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  #81  
Old March 18th 18, 04:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,493
Default New bike path

On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 8:05:50 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/17/2018 8:53 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 2:35:10 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-17 14:06, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 9:25:02 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-17 08:15, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

Joerg also needs to read-up on current and past federal
transportation financing -- ISTEA, SAFETEA-LU, MAP-21 and note
that the Orange Overlord is gutting federal transportation
funding -- shifting costs onto the states for the huge,
incredible, the bestest infrastructure projects ever! Most of the
big bicycle projects in Oregon were funded in large part by the
feds. There was also state and local funding under the Oregon
Bicycle Bill.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rex-b...b_3861490.html




Just open some government land (which they are now doing) and let people
ride their MTB there. That solves a lot of the missing bike links.
For example, thanks to Arnold Schwarzenegger we've got this
connector from Lotus to Folsom:

https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...rXV2vLEQ/o.jpg



Before that the ride was much longer and quite hazardous (I almost got
clipped by a motorcyclist there). Now the ride is like a
mini-vacation but you do need a serious MTB. Rim brakes like in the
photo are not recommended on this route.

Oh, so tax payers should be paying for your "serious MTB" route?
That's dopey. Government should be installing infrastructure to
reduce inner-city and suburban congestion -- and providing useful
connectors for ordinary cyclists and not the super-gnarly mountain
biker mountain-lion tamers. Focus on the topic: "bike paths" and not
super-awesome, scary mountain bike trails.


People out here are different and that may be hard to understand for
city folk. For example, when I came back from Placerville on the usual
route (singletrack) a bunch of kids and their dad came by. Dad had to
drop off the car for service, they loaded all their MTBs and rode back..
Just a normal day in paradise. They sure rode like they know how to
handle MTBs.


Pfff. You move to a airpark-golf-course community and make it sound like you're the Donner Party crossing the Sierra. You are city folk. If you can ride to Costco, you're not in the middle of nowhere.

I'm not impressed by someone who hauls his kids in a car, gets out and then goes trail riding. I can do that around here, too (assuming I still had small kids) -- but it's not relevant to transportation planning in general. Do the awesome mountain bike kids ride to school? I would find that more impressive. Living near the hills give you easy access to trails, and maybe even makes them relevant connectors, but your mythical person who would ride if there were infrastructure is not going to be dragging his or her ass over dirt trails to get somewhere.


Exactly. Joerg is all about anecdotes, and believes his "I saw one
guy..." tales trump all data.

When he does deal with data, it's to say "Well, 1% bike mode share is
excellent for America." Or "Well, all those facilities don't work
because they're built wrong. It's the _next_ facility that will perform
miracles."


He should spend more time investigating transportation policies and maybe even getting on the Cameron Park CSD board of directors -- or some bicycle advocacy group. I'm not that happy about the direction ultimately taken by the BTA (now the Street Trust), but it accomplished a lot back in the early days. I can look around Portland and identify specific projects we accomplished -- bikes on TriMet, the re-do of the massively popular Hawthorne Bridge crossing, the Rose Quarter bike facilities and all the bike lanes put in to comply with the Bike Bill -- including the one I ride practically every work day (unless taking an alternate route). This was because of button-up bicycle advocates and not the lunatic fringe wanting to promote gender equality among whales (a frequent problem with advocacy groups -- fringe interests taking over). Our fearless leaders knew all the ins-and-outs of ISTEA and angles for selling bike projects in a way that meant money for state or local planning bodies. We also caused city planners to educate themselves on bicycle infrastructure -- Mia Burke in particular who turned it into a huge business, Alta Planning. Joerg could go to the people in Folsom and find out exactly how they did all the magical things the people in Cameron Park are too busy golfing or flying to care about. He could go there in his stage coach and talk to the country folks, speaking in that special country-folk way. Maybe stop at Costco on the way home.

-- Jay Beattie.
Ads
  #82  
Old March 18th 18, 04:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default New bike path

On 2018-03-18 08:10, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 8:05:50 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 3/17/2018 8:53 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 2:35:10 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-17 14:06, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 9:25:02 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-03-17 08:15, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

Joerg also needs to read-up on current and past federal
transportation financing -- ISTEA, SAFETEA-LU, MAP-21 and
note that the Orange Overlord is gutting federal
transportation funding -- shifting costs onto the states
for the huge, incredible, the bestest infrastructure
projects ever! Most of the big bicycle projects in Oregon
were funded in large part by the feds. There was also
state and local funding under the Oregon Bicycle Bill.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rex-b...b_3861490.html






Just open some government land (which they are now doing) and let people
ride their MTB there. That solves a lot of the missing bike
links. For example, thanks to Arnold Schwarzenegger we've
got this connector from Lotus to Folsom:

https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...rXV2vLEQ/o.jpg





Before that the ride was much longer and quite hazardous (I almost got
clipped by a motorcyclist there). Now the ride is like a
mini-vacation but you do need a serious MTB. Rim brakes
like in the photo are not recommended on this route.

Oh, so tax payers should be paying for your "serious MTB"
route? That's dopey. Government should be installing
infrastructure to reduce inner-city and suburban congestion
-- and providing useful connectors for ordinary cyclists and
not the super-gnarly mountain biker mountain-lion tamers.
Focus on the topic: "bike paths" and not super-awesome, scary
mountain bike trails.


People out here are different and that may be hard to
understand for city folk. For example, when I came back from
Placerville on the usual route (singletrack) a bunch of kids
and their dad came by. Dad had to drop off the car for service,
they loaded all their MTBs and rode back. Just a normal day in
paradise. They sure rode like they know how to handle MTBs.

Pfff. You move to a airpark-golf-course community and make it
sound like you're the Donner Party crossing the Sierra. You are
city folk. If you can ride to Costco, you're not in the middle of
nowhere.

I'm not impressed by someone who hauls his kids in a car, gets
out and then goes trail riding.



It was the only way back by bike. The oter option would have been their
courtesy shuttle.


... I can do that around here, too
(assuming I still had small kids) -- but it's not relevant to
transportation planning in general. Do the awesome mountain bike
kids ride to school? I would find that more impressive. Living
near the hills give you easy access to trails, and maybe even
makes them relevant connectors, ...



Exactly, relevant connectors. When riding from here to Placerville the
only viable connector.


... but your mythical person who
would ride if there were infrastructure is not going to be
dragging his or her ass over dirt trails to get somewhere.



Several did. They are not mythical but real people and are now regularly
riding the trails. One even splurged and bought a new and serious MTB.
What triggered it was me taking our dogs along a different road, came by
an open garage, saw a garage queen MTB in there. A guy was outside and
we got to talk. "You can get to Placerville by bicycle?" ... "Yes, I can
show you" ... Then we rode together. Then one of his friends wanted to
come along. Then they rode together and another friend joined.

Now we even have a bike shop right on that trail, Sam's Town Cyclery. He
would not be there if he wasn't sure that that's where MTB riders come by.

https://s17-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/...4aae05fff73191


Exactly. Joerg is all about anecdotes, and believes his "I saw one
guy..." tales trump all data.

When he does deal with data, it's to say "Well, 1% bike mode share
is excellent for America." Or "Well, all those facilities don't
work because they're built wrong. It's the _next_ facility that
will perform miracles."



No blah-blah, come here and ride the American River bike path during
rush hour. Or the Humbug Willow Creek trail system in Folsom. Then you
know. Those are prime examples of a bike paths built right.


He should spend more time investigating transportation policies and
maybe even getting on the Cameron Park CSD board of directors ...



That would be rather useless. I know someone who tried and eventually
resigned. I remember when I was at a meeting, they discussed a yuppie
town mural ad nauseam and then blew an incredible amount of money on it,
wanting us to look like El Dorado Hills. Which will never work.

I could tell you some stories about other "smart" decisions.


... -- or
some bicycle advocacy group. I'm not that happy about the direction
ultimately taken by the BTA (now the Street Trust), but it
accomplished a lot back in the early days. I can look around
Portland and identify specific projects we accomplished -- bikes on
TriMet, the re-do of the massively popular Hawthorne Bridge crossing,
the Rose Quarter bike facilities and all the bike lanes put in to
comply with the Bike Bill -- including the one I ride practically
every work day (unless taking an alternate route). This was because
of button-up bicycle advocates and not the lunatic fringe wanting to
promote gender equality among whales (a frequent problem with
advocacy groups -- fringe interests taking over). Our fearless
leaders knew all the ins-and-outs of ISTEA and angles for selling
bike projects in a way that meant money for state or local planning
bodies. We also caused city planners to educate themselves on
bicycle infrastructure -- Mia Burke in particular who turned it into
a huge business, Alta Planning. Joerg could go to the people in
Folsom and find out exactly how they did all the magical things the
people in Cameron Park are too busy golfing or flying to care about.



They have enough smart leaders, we don't.


He could go there in his stage coach and talk to the country folks,
speaking in that special country-folk way. Maybe stop at Costco on
the way home.


The stage coach folks are in Placerville, Costco is more west in an
urban area. Oh, and once they (finally!) finish a bike path from White
Rock Road to Costco in Folsom later this year I can indeed get to Costco
on ... drum roll ... singletrack! Also to lots of other stores there.
I haven't tried at Costco yet but Lowe's, Home Depot and Trader Joe's
let me bring the bike inside so I shop there. Walmart doesn't so I
mostly don't shop there anymore.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #83  
Old March 18th 18, 05:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,418
Default New bike path

On 3/18/2018 11:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-18 08:10, jbeattie wrote:


*********************** ... but your mythical person who
would ride if there were infrastructure is not going to be
dragging his or her ass over dirt trails to get somewhere.



Several did. They are not mythical but real people and are now regularly
riding the trails. One even splurged and bought a new and serious MTB.


Again, Joerg, you keep pumping out anecdotes. "One guy even bought a
bike!!!" or "You should see the trail at rush hour!!"

Anyone with less bias and more interested in facts would say "One guy
out of 20,000 population?" or "At rush hour, how many people are driving
on the road instead of biking on the trail?"

Now we even have a bike shop right on that trail, Sam's Town Cyclery. He
would not be there if he wasn't sure that that's where MTB riders come by.


That's fine. A couple years ago a new bike shop opened adjacent to the
longest rail-trail in our area. I know the guy who used to own it. Nice
guy; he did some volunteer work with me. He said the shop was doing just
fine, including renting bikes to people to use on the trail.

But that guy later sold his interest in the shop to his business partner
and went on to a job that made more money. And a few months ago, the
business partner moved the shop from the trailside to the heart of
plaza-land, about five miles away. The business is doing much better now.

I'm in favor of people riding bikes - especially if the bike ride
replaces a car trip. I'm in favor of bike shops.

But bike shops come and bike shops go; and most people using trails for
bike rides have _added_ a car trip, to shuttle their bikes to and from
the trail. It's folly to think that bike trails are going to generate an
America with fewer cars plus lots of thriving bike shops.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #84  
Old March 18th 18, 05:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default New bike path

Frank Krygowski wrote:

That's fine. A couple years ago a new bike
shop opened adjacent to the longest
rail-trail in our area. I know the guy who
used to own it. Nice guy; he did some
volunteer work with me. He said the shop was
doing just fine, including renting bikes to
people to use on the trail.


One should place the shop where people go by
bike already, and optimally where people ONLY
go by bike (pedestrians are fine), because
otherwise the bikers are much fewer and they
are occupied with the traffic, they won't see
or stop to access the shop in as relaxed
a manner.

Also it is good to place the shop next to some
popular and accessible place, for example the
city public library, so people can turn in the
bike for some minor fix, go to the library,
then get it when they are done.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #85  
Old March 18th 18, 06:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default New bike path

On 2018-03-18 09:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/18/2018 11:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-18 08:10, jbeattie wrote:


... but your mythical person who
would ride if there were infrastructure is not going to be
dragging his or her ass over dirt trails to get somewhere.



Several did. They are not mythical but real people and are now
regularly riding the trails. One even splurged and bought a new and
serious MTB.


Again, Joerg, you keep pumping out anecdotes. "One guy even bought a
bike!!!" or "You should see the trail at rush hour!!"

Anyone with less bias and more interested in facts would say "One guy
out of 20,000 population?" or "At rush hour, how many people are driving
on the road instead of biking on the trail?"


You really don't get it, do you?

I have brought numerous examples over time here and it's all evidenced
by two (2!) bike shops opening in this little village. 15 years ago
there were none.


Now we even have a bike shop right on that trail, Sam's Town Cyclery.
He would not be there if he wasn't sure that that's where MTB riders
come by.


That's fine. A couple years ago a new bike shop opened adjacent to the
longest rail-trail in our area. I know the guy who used to own it. Nice
guy; he did some volunteer work with me. He said the shop was doing just
fine, including renting bikes to people to use on the trail.


See?


But that guy later sold his interest in the shop to his business partner
and went on to a job that made more money. And a few months ago, the
business partner moved the shop from the trailside to the heart of
plaza-land, about five miles away. The business is doing much better now.


Sam's Cyclery in Cameron Park moved from a shopping area in town _to_
the trail.


I'm in favor of people riding bikes - especially if the bike ride
replaces a car trip. I'm in favor of bike shops.

But bike shops come and bike shops go; and most people using trails for
bike rides have _added_ a car trip, to shuttle their bikes to and from
the trail.



And why do they do that? Because they do not feel safe on most roads. If
we had proper bike paths and lanes they would be willing to cycle. I
can't even count anymore how many cyclists I have tried to convince
heading to the singletrack that runs through town by bike. I personally
do not like riding on high speed thoroughfares myself if they don't have
bike lanes or at least wide enough shoulders. However, I do it anyhow.
Most others don't.

So now I usually meet them at one of the areas where there is trail
parking. Which happens to be ... tadaaaa ... excatly where Sam's Cyclery
is now. They truck the bikes there, I ride mine there.


It's folly to think that bike trails are going to generate an
America with fewer cars plus lots of thriving bike shops.


It does work here. Not fewer cars but more cycling. For me it has turned
from next to nothing to 4000mi/year while my car has dropped to less
than 1000mi/year. One core reason can be summed up in two words: Bike
paths. In my case mostly singletrack but that's just my preference.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #86  
Old March 19th 18, 12:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default New bike path

On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 10:46:25 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/18/2018 6:04 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 23:11:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/17/2018 11:06 AM, Joerg wrote:

There will always be areas where it doesn't work...

Well, THERE'S a statement I can agree with! I'd say it applies to
countless areas!

or, like in Milton
Keynes, the design gets largely messed up and then people don't use it.

Very few people claim that Stevenage's and Milton Keynes' designs were
"messed up." They (or at least Stevenage, which I'm more familiar with)
were state of the art, matching or exceeding what was done in the
Netherlands at the time.

The "messed up" part was the automobile facility system. It was too
good. Since motoring was not dissuaded, people chose to drive cars.
It's thoroughly explained he www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/stevenage/


I think that the point is that people are inherently lazy, for want of
a better description.


Yes, most people are inherently lazy.

Joerg claims that if the government puts in lots of bike paths, people
will use their cars a lot less. They'll take to bicycling in droves.

Perhaps he also thinks that if building designers would just put in
extra stairways, people would stop using elevators.

I taught at a university. I had two offices, one on the third floor and
one on the fourth. Yes, I usually used the stairs. But I usually had
them to myself. And there were many times I saw people use the elevator
to go up or down just one floor.


The other day my wife was talking to a friend and mentioned that I
often rode a bicycle for an hour and the friend was amazed that anyone
could ride a bicycle for a whole hour. Oh! Such a long ride!

I doubt that these sort of people, and my guess is that they greatly
outnumber those who might embark on such a long ride, will ever become
a cyclist Mups or no Mups.

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #87  
Old March 19th 18, 12:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default New bike path

On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 10:05:02 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-18 09:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/18/2018 11:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-18 08:10, jbeattie wrote:


... but your mythical person who
would ride if there were infrastructure is not going to be
dragging his or her ass over dirt trails to get somewhere.


Several did. They are not mythical but real people and are now
regularly riding the trails. One even splurged and bought a new and
serious MTB.


Again, Joerg, you keep pumping out anecdotes. "One guy even bought a
bike!!!" or "You should see the trail at rush hour!!"

Anyone with less bias and more interested in facts would say "One guy
out of 20,000 population?" or "At rush hour, how many people are driving
on the road instead of biking on the trail?"


You really don't get it, do you?

I have brought numerous examples over time here and it's all evidenced
by two (2!) bike shops opening in this little village. 15 years ago
there were none.


Now we even have a bike shop right on that trail, Sam's Town Cyclery.
He would not be there if he wasn't sure that that's where MTB riders
come by.


That's fine. A couple years ago a new bike shop opened adjacent to the
longest rail-trail in our area. I know the guy who used to own it. Nice
guy; he did some volunteer work with me. He said the shop was doing just
fine, including renting bikes to people to use on the trail.


See?


But that guy later sold his interest in the shop to his business partner
and went on to a job that made more money. And a few months ago, the
business partner moved the shop from the trailside to the heart of
plaza-land, about five miles away. The business is doing much better now.


Sam's Cyclery in Cameron Park moved from a shopping area in town _to_
the trail.


I'm in favor of people riding bikes - especially if the bike ride
replaces a car trip. I'm in favor of bike shops.

But bike shops come and bike shops go; and most people using trails for
bike rides have _added_ a car trip, to shuttle their bikes to and from
the trail.



And why do they do that? Because they do not feel safe on most roads. If
we had proper bike paths and lanes they would be willing to cycle. I
can't even count anymore how many cyclists I have tried to convince
heading to the singletrack that runs through town by bike. I personally
do not like riding on high speed thoroughfares myself if they don't have
bike lanes or at least wide enough shoulders. However, I do it anyhow.
Most others don't.

So now I usually meet them at one of the areas where there is trail
parking. Which happens to be ... tadaaaa ... excatly where Sam's Cyclery
is now. They truck the bikes there, I ride mine there.


It's folly to think that bike trails are going to generate an
America with fewer cars plus lots of thriving bike shops.


It does work here. Not fewer cars but more cycling. For me it has turned
from next to nothing to 4000mi/year while my car has dropped to less
than 1000mi/year. One core reason can be summed up in two words: Bike
paths. In my case mostly singletrack but that's just my preference.


One wonders, with all these bicycle paths why you have two SUV's in
the garage. In fact, given that you only drive 1/5th of the time
wouldn't it be cheaper to rent a car for the few times that you want
to drive?
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #88  
Old March 19th 18, 01:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,493
Default New bike path

On Sunday, March 18, 2018 at 10:05:08 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-18 09:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/18/2018 11:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-18 08:10, jbeattie wrote:


... but your mythical person who
would ride if there were infrastructure is not going to be
dragging his or her ass over dirt trails to get somewhere.


Several did. They are not mythical but real people and are now
regularly riding the trails. One even splurged and bought a new and
serious MTB.


Again, Joerg, you keep pumping out anecdotes. "One guy even bought a
bike!!!" or "You should see the trail at rush hour!!"

Anyone with less bias and more interested in facts would say "One guy
out of 20,000 population?" or "At rush hour, how many people are driving
on the road instead of biking on the trail?"


You really don't get it, do you?

I have brought numerous examples over time here and it's all evidenced
by two (2!) bike shops opening in this little village. 15 years ago
there were none.


Now we even have a bike shop right on that trail, Sam's Town Cyclery.
He would not be there if he wasn't sure that that's where MTB riders
come by.


That's fine. A couple years ago a new bike shop opened adjacent to the
longest rail-trail in our area. I know the guy who used to own it. Nice
guy; he did some volunteer work with me. He said the shop was doing just
fine, including renting bikes to people to use on the trail.


See?


But that guy later sold his interest in the shop to his business partner
and went on to a job that made more money. And a few months ago, the
business partner moved the shop from the trailside to the heart of
plaza-land, about five miles away. The business is doing much better now.


Sam's Cyclery in Cameron Park moved from a shopping area in town _to_
the trail.


I'm in favor of people riding bikes - especially if the bike ride
replaces a car trip. I'm in favor of bike shops.

But bike shops come and bike shops go; and most people using trails for
bike rides have _added_ a car trip, to shuttle their bikes to and from
the trail.



And why do they do that? Because they do not feel safe on most roads. If
we had proper bike paths and lanes they would be willing to cycle. I
can't even count anymore how many cyclists I have tried to convince
heading to the singletrack that runs through town by bike. I personally
do not like riding on high speed thoroughfares myself if they don't have
bike lanes or at least wide enough shoulders. However, I do it anyhow.
Most others don't.

So now I usually meet them at one of the areas where there is trail
parking. Which happens to be ... tadaaaa ... excatly where Sam's Cyclery
is now. They truck the bikes there, I ride mine there.


It's folly to think that bike trails are going to generate an
America with fewer cars plus lots of thriving bike shops.


It does work here. Not fewer cars but more cycling. For me it has turned
from next to nothing to 4000mi/year while my car has dropped to less
than 1000mi/year. One core reason can be summed up in two words: Bike
paths. In my case mostly singletrack but that's just my preference.


O.K., so to summarize, you moved into a former cow pasture turned into an air-park golf course community; you work from home and ride on trails to other urban areas in the Sierra foothills. You ride with twenty pounds or more of special equipment, including first-aid kits, rope, a giant battery and light and need double suspension to manage the terrain. There are mountain lions, and the distances are so great between population areas that you take a gallon or more of water in the summer. Sounds like a perfect commute route, although putting in some bike lanes may attract more riders.

We have bike trails with parking lots, too, but they don't do much for relieving traffic congestion, even though some purport to commute on the trails.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_bGCOFCQ0I Judging by where the video ends, the guy probably works at Rapha. No mountain lions, and are inner-city trails are never far from water, usually in puddles.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #89  
Old March 19th 18, 03:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,418
Default New bike path

On 3/18/2018 7:32 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 10:46:25 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/18/2018 6:04 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 23:11:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/17/2018 11:06 AM, Joerg wrote:

There will always be areas where it doesn't work...

Well, THERE'S a statement I can agree with! I'd say it applies to
countless areas!

or, like in Milton
Keynes, the design gets largely messed up and then people don't use it.

Very few people claim that Stevenage's and Milton Keynes' designs were
"messed up." They (or at least Stevenage, which I'm more familiar with)
were state of the art, matching or exceeding what was done in the
Netherlands at the time.

The "messed up" part was the automobile facility system. It was too
good. Since motoring was not dissuaded, people chose to drive cars.
It's thoroughly explained he www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/stevenage/

I think that the point is that people are inherently lazy, for want of
a better description.


Yes, most people are inherently lazy.

Joerg claims that if the government puts in lots of bike paths, people
will use their cars a lot less. They'll take to bicycling in droves.

Perhaps he also thinks that if building designers would just put in
extra stairways, people would stop using elevators.

I taught at a university. I had two offices, one on the third floor and
one on the fourth. Yes, I usually used the stairs. But I usually had
them to myself. And there were many times I saw people use the elevator
to go up or down just one floor.


The other day my wife was talking to a friend and mentioned that I
often rode a bicycle for an hour and the friend was amazed that anyone
could ride a bicycle for a whole hour. Oh! Such a long ride!

I doubt that these sort of people, and my guess is that they greatly
outnumber those who might embark on such a long ride, will ever become
a cyclist Mups or no Mups.


When my daughter was a very young Girl Scout, we took the troop, their
bicycles and a few of their mothers with their bikes to a local rail
trail. We all rode 3.5 miles out, then back.

Seven miles! The women were amazed! They never thought that it was
possible for a non-professional to ride seven miles.

I'm quite sure none of those women ever tried it again.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #90  
Old March 19th 18, 06:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default New bike path

On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 22:27:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/18/2018 7:32 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 10:46:25 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/18/2018 6:04 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 23:11:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/17/2018 11:06 AM, Joerg wrote:

There will always be areas where it doesn't work...

Well, THERE'S a statement I can agree with! I'd say it applies to
countless areas!

or, like in Milton
Keynes, the design gets largely messed up and then people don't use it.

Very few people claim that Stevenage's and Milton Keynes' designs were
"messed up." They (or at least Stevenage, which I'm more familiar with)
were state of the art, matching or exceeding what was done in the
Netherlands at the time.

The "messed up" part was the automobile facility system. It was too
good. Since motoring was not dissuaded, people chose to drive cars.
It's thoroughly explained he www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/stevenage/

I think that the point is that people are inherently lazy, for want of
a better description.

Yes, most people are inherently lazy.

Joerg claims that if the government puts in lots of bike paths, people
will use their cars a lot less. They'll take to bicycling in droves.

Perhaps he also thinks that if building designers would just put in
extra stairways, people would stop using elevators.

I taught at a university. I had two offices, one on the third floor and
one on the fourth. Yes, I usually used the stairs. But I usually had
them to myself. And there were many times I saw people use the elevator
to go up or down just one floor.


The other day my wife was talking to a friend and mentioned that I
often rode a bicycle for an hour and the friend was amazed that anyone
could ride a bicycle for a whole hour. Oh! Such a long ride!

I doubt that these sort of people, and my guess is that they greatly
outnumber those who might embark on such a long ride, will ever become
a cyclist Mups or no Mups.


When my daughter was a very young Girl Scout, we took the troop, their
bicycles and a few of their mothers with their bikes to a local rail
trail. We all rode 3.5 miles out, then back.

Seven miles! The women were amazed! They never thought that it was
possible for a non-professional to ride seven miles.

I'm quite sure none of those women ever tried it again.


Back when I was running I used to run 3.5 miles out and 3.5 miles back
:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

 




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