I can ride some pretty snappy rides, but I still
have problems riding steadily, and have not learned how to do things like
throw an empty water bottle into a trash can without bobbling my straight
line. (I know, pretty sad) The other day I came up upon a sitch in traffic
and thought to myself, 'man I could have eaten it there. A little voice in
my head sez: "to a pro rider, that wouldn't even have rated a comment and
he/she would have ridden right around that on auto". Yep.

There is one place in my route where it takes a hard right and then is
blocked with posts about 2 feet apart, then a road, then the same posts,
and you're supposed to get off the bike and walk it across (or this is the
gist I get). I ride between them. I'm able to do it pretty well with no
bobbles but it still creeps me out b/c of the sharp turn you have to make
to get in on the other side where the corridor to turn left and continue is
narrow. I should be able to ride right through there smoothly.

So, fellow noobs, if you're not doing it, folks, may I suggest working on
bike handling. Watch how smooth and steady the pros ride in the peloton,
even no-handed. Now it -is- ludicrous to compare one's self to the
pros...after all you wouldn't be doing MS Flight Sim and comparing yourself
to Chuck Yeager...but you can see what a great bike handler looks like
riding. Take clinics, get your cycling club to give them in the park where
it's grassy, learn how to recover from near-falls, etc. Getting in the
miles and developing the stamina is not the only goal. Find a challenging
trail with obstacles and stuff and practice there.

Thx Peter, good post.

-B

"Badger_South" wrote

So, fellow noobs, if you're not doing it, folks, may I suggest working on
bike handling. Watch how smooth and steady the pros ride in the peloton,
even no-handed. Now it -is- ludicrous to compare one's self to the
pros...after all you wouldn't be doing MS Flight Sim and comparing
yourself
to Chuck Yeager...but you can see what a great bike handler looks like
riding. Take clinics, get your cycling club to give them in the park
where
it's grassy, learn how to recover from near-falls, etc. Getting in the
miles and developing the stamina is not the only goal. Find a challenging
trail with obstacles and stuff and practice there.

I'm not sure that it makes sense for a newb to advise other newbs. Bike
handling skills are great to have, but it's not the thing that saves your
hide usually, good habits are. Handling is about reflexes, those take a
long time to train. Habits are about education, the "do's & don'ts" of
riding. The best way to develop reflexes is to exercise them doing things
like MTB riding, you encounter situations there continuously that happen
only once in a blue moon on the road/path. After learning effective
braking, new cyclists are much better off spending time learning which
hazards are most important and how to avoid them. There are excellent
on-line guides for riding in traffic, there are also studies that summarize
the causes of crashes, both on the road and on bike paths. Bicycling isn't
a particularly dangerous activity, but the odds can be still greatly
improved by avoiding bad habits. Unfortunately, those habits often aren't
obvious or intuitive.

I had a close call a few years back when a car pulled out of a stopped line
of left-turners as I passed on the right (2 lanes, I was going straight).
The pavement was wet, I braked, my rear wheel skidded, and I almost went
down. I'm sure that if I hadn't done so much MTB riding I would have not
recovered from the skid. I'm also sure that MTB braking skills had helped
me panic stop without (almost) skidding badly. I had 2 similar experiences,
one where I skidded (rear) across the width of a manhole cover (wet road,
night, reverse camber, fast curve), another on freshly painted median
stripes (rain, fast curve, winding road). In all 3 cases my reflexes
prevented crashes, but better habits would have prevented the situations
from arising at all.

Peter Cole wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote in message
:: ...
::: Peter Cole wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote
:::::
:::::: Well, it's your opinion. I'm of the opinion that if I need to
:::::: stretch or eat or whatever, I'll get off the bike. I'm not a pro
:::::: so there's no need to do other things while riding. I don't
:::::: need the hassle of getting hurt needlessly. Income to protect,
:::::: responsibilities, etc. YMMV.
:::::
::::: There's nothing particularly hazardous about riding no-hands.
::::: It's a useful skill, too. The only time I don't do it is when I'm
::::: in a pace line. I don't use aerobars then, either. I think
::::: they're pretty equivalent. I'll sometimes ride a 30 mile loop
::::: entirely in the aerobars. I did it once no-handed just to see if
::::: I could.
:::
::: You road a 30-mile loop no-handed?
::
:: I *rode* a 30 mile *road* loop no-handed, yes.

Sorry about the typo....I've got a head cold that won't quit!

I am also in awe!

I was bored, doing
:: the same loop 3 times, just to pack some mileage before an upcoming
:: ultra-ride. It was early on a Saturday morning in a suburban area,
:: so there wasn't much traffic about. Not that it would have made much
:: difference. A prior post compares riding no-hands to riding downhill
:: at 35 mph. I do those things together fairly often (yes, 35 mph
:: no-hands).

I'm impressed.

::
:: I don't mean to give the impression that I'm reckless, I'm not. I've
:: never had a bike crash in 10's of Kmiles and many years of all kinds
:: of riding. I don't think it's all luck. I do a lot of club riding
:: and find many other members to be absolutely horrible riders, to the
:: point I won't ride with them. Funny thing is that they don't seem to
:: realize how bad they are. This year, among them, there have been
:: several serious crashes. I think this year's count is 6 or so,
:: hospital time, broken bones, etc. One poor guy suffered a broken
:: neck and is now paralyzed neck-down.
::
:: Riding is serious business. The guy with the broken neck was
:: left-hooked. Everybody should worry about that, that's much scarier
:: than riding no-hands. I recommend reading the statistics and/or the
:: better studies. Learn what the real hazards are. Pay attention,
:: learn from any close calls, think about how to avoid them in the
:: future.

Good advice. In the left-hook case, was it with another rider or a car?

BTW, I never had the impression that you were reckless. I think I'm going
to work on learning to ride with no hands. I'm sure I can do it (I used to
do it all the time as a kid), but after I went clipless I just felt it more
prudent to not bother.

"Roger Zoul" wrote

I'm impressed.

As Jobst often points out, no-hands becomes easier the faster you go.

Good advice. In the left-hook case, was it with another rider or a car?

It was another car. The road was a typical secondary road around here
(Boston) with a lot of cross streets. Besides this crash, there have been 2
similar left hooks in the immediate vicinity where the cyclists were killed
in the past couple of years. Left hooks are one of the most dangerous
scenarios because of the high closing speeds. Right hooks are less often as
serious except where trucks/buses are involved, unfortunately we've had a
bunch of those, too.

In this crash, the cyclist struck the side of the vehicle. I'm not sure,
but my guess would be that he never saw the car. I don't know if it was a
"but for the grace of God go I" situation, or if greater attention could
have prevented it. My attitude is that if an oncoming car can left turn
into my path, sooner or later one will, ditto for an overtaking car turning
right, ditto for a car pulling out from a side street. Anticipating the
worst-case has saved my bacon many times, I'm sure it won't in every case,
but the close calls are rare enough that I trust the odds.

Badger_South wrote:

The other day I came up upon a sitch in traffic
and thought to myself, 'man I could have eaten it there. A little voice in
my head sez: "to a pro rider, that wouldn't even have rated a comment and
he/she would have ridden right around that on auto". Yep.

Emulating a pro's bike handling is not the best idea. Pros crash a
lot.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Peter Cole wrote:

As Jobst often points out, no-hands becomes easier the faster you go.

I'll ride no-hands when putting on or taking off a jacket. This is a
very useful skill that needs to be practiced. But I wish I could get
better a riding no-hands uphill. I can do it on a gentle grade, but
it gets increasingly difficult as the steepness increases.

Taking off layers on a climb is a necessity, but it's not easy to do
with at least one hand on the bars. 10 mph seems to be the limit,
below that riding no-hands is tough.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/