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#51
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Latest gear shift tech
On Friday, March 19, 2021 at 1:32:37 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Op vrijdag 19 maart 2021 om 20:41:42 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski: On 3/19/2021 1:40 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, March 19, 2021 at 9:21:24 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/19/2021 12:01 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, March 19, 2021 at 8:36:57 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/19/2021 9:23 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, March 18, 2021 at 10:09:35 p.m. UTC-4, John B. wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 20:21:14 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 3/18/2021 5:50 PM, John B. wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:52:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2021 3:26 PM, AMuzi wrote: I remember advertisements for Bendix 2-speed Automatic hubs, "No Pesky Cables!" Shimano achieves that goal differently: https://bikerumor.com/2021/03/16/pat...fting-details/ When did maximum complexity become a bike design goal? But Frank, it avoids the necessity of having to learn such intricate skills as shifting with those infernal manual down tube shifters :-) A note here Eddy Merckz - reckoned by some as the greatest bicycle racer of all times used down tube shifters. http://internationalcyclesport.com/h...1969_bike.html Well, there is that famous Eddy quotation. When presenting Merckx with a bike equipped with the very new DuraAce SIS Six, Mr Shimano said, "You'll never miss a shift!" To which Himself replied, "I haven't missed a shift since I was 12 years old." Along those lines I remember an article comparing "modern" bikes with "old Time" bicycles and some of the riders complaining how "dangerous it was to take one hand off the handle bar to shift". I can't remember the article (Frank probably can) but I do remember how strange I thought it was as I had never owned a multi speed bike that didn't shift on the down tube :-) -- Cheers, John B. I can only imagine how dangerous they think it is to eat whilst riding or to remove or put on a bicycling jacket whilst riding. I guess they use water bags and hose to drink from as it'd be too dangerous to reach for a water bottle and then drink from it whilst riding with just one hand. I believe the article John refers to was the one in which several young racers were asked to compare modern racing bikes with those from the 1980s. (They sang loud praises of more gears, more rigidity, better aero, etc. but their climbing speeds correlated exactly with total weight - a fact the author didn't understand.) Regarding purported "danger" of moving one's hand: How many here have taken off a jacket while riding? Or taken off a rain cape? Thrown rocks at a chasing dog? Pushed another cyclist up a hill? "Ghost ridden" a bike alongside the one you were riding? I've done all those and more. Its not danger avoidance, but with STI, you can shift out of a corner riding shoulder to shoulder in a crit, or while you're climbing out of the saddle or even sprinting out of the saddle with Di2, which seems to be pretty resistant to mishaps when shifting under power. There are a lot of times when you don't want to take your hands off he bars but still want to shift -- like when you are eating or drinking with one hand. I do it all the time when drinking or eating on a climb. All the things you mention I've done and shifted at the same time, except taking off my jacket, which I do no-hands. Pushing my lug of a son, I was frantically shifting with my right hand to avoid stalling on a modest incline. He's big. I agree, if I were racing (especially crits) I'd demand STI. I wonder what percentage of STI-equipped bikes ever see a race. Except you omitted every other benefit I mentioned. STI did make a big difference racing, but it also makes a big difference JRA if you want to shift without having to sit down or when you want to keep hands on the bars or shift with one hand off the bars. It's great climbing because you can keep your hands on the bars and run up the gears one by one without the DT hokey-pokey. I'm constantly getting out of the saddle to grind up some hill and shifting out of the saddle, or I'm sitting down, not wanting to take my hand off the bars climbing local trails, which are part of a normal road ride around here -- getting bounced around over baby heads as the slope increases. OK, STI is not about danger avoidance (although the young racers in that old article claimed it was) and it's very handy for racing (although almost none of the people using it actually race). And it's great for people who constantly stand up to grinding up some hill and want to shift. That's all fine. I rarely, rarely stand to grind up a hill. In fact, unless we're on the tandem, I almost never use my super-low granny gear. I may stand briefly to charge a short uphill, but I don't often need to shift while standing. I have done it occasionally, though, using my bar-end shifters. It's certainly not as easy as STI, but it's doable. I'm a guy who can ride with two, or one, or no hands, who doesn't race and who doesn't frequently shift while standing. I prefer simple mechanisms that are easily repairable in the rare instances that they fail. Obviously, YMMV. -- Nobody is forcing you to use STI. Everybody here can ride with two, one or no hands. Jay has all of the new stuff and doesn't seem to have any problems with it. You must be thinking of someone else. |
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#52
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Latest gear shift tech
On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 15:08:36 -0500,
AMuzi wrote: On 3/19/2021 2:24 PM, Ralph Barone wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/19/2021 12:01 PM, jbeattie wrote: Its not danger avoidance, but with STI, you can shift out of a corner riding shoulder to shoulder in a crit, or while you're climbing out of the saddle or even sprinting out of the saddle with Di2, which seems to be pretty resistant to mishaps when shifting under power. There are a lot of times when you don't want to take your hands off he bars but still want to shift -- like when you are eating or drinking with one hand. I do it all the time when drinking or eating on a climb. All the things you mention I've done and shifted at the same time, except taking off my jacket, which I do no-hands. Pushing my lug of a son, I was frantically shifting with my right hand to avoid stalling on a modest incline. He's big. I agree, if I were racing (especially crits) I'd demand STI. I wonder what percentage of STI-equipped bikes ever see a race. Whenever two cyclists are riding in the same direction on the same road/path/trail, at least one of them is racing. +1 So true. When we're out on the tandem I can without exception tell when my wife first spies a rider ahead by the uptick in power from the back. -- Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA |
#53
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Latest gear shift tech
Op vrijdag 19 maart 2021 om 21:48:47 UTC+1 schreef : On Friday, March 19, 2021 at 1:32:37 PM UTC-7, wrote: Op vrijdag 19 maart 2021 om 20:41:42 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski: On 3/19/2021 1:40 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, March 19, 2021 at 9:21:24 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/19/2021 12:01 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, March 19, 2021 at 8:36:57 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/19/2021 9:23 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, March 18, 2021 at 10:09:35 p.m. UTC-4, John B. wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 20:21:14 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 3/18/2021 5:50 PM, John B. wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:52:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2021 3:26 PM, AMuzi wrote: I remember advertisements for Bendix 2-speed Automatic hubs, "No Pesky Cables!" Shimano achieves that goal differently: https://bikerumor.com/2021/03/16/pat...fting-details/ When did maximum complexity become a bike design goal? But Frank, it avoids the necessity of having to learn such intricate skills as shifting with those infernal manual down tube shifters :-) A note here Eddy Merckz - reckoned by some as the greatest bicycle racer of all times used down tube shifters. http://internationalcyclesport.com/h...1969_bike.html Well, there is that famous Eddy quotation. When presenting Merckx with a bike equipped with the very new DuraAce SIS Six, Mr Shimano said, "You'll never miss a shift!" To which Himself replied, "I haven't missed a shift since I was 12 years old." Along those lines I remember an article comparing "modern" bikes with "old Time" bicycles and some of the riders complaining how "dangerous it was to take one hand off the handle bar to shift". I can't remember the article (Frank probably can) but I do remember how strange I thought it was as I had never owned a multi speed bike that didn't shift on the down tube :-) -- Cheers, John B. I can only imagine how dangerous they think it is to eat whilst riding or to remove or put on a bicycling jacket whilst riding. I guess they use water bags and hose to drink from as it'd be too dangerous to reach for a water bottle and then drink from it whilst riding with just one hand. I believe the article John refers to was the one in which several young racers were asked to compare modern racing bikes with those from the 1980s. (They sang loud praises of more gears, more rigidity, better aero, etc. but their climbing speeds correlated exactly with total weight - a fact the author didn't understand.) Regarding purported "danger" of moving one's hand: How many here have taken off a jacket while riding? Or taken off a rain cape? Thrown rocks at a chasing dog? Pushed another cyclist up a hill? "Ghost ridden" a bike alongside the one you were riding? I've done all those and more. Its not danger avoidance, but with STI, you can shift out of a corner riding shoulder to shoulder in a crit, or while you're climbing out of the saddle or even sprinting out of the saddle with Di2, which seems to be pretty resistant to mishaps when shifting under power. There are a lot of times when you don't want to take your hands off he bars but still want to shift -- like when you are eating or drinking with one hand. I do it all the time when drinking or eating on a climb. All the things you mention I've done and shifted at the same time, except taking off my jacket, which I do no-hands. Pushing my lug of a son, I was frantically shifting with my right hand to avoid stalling on a modest incline. He's big. I agree, if I were racing (especially crits) I'd demand STI. I wonder what percentage of STI-equipped bikes ever see a race. Except you omitted every other benefit I mentioned. STI did make a big difference racing, but it also makes a big difference JRA if you want to shift without having to sit down or when you want to keep hands on the bars or shift with one hand off the bars. It's great climbing because you can keep your hands on the bars and run up the gears one by one without the DT hokey-pokey. I'm constantly getting out of the saddle to grind up some hill and shifting out of the saddle, or I'm sitting down, not wanting to take my hand off the bars climbing local trails, which are part of a normal road ride around here -- getting bounced around over baby heads as the slope increases. OK, STI is not about danger avoidance (although the young racers in that old article claimed it was) and it's very handy for racing (although almost none of the people using it actually race). And it's great for people who constantly stand up to grinding up some hill and want to shift. That's all fine. I rarely, rarely stand to grind up a hill. In fact, unless we're on the tandem, I almost never use my super-low granny gear. I may stand briefly to charge a short uphill, but I don't often need to shift while standing. I have done it occasionally, though, using my bar-end shifters. It's certainly not as easy as STI, but it's doable. I'm a guy who can ride with two, or one, or no hands, who doesn't race and who doesn't frequently shift while standing. I prefer simple mechanisms that are easily repairable in the rare instances that they fail. Obviously, YMMV. -- Nobody is forcing you to use STI. Everybody here can ride with two, one or no hands. Jay has all of the new stuff and doesn't seem to have any problems with it. You must be thinking of someone else. I know. I was not talking to Jay. Lou |
#54
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Latest gear shift tech
On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 12:19:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 3/18/2021 11:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:52:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2021 3:26 PM, AMuzi wrote: I remember advertisements for Bendix 2-speed Automatic hubs, "No Pesky Cables!" Shimano achieves that goal differently: https://bikerumor.com/2021/03/16/pat...fting-details/ When did maximum complexity become a bike design goal? Would a dynamo powered shifting system be acceptable? If not, trade in your dynamo powered headlight and go back to kerosene or carbide lanterns. I wonder if I'm the only one here who has tried riding with an old kerosene headlamp? I bought one at an antique shop and tested it on dark neighborhood streets. It convinced me that people's night vision must have been much better back in those days! Which would have been likely anyway, I suppose. Before Edison, the world was a very dark place indeed, much darker than we're used to. Night vision wasn't hampered by glare from ubiquitous lights. People were accustomed to getting by with lighting that was very dim by our standards. When I was in Japan I rode a bike with incandescent lights and a bottle generator back and forth to work and found it no problem what so ever. Simply ride within the limits of the lights that you have. and I suggest that riding with a kerosene lamp cold be accomplished the same way. -- Cheers, John B. |
#55
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Latest gear shift tech
On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:53:11 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/18/2021 10:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:52:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2021 3:26 PM, AMuzi wrote: I remember advertisements for Bendix 2-speed Automatic hubs, "No Pesky Cables!" Shimano achieves that goal differently: https://bikerumor.com/2021/03/16/pat...fting-details/ When did maximum complexity become a bike design goal? Would a dynamo powered shifting system be acceptable? If not, trade in your dynamo powered headlight and go back to kerosene or carbide lanterns. https://phobia.wikia.org/wiki/Electrophobia There is a place where things are less complexicated. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/in-sight/wp/2018/06/22/inside-the-u-s-s-national-radio-quiet-zone-where-theres-no-wifi-or-cellphone-service/ https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2013/10/08/218976699/enter-the-quiet-zone-where-cell-service-wi-fi-are-banned No cell phones, wi-fi, microwave ovens, ham radio, high power broadcasting, cableTV(?), or wireless bicycle shifting systems. Seems like a Luddites paradise. Why would anyone fear electricity? https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other...ra/ar-BB1exDqU Hardly a unique happening. After all golfers have been warned for years about lightening strikes on the course. Even professional golfers like Lee Trevino, Jerry Heard and Bobby Nichols were hit by lightening... in 1975. -- Cheers, John B. |
#56
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Latest gear shift tech
On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:53:41 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/18/2021 10:19 PM, John B. wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 20:05:30 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:52:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2021 3:26 PM, AMuzi wrote: I remember advertisements for Bendix 2-speed Automatic hubs, "No Pesky Cables!" Shimano achieves that goal differently: https://bikerumor.com/2021/03/16/pat...fting-details/ When did maximum complexity become a bike design goal? Would a dynamo powered shifting system be acceptable? If not, trade in your dynamo powered headlight and go back to kerosene or carbide lanterns. https://phobia.wikia.org/wiki/Electrophobia There is a place where things are less complexicated. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/in-sight/wp/2018/06/22/inside-the-u-s-s-national-radio-quiet-zone-where-theres-no-wifi-or-cellphone-service/ https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2013/10/08/218976699/enter-the-quiet-zone-where-cell-service-wi-fi-are-banned No cell phones, wi-fi, microwave ovens, ham radio, high power broadcasting, cableTV(?), or wireless bicycle shifting systems. Seems like a Luddites paradise. Goodness! There really is life without a smart phone? Works for me. Well, probably you aren't a Twit and therefore don't feel the urge to twitter :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#57
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Latest gear shift tech
On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 06:23:58 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Thursday, March 18, 2021 at 10:09:35 p.m. UTC-4, John B. wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 20:21:14 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 3/18/2021 5:50 PM, John B. wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:52:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2021 3:26 PM, AMuzi wrote: I remember advertisements for Bendix 2-speed Automatic hubs, "No Pesky Cables!" Shimano achieves that goal differently: https://bikerumor.com/2021/03/16/pat...fting-details/ When did maximum complexity become a bike design goal? But Frank, it avoids the necessity of having to learn such intricate skills as shifting with those infernal manual down tube shifters :-) A note here Eddy Merckz - reckoned by some as the greatest bicycle racer of all times used down tube shifters. http://internationalcyclesport.com/h...1969_bike.html Well, there is that famous Eddy quotation. When presenting Merckx with a bike equipped with the very new DuraAce SIS Six, Mr Shimano said, "You'll never miss a shift!" To which Himself replied, "I haven't missed a shift since I was 12 years old." Along those lines I remember an article comparing "modern" bikes with "old Time" bicycles and some of the riders complaining how "dangerous it was to take one hand off the handle bar to shift". I can't remember the article (Frank probably can) but I do remember how strange I thought it was as I had never owned a multi speed bike that didn't shift on the down tube :-) -- Cheers, John B. I can only imagine how dangerous they think it is to eat whilst riding or to remove or put on a bicycling jacket whilst riding. I guess they use water bags and hose to drink from as it'd be too dangerous to reach for a water bottle and then drink from it whilst riding with just one hand. Cheers Or, The Gods Forbid! Use their hand phone. -- Cheers, John B. |
#58
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Latest gear shift tech
On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:51:24 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/18/2021 9:56 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, March 18, 2021 at 6:30:42 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2021 9:05 PM, James wrote: On 19/3/21 9:50 am, John B. wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:52:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2021 3:26 PM, AMuzi wrote: I remember advertisements for Bendix 2-speed Automatic hubs, "No Pesky Cables!" Shimano achieves that goal differently: https://bikerumor.com/2021/03/16/pat...fting-details/ When did maximum complexity become a bike design goal? But Frank, it avoids the necessity of having to learn such intricate skills as shifting with those infernal manual down tube shifters :-) A note here Eddy Merckz - reckoned by some as the greatest bicycle racer of all times used down tube shifters. http://internationalcyclesport.com/h...1969_bike.html If Eddy was a true believer in down tube shifters, surely his range of bicycles sold today would reflect that? https://www.eddymerckx.com/ Well, since hairs always require splitting he 1) Perhaps Eddy _was_ a true believer in down tube shifters (compared to what? Rod shifters? Bar end shifters?) but _now_ has a different opinion. 2) Or perhaps Eddy still personally prefers down tube shifters (there are those who do) but realizes that he'd sell far fewer bikes if that was the default on his bikes. More seriously, I don't know how enthusiastic Eddy was about technology changes back in his glory days. Perhaps he wasn't much interested? Unlike say LeMond, he didn't seem to need technological advances to win. A few decades before the Merckx era, races were won and lost based on who did or didn't have a derailleur. During the Merckx era, technology was drillium and maybe a Ti bit and tires. Merckx didn't have a lot of choices, although he apparently believed in the magic of frame builders, considering his allegiance to Ugo, unless he just likes the guy. As for the over-all effect of technology, TdF average speeds are 2-4 mph average over the early Merckx years. It could be better drugs. Who knows. LeMond's belief in technology got him the win in 1989 -- or Fignon's disbelief cost him the race. Some technology makes a big difference for civilians -- and a lot not. I love STI. Electronic is not a game changer for me. It's kind of neat. Clincher technology is now great, having tried everything starting with the first Elans and Turbos. It probably wasn't until 20 years ago that they really caught up with tubulars. I like discs on my rain bike and commuter. Compact and lots of gears are mitigating my decrepitude and bad knees. I couldn't turn the gears I rode thirty years ago. Ebikes have my wife riding again -- along with a bunch of the old ladies in the neighborhood. It's like ebike old-lady gangs. -- Jay Beattie. You're old enough to remember when the advent of integrated shifters changed race tactics forever. Not seeing a hand reach down to shift allowed a split second advantage. Yes, for all the modern "need" for handlebar mounted shifters the first article I read about the "new shifters" had a comment by a professional racer that it, as you say, gave him an advantage of being able to shift without "the other guy" seeing him. -- Cheers, John B. |
#59
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Latest gear shift tech
On 3/19/2021 6:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 12:19:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2021 11:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:52:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2021 3:26 PM, AMuzi wrote: I remember advertisements for Bendix 2-speed Automatic hubs, "No Pesky Cables!" Shimano achieves that goal differently: https://bikerumor.com/2021/03/16/pat...fting-details/ When did maximum complexity become a bike design goal? Would a dynamo powered shifting system be acceptable? If not, trade in your dynamo powered headlight and go back to kerosene or carbide lanterns. I wonder if I'm the only one here who has tried riding with an old kerosene headlamp? I bought one at an antique shop and tested it on dark neighborhood streets. It convinced me that people's night vision must have been much better back in those days! Which would have been likely anyway, I suppose. Before Edison, the world was a very dark place indeed, much darker than we're used to. Night vision wasn't hampered by glare from ubiquitous lights. People were accustomed to getting by with lighting that was very dim by our standards. When I was in Japan I rode a bike with incandescent lights and a bottle generator back and forth to work and found it no problem what so ever. Simply ride within the limits of the lights that you have. and I suggest that riding with a kerosene lamp cold be accomplished the same way. My first dyno light was an oddball Soubitez with the headlight built into the dyno shell. That's a bad idea, because proper alignment for the dyno is very seldom proper alignment for the headlight. But I was poor and that's what I found in the salvage store. And of course, the bulb was a dim vacuum bulb, not even halogen. It functioned well enough as a "be seen" light in the city. But if I took the quieter roads home from work at night, it was dismal. That route involved climbing then descending a steep wooded hill. I remember riding my brakes hard all the way down to avoid overrunning the beam. No fun at all. By contrast, I _love_ modern LED headlights with StVZO optics. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#60
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Latest gear shift tech
On 3/19/2021 6:49 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/19/2021 6:44 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 12:19:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2021 11:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:52:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2021 3:26 PM, AMuzi wrote: I remember advertisements for Bendix 2-speed Automatic hubs, "No Pesky Cables!" Shimano achieves that goal differently: https://bikerumor.com/2021/03/16/pat...fting-details/ When did maximum complexity become a bike design goal? Would a dynamo powered shifting system be acceptable? If not, trade in your dynamo powered headlight and go back to kerosene or carbide lanterns. I wonder if I'm the only one here who has tried riding with an old kerosene headlamp? I bought one at an antique shop and tested it on dark neighborhood streets. It convinced me that people's night vision must have been much better back in those days! Which would have been likely anyway, I suppose. Before Edison, the world was a very dark place indeed, much darker than we're used to. Night vision wasn't hampered by glare from ubiquitous lights. People were accustomed to getting by with lighting that was very dim by our standards. When I was in Japan I rode a bike with incandescent lights and a bottle generator back and forth to work and found it no problem what so ever. Simply ride within the limits of the lights that you have. and I suggest that riding with a kerosene lamp cold be accomplished the same way. My first dyno light was an oddball Soubitez with the headlight built into the dyno shell. That's a bad idea, because proper alignment for the dyno is very seldom proper alignment for the headlight. But I was poor and that's what I found in the salvage store. And of course, the bulb was a dim vacuum bulb, not even halogen. It functioned well enough as a "be seen" light in the city. But if I took the quieter roads home from work at night, it was dismal. That route involved climbing then descending a steep wooded hill. I remember riding my brakes hard all the way down to avoid overrunning the beam. No fun at all. By contrast, I _love_ modern LED headlights with StVZO optics. Glass incandescent 6v are indeed not all that bright. Enough for me but situations taste and opinions vary. Both the classic 1960s Soubitez aluminum CL-89 and the later chromoplastic CA-120 have a beam aim adjustment. It's under the bulb and lens. A nut fastens shaped washers (not unlike V brake pad spacers) for height and lateral adjustment of the bulb housing. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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