Do cyclists make better motorcyclists?

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

On 30 Aug 2004 11:03:35 -0700, (dw) wrote:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

Dear DW,

It depends on what kind of riding is involved and what kind
of skills. Bicycling skills help a little, but they aren't
going to make you a good motorcyclist.

Usually, we learn to ride bicycles as children and then
tackle more complicated machinery after we master the basic
trick of balancing as we roll along on two wheels.

Three things make motorcycles dangerously different from
bicycles: they have much trickier controls, they weigh far
more, and they have engines powerful enough to get you into
far worse trouble.

To ride a motorcycle in a straight line down the road and
stop it, you need to work the throttle with your right hand,
the clutch with your left hand, the gear shift with one
foot, and the front hand brake or the rear foot brake. Both
hands and at least one foot are busy working the controls.

Meanwhile, the rider is busy trying to balance a two-wheeled
vehicle that weighs more than he does. Imagine trying to
learn to ride a bicycle around a parking lot with Lance
Armstrong hog-tied across the rear panniers--well, actually,
Lance doesn't really weigh as much as a motorcycle, but you
get the idea.

A bicycle is so light that you can pick it up with one hand
instead of worrying about being unable to keep it from
falling over even with both hands. The sheer weight of the
motorcycle demands an entirely different attitude--you have
to worry about it getting stuck or falling over on you.

(No one is more embarrassed than a motorcyclist who has to
push his machine backwards out of an awkward downhill
spot--unless it's the same motorcyclist who has to ask for
help because his machine is too heavy and the slope is too
steep.)

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles, despite our
proud claims to the contrary. You don't hear much about
Lance Armstrong out-cornering the competition because
bicycling is mostly slow-motion drag-racing. We usually
pedal around at speeds so low that we wouldn't catch the eye
of a traffic cop running a speed trap in a school zone.

But with motorcycles, you can get into far more speed and
cornering trouble in the blink of an eye--the much heavier
and harder to handle machine will happily go far too fast
with just a twist of your wrist. And bicycling teaches us
nothing about throttle control, which is crucial on a
motorcycle in a tricky situation. Outside of our dreams and
perhaps ice and snow, it's hard to pedal hard enough to spin
a bicycle's rear tire.

In general, bicycling is much simpler than motorcycling
because there's so much less to worry about. My daily
bicycle ride for about an hour through the countryside is
pleasant exercise, but it wouldn't tax the skills of a child
on a single-speed with a coaster brake. The same child would
need a good deal more training and experience before
attempting the same gentle path on a motorcycle.

Carl Fogel

wrote in message
...

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles, despite our
proud claims to the contrary. You don't hear much about
Lance Armstrong out-cornering the competition because
bicycling is mostly slow-motion drag-racing. We usually
pedal around at speeds so low that we wouldn't catch the eye
of a traffic cop running a speed trap in a school zone.
Carl Fogel

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles?
Have to disagree, and you may too if you've ever been in fast descents on a
bicycle, where picking your line is important. I'm not sure if you remember
the 1997 Tour de France when Richard Virenque was trying to put Jan Ullrich
at great risk in the corners on one of the mountain states. The roads were
wet and slick as Jan had pretty poor descending skills in the rain.
Virenque knew this and took advantage of his winter training in the French
alps. Ullrich nearly crashed and could have changed the outcome of the
finish of the Tour, but he played it safe and let Richard have his day.
Ulrich went on to win the Tour and the rest is history.

I ride both, motorcycles, and bicycles, and ride them fast in the corners if
I'm familiar with the road, or can visibly see the road ahead.
Cornering on a motorcycle and cornering on a bicycle are two different
things. Throttle plays an important role in corning on a motorcycle,
something you don't have on a bicycles. As far as picking lines, it's about
the same.
-tom

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:10:33 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles, despite our
proud claims to the contrary. You don't hear much about
Lance Armstrong out-cornering the competition because
bicycling is mostly slow-motion drag-racing. We usually
pedal around at speeds so low that we wouldn't catch the eye
of a traffic cop running a speed trap in a school zone.
Carl Fogel

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles?
Have to disagree, and you may too if you've ever been in fast descents on a
bicycle, where picking your line is important. I'm not sure if you remember
the 1997 Tour de France when Richard Virenque was trying to put Jan Ullrich
at great risk in the corners on one of the mountain states. The roads were
wet and slick as Jan had pretty poor descending skills in the rain.
Virenque knew this and took advantage of his winter training in the French
alps. Ullrich nearly crashed and could have changed the outcome of the
finish of the Tour, but he played it safe and let Richard have his day.
Ulrich went on to win the Tour and the rest is history.

I ride both, motorcycles, and bicycles, and ride them fast in the corners if
I'm familiar with the road, or can visibly see the road ahead.
Cornering on a motorcycle and cornering on a bicycle are two different
things. Throttle plays an important role in corning on a motorcycle,
something you don't have on a bicycles. As far as picking lines, it's about
the same.
-tom


Dear Tom,

I agree that pros with races on the line may corner harder
than we do, or that some of you (I can't say us) corner
harder on descents.

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

Armstrong averages all of 25 mph for the whole Tour.

Here's another way to look at it. Cornering is crucial on
the annual Pikes Peak hill climb. No one talks about Lance's
fantastic cornering skill in his lightning ascent at 16 mph
of the Alp d'Huez.

And if Armstrong came back down the same road at speed, he
might be doing some impressive cornering, but he'd have
considerably less braking to do into each corner than a
racer on a motorcycle, whose engine would let it pass on the
straights.

Carl Fogel

wrote:

I agree that pros with races on the line may corner harder
than we do, or that some of you (I can't say us) corner
harder on descents.

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

That just means that "hard cornering" occurs at a smaller turning radius,
so this is only true if you're talking about bicycles and motorcycles
riding on the same or similar course (and perhaps you are; I'm just jumping
in at random )

--
Benjamin Lewis

Don't stop to stomp ants when the elephants are stampeding.

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:13:46 -0700, Benjamin Lewis
wrote:

wrote:

I agree that pros with races on the line may corner harder
than we do, or that some of you (I can't say us) corner
harder on descents.

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

That just means that "hard cornering" occurs at a smaller turning radius,
so this is only true if you're talking about bicycles and motorcycles
riding on the same or similar course (and perhaps you are; I'm just jumping
in at random )

Dear Benjamin,

True, I'm assuming similar courses.

But the speed of most bicycle riding is limited not by the
curves, but by the feeble motors. I doubt, for example, that
Armstrong got up the Alp d'Huez that fast because of his
cornering technique.

Apart from one-way downhills, are there any bicycle races in
which cornering is the deciding factor? That is, races in
which riders who are roughly as fast on the straights are
helpless to keep up because they corner too slowly?

I know little about bicycle racing, so I'm curious if I'm
missing something here. I certainly don't see much about
cornering here on rec.bicycles.tech.

Carl Fogel

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:13:46 -0700, Benjamin Lewis
wrote:

wrote:

I agree that pros with races on the line may corner harder
than we do, or that some of you (I can't say us) corner
harder on descents.

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

That just means that "hard cornering" occurs at a smaller turning radius,
so this is only true if you're talking about bicycles and motorcycles
riding on the same or similar course (and perhaps you are; I'm just jumping
in at random )

Dear Benjamin,

True, I'm assuming similar courses.

But the speed of most bicycle riding is limited not by the
curves, but by the feeble motors. I doubt, for example, that
Armstrong got up the Alp d'Huez that fast because of his
cornering technique.

Apart from one-way downhills, are there any bicycle races in
which cornering is the deciding factor? That is, races in
which riders who are roughly as fast on the straights are
helpless to keep up because they corner too slowly?

I know little about bicycle racing, so I'm curious if I'm
missing something here. I certainly don't see much about
cornering here on rec.bicycles.tech.

Carl Fogel

wrote:

I agree that pros with races on the line may corner harder
than we do, or that some of you (I can't say us) corner
harder on descents.

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

That just means that "hard cornering" occurs at a smaller turning radius,
so this is only true if you're talking about bicycles and motorcycles
riding on the same or similar course (and perhaps you are; I'm just jumping
in at random )

--
Benjamin Lewis

Don't stop to stomp ants when the elephants are stampeding.

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

Armstrong averages all of 25 mph for the whole Tour.


Are you riding your kids BMX bike on the little hill behind your house?
When I'm descending 8% grades, I sometimes pass motorcyclists at 55 mph.
Bicycling, like what we are talking in this newsgroup (not kids BMX bikes)
takes much more talent. For one, your center of gravity is so much higher
than on a motorcycle.

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:03:37 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
wrote:

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

Armstrong averages all of 25 mph for the whole Tour.


Are you riding your kids BMX bike on the little hill behind your house?
When I'm descending 8% grades, I sometimes pass motorcyclists at 55 mph.
Bicycling, like what we are talking in this newsgroup (not kids BMX bikes)
takes much more talent. For one, your center of gravity is so much higher
than on a motorcycle.

Dear Cal,

When I plug in 0 watts for coasting and -0.08 for an 8%
grade, it appears that you and your bicycle need to weigh
around 273 pounds to reach 55 mph (24.6 meters per second):

http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html

Even if you and your bike really are reaching 55 mph on 8%
grades, I suspect that the motorcycles could out-corner you
if they were interested. And if you're braking, you're no
longer doing 55 mph.

The Fury RoadMaster easily reached 35 mph on the s-bend down
the arroyo about a minute from my house. The last curve is
exciting, but only because it's blind and someone may be
coming up on the wrong side of the road or a deer may be
standing in the way.

I can't quite believe that typical bicyclists on this group
are exercising tremendous talent in cornering most of the
time, but I'm open to correction.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel