Cartridge bearings

On 5/21/2016 6:13 PM, John B. wrote:

I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description said
"HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing".

I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings. Is
there such a thing and can anyone point me to one?


Not new or rare at all. The original Chris King headset
(around 1982 or so?) was 1" threaded BSC with cartridge
inserts. That's still a current product at CK, BTW.

Here's a current model by Tange:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd16dc1.jpg

They exist in 1" BSC threaded and also 1" AH threadless

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"Joerg" wrote in message
...
On 2016-05-21 23:14, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:26:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-21 16:13, John B. wrote:

I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description said
"HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing".

I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings. Is
there such a thing and can anyone point me to one?


Voila:

http://www.amazon.com/Origin8-Pro-Th.../dp/B002J97EGS

Interesting. I had never seen one.


I was thinking about replacing my miserable Shimano 600 contraption with
one of these. Mine always shakes loose on rough roads.

Around the 80s or 90s, aftermarket taper roller headset bearings were all
the rage for motorcycles.

At the time, they were heavily advertised as the must have accesory.

On 5/22/2016 11:40 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-05-22 07:26, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 11:15:48 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:47:01 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 4:13:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description
said "HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing".

I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings.
Is there such a thing and can anyone point me to one?


Basically every 1" Shimano road headset after what, about 1990?
Sir should know.

-- Jay Beattie

Oh! Modern Bikes? I've never owned one :-) -- cheers,

John B.

Jobst noted that Shimano licensed its angular-contact cartridge
bearing from Wilderness Trail, which I guess was a tribute to that
company. http://yarchive.net/bike/head_bearing.html


Interesting. I wonder why Jobst dismissed the notion of "my chain
stretched from climbing steep hills". It's something I clearly
experienced in Europe. When riding flatlands a chain could easily last
3000mi. When I rode in the hills of East Belgium I was lucky if I got
2000mi. Lots of mashing.

Jobst was an engineer who clearly understood thing like forces,
stresses, yield strength, etc. Even a dim understanding of those
principles allows one to understand you're not stretching the metal of
the chain.

Jobst was also excellent at understanding detailed interactions of
various mechanical components, and he was better than most engineers at
tribology. That allowed him to understand what many people call chain
"stretch."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2016-05-22 14:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/22/2016 11:40 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-05-22 07:26, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 11:15:48 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:47:01 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 4:13:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description
said "HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing".

I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings.
Is there such a thing and can anyone point me to one?


Basically every 1" Shimano road headset after what, about 1990?
Sir should know.

-- Jay Beattie

Oh! Modern Bikes? I've never owned one :-) -- cheers,

John B.

Jobst noted that Shimano licensed its angular-contact cartridge
bearing from Wilderness Trail, which I guess was a tribute to that
company. http://yarchive.net/bike/head_bearing.html


Interesting. I wonder why Jobst dismissed the notion of "my chain
stretched from climbing steep hills". It's something I clearly
experienced in Europe. When riding flatlands a chain could easily last
3000mi. When I rode in the hills of East Belgium I was lucky if I got
2000mi. Lots of mashing.

Jobst was an engineer who clearly understood thing like forces,
stresses, yield strength, etc. Even a dim understanding of those
principles allows one to understand you're not stretching the metal of
the chain.


Where did I say that?


Jobst was also excellent at understanding detailed interactions of
various mechanical components, and he was better than most engineers at
tribology. That allowed him to understand what many people call chain
"stretch."


So how do you explain the differences noticed above? Voodoo?
Extraterrestrial influence? Belgian beer?

Hint: These were always the same chains. I bought a large stack of them
in a bulk deal.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 5/22/2016 6:18 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-05-22 14:11, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/22/2016 11:40 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-05-22 07:26, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 11:15:48 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:47:01 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 4:13:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description
said "HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing".

I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings.
Is there such a thing and can anyone point me to one?


Basically every 1" Shimano road headset after what, about 1990?
Sir should know.

-- Jay Beattie

Oh! Modern Bikes? I've never owned one :-) -- cheers,

John B.

Jobst noted that Shimano licensed its angular-contact cartridge
bearing from Wilderness Trail, which I guess was a tribute to that
company. http://yarchive.net/bike/head_bearing.html


Interesting. I wonder why Jobst dismissed the notion of "my chain
stretched from climbing steep hills". It's something I clearly
experienced in Europe. When riding flatlands a chain could easily last
3000mi. When I rode in the hills of East Belgium I was lucky if I got
2000mi. Lots of mashing.

Jobst was an engineer who clearly understood thing like forces,
stresses, yield strength, etc. Even a dim understanding of those
principles allows one to understand you're not stretching the metal of
the chain.


Where did I say that?


Jobst was also excellent at understanding detailed interactions of
various mechanical components, and he was better than most engineers at
tribology. That allowed him to understand what many people call chain
"stretch."


So how do you explain the differences noticed above? Voodoo?
Extraterrestrial influence? Belgian beer?

Hint: These were always the same chains. I bought a large stack of them
in a bulk deal.

No voodoo necessary. Look into the effect of normal load on friction
and wear. Perhaps you could start with a physics book, then progress to
a book on the design of machine elements.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 22 May 2016 17:11:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/22/2016 11:40 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-05-22 07:26, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 11:15:48 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:47:01 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 4:13:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description
said "HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing".

I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings.
Is there such a thing and can anyone point me to one?


Basically every 1" Shimano road headset after what, about 1990?
Sir should know.

-- Jay Beattie

Oh! Modern Bikes? I've never owned one :-) -- cheers,

John B.

Jobst noted that Shimano licensed its angular-contact cartridge
bearing from Wilderness Trail, which I guess was a tribute to that
company. http://yarchive.net/bike/head_bearing.html


Interesting. I wonder why Jobst dismissed the notion of "my chain
stretched from climbing steep hills". It's something I clearly
experienced in Europe. When riding flatlands a chain could easily last
3000mi. When I rode in the hills of East Belgium I was lucky if I got
2000mi. Lots of mashing.

Jobst was an engineer who clearly understood thing like forces,
stresses, yield strength, etc. Even a dim understanding of those
principles allows one to understand you're not stretching the metal of
the chain.

Jobst was also excellent at understanding detailed interactions of
various mechanical components, and he was better than most engineers at
tribology. That allowed him to understand what many people call chain
"stretch."

I used to read Brandt's posts, but sometimes I thought he got carried
away with nomenclature. The "chain stretch" is an example. No, the
chain does not stretch, as in elastic band, but it does get longer, so
what do we say? "The chain elongates" is likely an accurate
description, but then we look in the dictionary and we find:

elongate - 1. make long or longer by pulling and stretching
stretch the fabric
:-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 22 May 2016 08:35:56 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-21 23:14, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:26:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-21 16:13, John B. wrote:

I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description said
"HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing".

I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings. Is
there such a thing and can anyone point me to one?


Voila:

http://www.amazon.com/Origin8-Pro-Th.../dp/B002J97EGS

Interesting. I had never seen one.


I was thinking about replacing my miserable Shimano 600 contraption with
one of these. Mine always shakes loose on rough roads.

I believe if I had that problem I would (1) buy a new quality head
set, and (2) have the top and bottom of the head tube reamed and faced
to ensure that the ends were exactly at right angle to the tube and
flat. And, that the head set races were properly installed using a
press of some sort. Not a BFH. (BFH's work but require more skill to
achieve a perfect installation)

Another thing, there is play in the steer tube threads and after the
threaded race is adjusted perfectly tightening lock nut will likely
change things.

I might comment that I have a Shimano 600 head set on one of my bikes
that has never come loose :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 22 May 2016 08:40:26 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-22 07:26, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 11:15:48 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:47:01 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 4:13:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I came across an advertisement for a frame and the description
said "HEADSET 1" cartridge bearing".

I have never seen a 1" head set that used "cartridge" bearings.
Is there such a thing and can anyone point me to one?


Basically every 1" Shimano road headset after what, about 1990?
Sir should know.

-- Jay Beattie

Oh! Modern Bikes? I've never owned one :-) -- cheers,

John B.

Jobst noted that Shimano licensed its angular-contact cartridge
bearing from Wilderness Trail, which I guess was a tribute to that
company. http://yarchive.net/bike/head_bearing.html


Interesting. I wonder why Jobst dismissed the notion of "my chain
stretched from climbing steep hills". It's something I clearly
experienced in Europe. When riding flatlands a chain could easily last
3000mi. When I rode in the hills of East Belgium I was lucky if I got
2000mi. Lots of mashing.

It is a matter of nomenclature. A chain doesn't stretch the way a
rubber band stretches. A chain elongates due to wear. But in
colloquial English the terms stretch and elongate are frequently used
interchangeably.

It might be said that when something stretches it does elongate but
when something elongates it doesn't necessarily stretch.

(Rather like, "a Beetle is always a bug, but a bug is not always a
beetle :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 23 May 2016 08:48:32 +0700, John B
wrote:

I used to read Brandt's posts, but sometimes I thought he got carried
away with nomenclature. The "chain stretch" is an example. No, the
chain does not stretch, as in elastic band, but it does get longer, so
what do we say?

We say what it is: chain wear. It's simple enough, why obfuscate it?
If we start people out with accurate concepts, they will understand much
more easily than if we tell then BS and they have to replace false
information with correct information. I think that was ulimately
Jobst's goal.

As regards greater chain wear in the mountains, the mechanics of that
are straightforward enough. Rear tires also wear faster when doing lots
of extended climbing.

I miss Jobst. And Sheldon. And Bruce Hildenbrant. Among others who no
longer post here for one reason or another.

On Sun, 22 May 2016 22:54:56 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Mon, 23 May 2016 08:48:32 +0700, John B
wrote:

I used to read Brandt's posts, but sometimes I thought he got carried
away with nomenclature. The "chain stretch" is an example. No, the
chain does not stretch, as in elastic band, but it does get longer, so
what do we say?

We say what it is: chain wear. It's simple enough, why obfuscate it?

Of course it is chain wear. But frankly few people actually are
completely descriptive in speaking. We say "bike" for bicycles and
motorcycles. Some people say "cool" meaning "calm self-control
(especially in trying circumstances) or unemotional" and others mean
it isn't warm. We say "post" meaning a stake in the ground or the
mail. And, and, and...

If we start people out with accurate concepts, they will understand much
more easily than if we tell then BS and they have to replace false
information with correct information. I think that was ulimately
Jobst's goal.

As regards greater chain wear in the mountains, the mechanics of that
are straightforward enough. Rear tires also wear faster when doing lots
of extended climbing.

I miss Jobst. And Sheldon. And Bruce Hildenbrant. Among others who no
longer post here for one reason or another.
--
cheers,

John B.