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Carbo loading
I posted this first to wreck.bike.racing, but no takers, so here it
goes: Hi All, Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling requirements for rides of different durations and intensities. I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me to ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds. I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little margin. At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure my hourly carb deficit. I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight. Does anyone have better numbers for this? I also wonder how great an effect carbo-loading would have in terms of available kcal. Everything I see is about how many mmol/kg of glycogen is found in the muscles. This doesn't tell me much, as I can't figure out what the molar mass is of glycogen, and anyway is the kg the mass of the muscles? If "normal" concentrations are 110 mmol/kg or so, and a successful carbo- loading session boosts this to 190mmol/kg, what does that mean in terms of available kcal? This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a little later. So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more can be crammed in by carbo-loading? Joseph PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it- doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please. |
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Carbo loading
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Carbo loading
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Carbo loading
On Feb 10, 12:06*pm, Ben C wrote:
On 2008-02-10, wrote: I posted this first to wreck.bike.racing, but no takers, so here it goes: Hi All, Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling requirements for rides of different durations and intensities. I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me to ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds. I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little margin. At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure my hourly carb deficit. I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight. Does anyone have better numbers for this? It must surely depend on the rider and his conditioning. How far can you ride before you bonk assuming you eat nothing on the way? It varies a lot depending on how many miles you've been doing. Someone can go for a 30km ride every day, and get quite fit, and do the ride quite fast, but will last only about 60km if he tries to go further. But if the same rider starts to go for some longer rides, he will soon be able to do 100km without bonking. But he's the same person, the same weight, and goes at about the same speed. His body just somehow figured out where to store the fuel. [...] This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a little later. So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more can be crammed in by carbo-loading? The 4.5h ride probably needed about 3500 kcal. If you reckon you ate 400kcal/h, then that's 1800, which means you stored 1700 kcal. That corresponds to only going 65km with no food at all, which doesn't sound very far. I think 400kcal/h sounds like a lot, I should think you're storing up more than you think. I think there's no way to know except to test your own energy capacity experimentally: bring water but no food, ride as far as you can and see how far you get. Alternatively take the distance you normally ride and double it for an approximate figure. Then convert that to kcal. The 400 kcal/hr is not a historical number. It's what I figure is a shade over my max absorbtion amount. On these rides last year, I did not eat that much. And I suffered. The 4.5hr race I figure I burned about 3900 kcal. 80-85% carbs. I guess I ate maybe 600 kcal. That puts my stored capacity at about 2500kcal with no special preparations. That makes sense. My most recent long-ish rides have been 3 hours with no food or drink (it's been damp and cool, so I haven't missed the drink) and I had zero problems. These were LSD type rides, so I figure kcal around 2200. Again makes sense given an expected 2500 reserves. So then the question is how much more can carbo-loading theoretically increase my reserves in terms of kcal? The things I've read suggest 80% increases in muscle gycogen is not unreasonable. But how much of my total reserves are stored in these specific muscles. And would it make sense to try to exercise and carbo-load other muscles like arms, etc so they have their own extra reserves so they don't need to draw from the ingested fuel? Or were they going to have enough anyway not to ever need additional fuel? Joseph |
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Carbo loading
wrote in message
... I posted this first to wreck.bike.racing, but no takers, so here it goes: Hi All, Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling requirements for rides of different durations and intensities. I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me to ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds. I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little margin. At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure my hourly carb deficit. I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight. Does anyone have better numbers for this? I also wonder how great an effect carbo-loading would have in terms of available kcal. Everything I see is about how many mmol/kg of glycogen is found in the muscles. This doesn't tell me much, as I can't figure out what the molar mass is of glycogen, and anyway is the kg the mass of the muscles? If "normal" concentrations are 110 mmol/kg or so, and a successful carbo- loading session boosts this to 190mmol/kg, what does that mean in terms of available kcal? This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a little later. So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more can be crammed in by carbo-loading? Joseph PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it- doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please. The box containing human metabolic potential is much bigger than many people realize... It all depends on how you train and what your goals are. I have never won a race and I am not considered fast. I love to ride long distance and found ingesting fuel during a ride took me out of my lovely endorphin rich stupor. In short, a sustained and intense catabolic high was the primary goal of riding. Given this, I have done the following with only water, NO fuel taken on during the ride and a diet that contained NO carbohydrates (literally, ZERO carbs): 5 hour solo century Trail Ridge Road to the +12,000' point from Boulder 145 mile solo ride at an average speed of 18.7 MPH, that was a hot day, about 4 gallons. What matters is how aggressive you have become in building an efficient set of intermediaries in your Krebs Cycle, so that you can burn fat fast enough to use it as your primary source. The human body has a tremendous range and number of usable metabolic modes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebs_cycle -- Dave Reckoning Noblesville, Indiana |
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Carbo loading
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Carbo loading
On Feb 10, 3:23*pm, "Dave Reckoning" wrote:
wrote in message ... I posted this first to wreck.bike.racing, but no takers, so here it goes: Hi All, Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling requirements for rides of different durations and intensities. I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me to ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds. I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little margin. At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure my hourly carb deficit. I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight. Does anyone have better numbers for this? I also wonder how great an effect carbo-loading would have in terms of available kcal. Everything I see is about how many mmol/kg of glycogen is found in the muscles. This doesn't tell me much, as I can't figure out what the molar mass is of glycogen, and anyway is the kg the mass of the muscles? If "normal" concentrations are 110 mmol/kg or so, and a successful carbo- loading session boosts this to 190mmol/kg, what does that mean in terms of available kcal? This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a little later. So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more can be crammed in by carbo-loading? Joseph PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it- doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please. The box containing human *metabolic potential is much bigger than many people realize... Indeed. One look at top RAAM competitors is all that is needed there. It all depends on how you train and what your goals are. I have never won a race and I am not considered fast. I love to ride long distance and found ingesting fuel during a ride took me out of my lovely endorphin *rich stupor. In short, a sustained and intense catabolic high was the primary goal of riding. I routinely ride 3+ hours with no food. I usually only bring food for a race where I know I will hit the wall if I don't. But for just rides I figure I could afford to lose some weight, and I don't get hungry, so why eat? Though I've been in scores of races, I've only ever won one once and that was a long time ago. So I'm not particularly fast either, and have become more interested in long distance events over the years. Given this, I have done the following with only water, NO fuel taken on during the ride and a diet that contained NO carbohydrates (literally, ZERO carbs): 5 hour solo century Trail Ridge Road to the +12,000' point from Boulder 145 mile solo ride at an average speed of 18.7 MPH, that was a hot day, about 4 gallons. Sounds like fun! What matters is how aggressive you have become in building an efficient set of intermediaries in your Krebs Cycle, so that you can burn fat fast enough to use it as your primary source. The human body has a tremendous range and number of usable metabolic modes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebs_cycle I train/ride more or less just by how I feel, and I have no plans to get too scientific about it. This has resulted in a pretty good level of endurance. So for the purpose of specific races, I'd like to optimize what I've managed to build up. I don't have more than 8-12 hours per week to ride, so in that department my results will be what they'll be. But I'd hate to be short changing myself by pacing myself too slowly out of fear of running dry. Joseph |
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Carbo loading
On Feb 10, 4:06*pm, Tom Sherman
wrote: aka Joseph Santaniello wrote: ... My most recent long-ish rides have been 3 hours with no food or drink (it's been damp and cool, so I haven't missed the drink) and I had zero problems. These were LSD type rides[...] Were they good or bad trips? -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful All my trips are good ones! Joseph |
#9
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Carbo loading
Dave Reckoning wrote:
The box containing human metabolic potential is much bigger than many people realize... It all depends on how you train and what your goals are. I have never won a race and I am not considered fast. I love to ride long distance and found ingesting fuel during a ride took me out of my lovely endorphin rich stupor. In short, a sustained and intense catabolic high was the primary goal of riding. Given this, I have done the following with only water, NO fuel taken on during the ride and a diet that contained NO carbohydrates (literally, ZERO carbs): 5 hour solo century Trail Ridge Road to the +12,000' point from Boulder 145 mile solo ride at an average speed of 18.7 MPH, that was a hot day, about 4 gallons. What matters is how aggressive you have become in building an efficient set of intermediaries in your Krebs Cycle, so that you can burn fat fast enough to use it as your primary source. The human body has a tremendous range and number of usable metabolic modes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebs_cycle While I have also done long rides without eating (longest: 300km/192mi) and so know it can be done, I don't see the point. It's apparently true (according to the research I've read that the human body does make long-term adjustments to a high fat diet that result in better fat utilization during exercise*, but I don't know why anyone would intentionally do that (unless circumstances dictate). *http://tinyurl.com/2oxe7s |
#10
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Carbo loading
On Feb 10, 8:49*am, Peter Cole wrote:
Dave Reckoning wrote: The box containing human *metabolic potential is much bigger than many people realize... It all depends on how you train and what your goals are. I have never won a race and I am not considered fast. I love to ride long distance and found ingesting fuel during a ride took me out of my lovely endorphin *rich stupor. In short, a sustained and intense catabolic high was the primary goal of riding. Given this, I have done the following with only water, NO fuel taken on during the ride and a diet that contained NO carbohydrates (literally, ZERO carbs): 5 hour solo century Trail Ridge Road to the +12,000' point from Boulder 145 mile solo ride at an average speed of 18.7 MPH, that was a hot day, about 4 gallons. What matters is how aggressive you have become in building an efficient set of intermediaries in your Krebs Cycle, so that you can burn fat fast enough to use it as your primary source. The human body has a tremendous range and number of usable metabolic modes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krebs_cycle While I have also done long rides without eating (longest: 300km/192mi) and so know it can be done, I don't see the point. It's apparently true (according to the research I've read that the human body does make long-term adjustments to a high fat diet that result in better fat utilization during exercise*, but I don't know why anyone would intentionally do that (unless circumstances dictate). *http://tinyurl.com/2oxe7s- Hide quoted text - You did 192 miles without eating? Gadzooks! Why? I did a pedal to the metal Seattle-to-Portland with a bunch of racer buddies many years ago and stopped twice -- at 100 miles and about 150 miles, and I started with a jersey full of old tech food (i.e. real food like bananas). That ride, which is mostly flat, shows that long mileage does not necessarily equate to high calorie output. We accumulated a huge, cooperative pack and did the first 100 miles in a few minutes under 4 hours. Although I took my required time at the front, much of the time I was just sitting in the middle of the pack spinning my legs around. I could have been reading a book. The second half of the ride was a different story -- calorie output went up due to heat, hills and pack collapse. We also hit the two day riders, some of whom wanted to drop in to our group and prove that they could FU the tempo. --- Jay Beattie. |
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